Working Life After Flying
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Doctor here. Reading these posts I felt that I had to comment.
Firstly I would like to thank all of you that are part of project wingman. I work on a COVID-19 ward and it is extremely heartening to have a cup of coffee and de-stress. Quite a number of my colleagues have been off sick and it plays upon one's mind as to when one will catch it and what affect it will have, so a cup of tea and a welcome smile is most appreciated. I feel great empathy for all of you at an uncertain time.
For me it was a decision between Medical School and Flying in 2012. For a variety of reasons I chose medicine.
Reading these posts, I thought it a good idea to share some of my experiences.
Between applying to medical school and starting the course takes a year if you are successful at first application.
Medical school is competitive, but as mature students and professionals you will be looked on favourably.
In the interim you could do a Masters degree, volunteering or similar.
It is a minimum of 4 years of medical school. You can only apply for 4 medical schools per year. The five year courses are less competitive than the 4 years courses.
If you are sufficiency well heeled there is a private medical school based in the UK which will allow you to short-circuit the admissions cycle. Be warned it expensive. You could consider an Eastern European course but there are questions around medical degree reciprocity after Brexit - so be warned that if you study there your degree MAY not be recognised by the GMC after we leave Europe.
Medical school is hard but enjoyable. On completing your medical studies you then apply for your 'foundation training' which is a 2 year course. You gain your licence to practice after the first year.
Your pay is as follows:
England - starting £28k
Scotland - £24k plus an intensity supplement (banding), of between 0 - 100%.
BMA has the pay scales - I can't post links.
This is for 48 hours on average per week, averaged out over 6 months.
FY1 and 2 are the hardest. In FY1 regularly pulled 100 hour weeks because the ward was understaffed and I felt that I had to stay. In retrospect I was perhaps slow and inefficient. In my first 4 month rotation of FY1 I drank a bottle of wine a night to cope with the stress. Often during the day I went without breaks.
There are lots of night shifts (12 hours typically 20.00 - 08.00). You do not sleep during your shift.
You can be based at any hospital for your FY1+2 and you are often moved between them, without much control. It is not unusual to have a 1 hour commute each way plus a 12 hour night shift. I have been woken up by the rumble strips driving home on more than one occasion. Now we are limited to 4 night shifts which is more reasonable.
Mid-way thought FY2 you apply to your speciality, ranking training programmes across the county. If you are lucky and do well at selection you will have a programme close to you but again you will be required to commute to different hospitals for training.
During your speciality training your salary increases to £33k in Scotland, £38k in England. There are uplifts for nights etc, depending on which country you work in.
The minimum time for speciality training is 3 years for GP. For any other specialty it is between 5-8+ years plus sub-specialty training.
GPs are independent contractors and can expect to earn £450-550 per day locum (zero hours) rates, or £80k+ as a salaried GP. Partners own their own practices and earn about £100k - you can increase this, sometime significantly, if you are prepared to travel and undertake night or out of hours extra work.
Consultants start on £80k and through a system of incremental annual rises progress to about £120k over the course of their careers. There is limited scope for private work outside of london and procedural specialties such as orthopaedic surgery for example. Consultants can locum over and above their annual contract.
On balance, it will take you a minimum of 11 years from today to become a GP, and a minimum of 13 years to be a consultant.
Being a doctor is a unique privilege, however from a purely financial perspective I cannot say that it is a good move and indeed I regretted my choice on a number of occasions. Mainly after a string of night shifts or on occasions where I have had to miss family events due to poor rota management.
Hope this is informative.
Firstly I would like to thank all of you that are part of project wingman. I work on a COVID-19 ward and it is extremely heartening to have a cup of coffee and de-stress. Quite a number of my colleagues have been off sick and it plays upon one's mind as to when one will catch it and what affect it will have, so a cup of tea and a welcome smile is most appreciated. I feel great empathy for all of you at an uncertain time.
For me it was a decision between Medical School and Flying in 2012. For a variety of reasons I chose medicine.
Reading these posts, I thought it a good idea to share some of my experiences.
Between applying to medical school and starting the course takes a year if you are successful at first application.
Medical school is competitive, but as mature students and professionals you will be looked on favourably.
In the interim you could do a Masters degree, volunteering or similar.
It is a minimum of 4 years of medical school. You can only apply for 4 medical schools per year. The five year courses are less competitive than the 4 years courses.
If you are sufficiency well heeled there is a private medical school based in the UK which will allow you to short-circuit the admissions cycle. Be warned it expensive. You could consider an Eastern European course but there are questions around medical degree reciprocity after Brexit - so be warned that if you study there your degree MAY not be recognised by the GMC after we leave Europe.
Medical school is hard but enjoyable. On completing your medical studies you then apply for your 'foundation training' which is a 2 year course. You gain your licence to practice after the first year.
Your pay is as follows:
England - starting £28k
Scotland - £24k plus an intensity supplement (banding), of between 0 - 100%.
BMA has the pay scales - I can't post links.
This is for 48 hours on average per week, averaged out over 6 months.
FY1 and 2 are the hardest. In FY1 regularly pulled 100 hour weeks because the ward was understaffed and I felt that I had to stay. In retrospect I was perhaps slow and inefficient. In my first 4 month rotation of FY1 I drank a bottle of wine a night to cope with the stress. Often during the day I went without breaks.
There are lots of night shifts (12 hours typically 20.00 - 08.00). You do not sleep during your shift.
You can be based at any hospital for your FY1+2 and you are often moved between them, without much control. It is not unusual to have a 1 hour commute each way plus a 12 hour night shift. I have been woken up by the rumble strips driving home on more than one occasion. Now we are limited to 4 night shifts which is more reasonable.
Mid-way thought FY2 you apply to your speciality, ranking training programmes across the county. If you are lucky and do well at selection you will have a programme close to you but again you will be required to commute to different hospitals for training.
During your speciality training your salary increases to £33k in Scotland, £38k in England. There are uplifts for nights etc, depending on which country you work in.
The minimum time for speciality training is 3 years for GP. For any other specialty it is between 5-8+ years plus sub-specialty training.
GPs are independent contractors and can expect to earn £450-550 per day locum (zero hours) rates, or £80k+ as a salaried GP. Partners own their own practices and earn about £100k - you can increase this, sometime significantly, if you are prepared to travel and undertake night or out of hours extra work.
Consultants start on £80k and through a system of incremental annual rises progress to about £120k over the course of their careers. There is limited scope for private work outside of london and procedural specialties such as orthopaedic surgery for example. Consultants can locum over and above their annual contract.
On balance, it will take you a minimum of 11 years from today to become a GP, and a minimum of 13 years to be a consultant.
Being a doctor is a unique privilege, however from a purely financial perspective I cannot say that it is a good move and indeed I regretted my choice on a number of occasions. Mainly after a string of night shifts or on occasions where I have had to miss family events due to poor rota management.
Hope this is informative.
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Thanks for the in-depth post.
The one thing I would be asking my fellow pilots... should pilots really thinking about going down the medicine route unless they have a passion for it?
Would it be wrong to go down that route purely for financial reasons and not because you have a passion or interest in medicine?
The one thing I would be asking my fellow pilots... should pilots really thinking about going down the medicine route unless they have a passion for it?
Would it be wrong to go down that route purely for financial reasons and not because you have a passion or interest in medicine?
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Disregarding the fact that I personally know cases of doctors who are professional pilots or the other way around, I wonder how we ended up talking about such a drastic career change when we are supposed to be flying out of passion?
Last edited by bringbackthe80s; 9th May 2020 at 02:37.
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Who says we are supposed to be flying out of passion?
Where does this bizarre notion comes from that you should only be a pilot if you have a burning passion for all things aviation? I'm doing it because I get (got) paid well over £100k a year while having more time off than I would in the majority of other jobs. I wouldn't change career if I didn't have to because it means a hit to my family's lifestyle, at least in the short term and possibly permanently. It looks like circumstances will dictate a career change is necessary. I won't miss flying, but I will certainly miss the salary and the time off.
Unless you're lucky enough to do something you really enjoy, which doesn't apply to the majority of people, you work to give you the lifestyle you want and nothing more than that.
Where does this bizarre notion comes from that you should only be a pilot if you have a burning passion for all things aviation? I'm doing it because I get (got) paid well over £100k a year while having more time off than I would in the majority of other jobs. I wouldn't change career if I didn't have to because it means a hit to my family's lifestyle, at least in the short term and possibly permanently. It looks like circumstances will dictate a career change is necessary. I won't miss flying, but I will certainly miss the salary and the time off.
Unless you're lucky enough to do something you really enjoy, which doesn't apply to the majority of people, you work to give you the lifestyle you want and nothing more than that.
Great Resource
“What color is your parachute” (not a typo, US spelling) by Richard N Bolles is THE book to read for would-be career changers. Updated, sometimes substantially, every year so there is a 2020 edition on booksellers websites but a - recent - cheap second hand copy would do. I found one top tip in it for me, which worked - twice! So it repaid its cost a thousand fold. All the airlines I have ever worked for went bust - although the last one not until three years after I retired so I’m glad I am not in your boat but I was, more than once. Good luck and persevere.
Last edited by twinboom; 8th May 2020 at 09:33. Reason: Bolles
After the Thomas Cook collapse last year, a few guys decided to jack it in and do either something they had done in the past or pursue something new. At least 2 have gone for financial services, a couple back to LA Instructing, consultancy for CRM and a few more avenues I can't remember. The problem is that not many alternatives pay even close to a SFO's salary let alone a Captains, but needs must etc. and I doubt many will miss the working environment of 21st century aviation.
Consider Business Analysis
Some of you are considering a career-change. I've been there... twice. My only tip is "try to put the emotion to one side and do the next right thing, one day at a time." I know: easier said than done, but you've all done the odd missed approach -- just do the next right thing step by step; the alternative is messy and expensive.
The IT field has been mentioned here, but here's one to consider: Business Analysis. It doesn't have to be in IT, business analysts are popping up throughout the commercial world these days: and the basic qualification can be gained in three to six months: https://www.theknowledgeacademy.com/...ysis-training/
I chose Business Analysis because it is one of the jobs that can not be automated out of existence in the near future. It's mainly contract consulting work, so relatively well-paid.
And the commercial heavy-jet aircraft captains I have met would do it superbly. Among the leading requirements:
Since most of the responses here are from UK members, I picked a UK training organisation -- I don't know if they're any good or not. The international meal-ticket is a Practitioner membership of the International Institute of Business Analysts. To find out which are your good local schools, ring one or two large companies locally and ask to speak to their Lead Business Analyst, tell them why you want to know, then ask them what they would recommend. Don't be thrown by the Indian accent: nearly all the good ones are Indian
Sometimes the switchboard won't know who their chief business analyst is: in which case ask for the Chief Information Officer, their assistant will know.
Hope this helps
The IT field has been mentioned here, but here's one to consider: Business Analysis. It doesn't have to be in IT, business analysts are popping up throughout the commercial world these days: and the basic qualification can be gained in three to six months: https://www.theknowledgeacademy.com/...ysis-training/
I chose Business Analysis because it is one of the jobs that can not be automated out of existence in the near future. It's mainly contract consulting work, so relatively well-paid.
And the commercial heavy-jet aircraft captains I have met would do it superbly. Among the leading requirements:
- Ability to negotiate at a very senior level
- Ability to lead a team to a good outcome when one or more idiots are trying to derail the project
- Ability to work effectively both independently and as a team member
- An analytical approach
- Good attention to detail
- Sufficient humility to keep asking "what makes you say that? Please explain what you want the outcome to be?"
- Sufficient intelligence/imagination to be able to forsee an outcome three or four steps into the future
- Sufficient core inner strength to avoid being browbeaten into doing something wrong when some stuffed-shirt oxygen thief is trying to pull rank (without getting fired!)
Since most of the responses here are from UK members, I picked a UK training organisation -- I don't know if they're any good or not. The international meal-ticket is a Practitioner membership of the International Institute of Business Analysts. To find out which are your good local schools, ring one or two large companies locally and ask to speak to their Lead Business Analyst, tell them why you want to know, then ask them what they would recommend. Don't be thrown by the Indian accent: nearly all the good ones are Indian
Sometimes the switchboard won't know who their chief business analyst is: in which case ask for the Chief Information Officer, their assistant will know.Hope this helps
Last edited by JohnMcGhie; 10th May 2020 at 01:12. Reason: Added "independence" as an attribute for success
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There are a lot of us train drivers who initially wanted a flying career but saw the cost and moved our ambitions to the railways. I did mention train driving in another virus-related flying careers thread, though since this is focused non-flying careers, it's probably better that I continue here and leave the other one to aviation.
As realECMLdriver has said, there are difficulties in training new drivers at the moment. Most parts of the training process require, at some stage, delivery in a practical environment and the various parties will need time to work out how to deliver the training whilst minimising risk. Some companies are still advertising (Avanti did very recently) for trainee drivers because the recruitment process is long, it can take many months, even a good year or so. The railway is slow when it comes to recruitment.
The recruitment process usually starts with an online application/sift that may involve some fairly basic aptitude/personality tests. Take a look at the 7 Non-Technical Skills published by the Rail Safety and Standards Board (RSSB), these are highly relevant. In particular, they are looking people who value safety, stick to the rules rules and who are honest.
Next up are the main aptitude tests. To obtain a train driving licence which permits you to drive trains on Network Rail infrastructure, you must pass all of these tests. The interview referred to above where they ask you how things make you feel etc. is technically one of these tests, it's known as a Multi-Modal Interview (MMI). It's competency-based but they will put you under a lot of pressure and interrupt a lot, It's done by a psychologist so they aren't to be fooled. You must pass all of the tests (about ten I think these days) to the national standard to make it through to the next stage. One fail results in a failed sitting and if you fail two sittings you cannot re-apply as a trainee driver for any train company which uses Network Rail infrastructure. The pass rate historically was something like 10%, preparation is absolutely vital and many who pass prepare thoroughly. Many train companies set standards higher than the national minimum, however failing to meet these doesn't count towards the "two strikes and you're out" rule. Your test passes are valid for up to five years so you can take them from one company to another, few companies will recognise them for more than three years. You are not directly competing against others during these aptitude tests
Next up is usually the management interview (though some places leave the MMI till last). There's no limit as to how many you can sit though of course individual companies may prevent you from reapplying to them for say six months or a year. It's basically an exercise to see if your face fits and you are competing with others. Some places have tried to impose demographic quotas but these seem to be unpopular with drivers and local management.
The last thing is the medical, this will be arranged by your prospective employer and will be done by their provider. I'd say it's similar to a Class 2 but stricter in some areas and less so in others.
Bear in mind that train companies pay for training which in itself takes at least a year and costs the company north of £100k. In the vast majority of cases and they will expect a return of service, so only apply if you don't plan on returning to flying any time soon. Places like LNER, Avanti and Cross Country in particular tend to see very few drivers leave.
Fecking how?!?!, there are signals to follow...there are signals for learner drivers...it's not rocket science FFS, care to enlighten us what takes a years worth of training to recognise the diff between a green and a red light?
As realECMLdriver has said, there are difficulties in training new drivers at the moment. Most parts of the training process require, at some stage, delivery in a practical environment and the various parties will need time to work out how to deliver the training whilst minimising risk. Some companies are still advertising (Avanti did very recently) for trainee drivers because the recruitment process is long, it can take many months, even a good year or so. The railway is slow when it comes to recruitment.
The recruitment process usually starts with an online application/sift that may involve some fairly basic aptitude/personality tests. Take a look at the 7 Non-Technical Skills published by the Rail Safety and Standards Board (RSSB), these are highly relevant. In particular, they are looking people who value safety, stick to the rules rules and who are honest.
Next up are the main aptitude tests. To obtain a train driving licence which permits you to drive trains on Network Rail infrastructure, you must pass all of these tests. The interview referred to above where they ask you how things make you feel etc. is technically one of these tests, it's known as a Multi-Modal Interview (MMI). It's competency-based but they will put you under a lot of pressure and interrupt a lot, It's done by a psychologist so they aren't to be fooled. You must pass all of the tests (about ten I think these days) to the national standard to make it through to the next stage. One fail results in a failed sitting and if you fail two sittings you cannot re-apply as a trainee driver for any train company which uses Network Rail infrastructure. The pass rate historically was something like 10%, preparation is absolutely vital and many who pass prepare thoroughly. Many train companies set standards higher than the national minimum, however failing to meet these doesn't count towards the "two strikes and you're out" rule. Your test passes are valid for up to five years so you can take them from one company to another, few companies will recognise them for more than three years. You are not directly competing against others during these aptitude tests
Next up is usually the management interview (though some places leave the MMI till last). There's no limit as to how many you can sit though of course individual companies may prevent you from reapplying to them for say six months or a year. It's basically an exercise to see if your face fits and you are competing with others. Some places have tried to impose demographic quotas but these seem to be unpopular with drivers and local management.
The last thing is the medical, this will be arranged by your prospective employer and will be done by their provider. I'd say it's similar to a Class 2 but stricter in some areas and less so in others.
Bear in mind that train companies pay for training which in itself takes at least a year and costs the company north of £100k. In the vast majority of cases and they will expect a return of service, so only apply if you don't plan on returning to flying any time soon. Places like LNER, Avanti and Cross Country in particular tend to see very few drivers leave.
Fecking how?!?!, there are signals to follow...there are signals for learner drivers...it's not rocket science FFS, care to enlighten us what takes a years worth of training to recognise the diff between a green and a red light?
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Not being a train driver myself, I imagine that it's not as simple as learning the difference between a red light and a green light. Trains are big and complex machines and presumably a driver needs to know a thing or two about how they work and what can go wrong. Then you have the tracks and infrastructure - all the power systems, signals, junctions etc. There's probably extensive training in human factors and safety as well. While many of the concepts behind the aforementioned are familiar to pilots at least to some extent, do bear in mind that courses are designed for those who don't have any extensive technical background. And then it's the practical part, which is likely dependent on instructor availability, just as airline line training. And you would probably need one to know what they are doing and be confident when releasing them to drive a train across the country all by themselves and with a couple of hundreds of people in the back.
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But all these things - are they really sitting around thinking “ damn, what my industry needs is a load of ex pilots “.
TBH, I think 90% of jobs will not achieve nearly the same pay, or excitement
TBH, I think 90% of jobs will not achieve nearly the same pay, or excitement
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Fliegenmong
A lot of what you learn at the training school covers what to do if something goes wrong, there are certain situations where you can pass a signal at danger, especially on Absolute Block signalling, and certain times when you can't. You need to be able to working arrangements which can keep the railway running when parts of the system aren't working properly and also in an outright emergency, such as a derailment or a fire in a closed environment. Then there's traction knowledge, if the train breaks down in a fairly remote area or on a very busy section of track, the driver is probably going to be the best person to try and fix it.
Then there's practical handling, you have to memorise the speeds, braking points and the which signal indications you can take in normal working and which ones you can't, in Absolute Block territory it gets a bit more complex as well. You have to be consistent, in a day you might stop at 80-90 stations, that's nearly 20,000 per year when you work out the shift patterns etc. One mistake such as stopping short and opening the doors goes on your record forever. One incident per year is considered far too high, there's many drivers who've been out 15-20 years and never had an incident. Then you throw in train dispatch responsibilities now that the government wants rid of the guards, plus situations like low-adhesion and you do have to be on your toes. It's a repetitive job but it's not necessarily easy, once you're qualified you've got no-one next to you to spot any errors you may make either.
For those who don't like any of the suggestions made so far, the maximum age for off-the-street Fleet Air Arm pilots is now 34, though I don't know if they'd want people with extensive flying habits. Then the military lifestyle and commitments would suit some but not others.
Also, I reckon that when people get a taxi, they'd probably want one with a partition, so I wouldn't be surprised if the good old Hackney Cab started to regain some of the ground it lost to the "ride-sharing" world. The Knowledge is far from easy, so I hear, but there's apparently still quite a lot of money to be had. It's probably much easier to clean the passenger compartment between trips as well, when compared to a conventional car.
A lot of what you learn at the training school covers what to do if something goes wrong, there are certain situations where you can pass a signal at danger, especially on Absolute Block signalling, and certain times when you can't. You need to be able to working arrangements which can keep the railway running when parts of the system aren't working properly and also in an outright emergency, such as a derailment or a fire in a closed environment. Then there's traction knowledge, if the train breaks down in a fairly remote area or on a very busy section of track, the driver is probably going to be the best person to try and fix it.
Then there's practical handling, you have to memorise the speeds, braking points and the which signal indications you can take in normal working and which ones you can't, in Absolute Block territory it gets a bit more complex as well. You have to be consistent, in a day you might stop at 80-90 stations, that's nearly 20,000 per year when you work out the shift patterns etc. One mistake such as stopping short and opening the doors goes on your record forever. One incident per year is considered far too high, there's many drivers who've been out 15-20 years and never had an incident. Then you throw in train dispatch responsibilities now that the government wants rid of the guards, plus situations like low-adhesion and you do have to be on your toes. It's a repetitive job but it's not necessarily easy, once you're qualified you've got no-one next to you to spot any errors you may make either.
For those who don't like any of the suggestions made so far, the maximum age for off-the-street Fleet Air Arm pilots is now 34, though I don't know if they'd want people with extensive flying habits. Then the military lifestyle and commitments would suit some but not others.
Also, I reckon that when people get a taxi, they'd probably want one with a partition, so I wouldn't be surprised if the good old Hackney Cab started to regain some of the ground it lost to the "ride-sharing" world. The Knowledge is far from easy, so I hear, but there's apparently still quite a lot of money to be had. It's probably much easier to clean the passenger compartment between trips as well, when compared to a conventional car.
Last edited by Chris the Robot; 11th May 2020 at 10:16.
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Are you really thinking that anyone is looking forward to hire pilots with an ATPL and an online course?
You'll be competing with guys more qualified and with more experience...I can tolerate bus/train driving, but when I read "project management" and stuff like that...Jesus...do you even know what project management is? You need to know the industry, the processes and to have at least two years of EXPERIENCE in a specific field before even dreaming of being able to work in a project management team, let alone being the project manager.
Any "project management", "six sigma", "5S", "8D" can teach you the methodology, but you'll still need working experience be able to do anything remotely useful.
You'll be competing with guys more qualified and with more experience...I can tolerate bus/train driving, but when I read "project management" and stuff like that...Jesus...do you even know what project management is? You need to know the industry, the processes and to have at least two years of EXPERIENCE in a specific field before even dreaming of being able to work in a project management team, let alone being the project manager.
Any "project management", "six sigma", "5S", "8D" can teach you the methodology, but you'll still need working experience be able to do anything remotely useful.
Last edited by bulldog89; 11th May 2020 at 14:46.
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Nope, not thinking that at all.
Maybe we have a very different understanding of what a Project Manager is or does. There are junior roles too. My angle was the IT one and after working 10 years full-time in IT and another 8 or so alongside my flying career, I've seen pretty much every role at every level. I've worked alongside former nurses, beauticians, firemen and panel beaters who were afforded their first IT opportunity at the place I met them. There's no denying that most professional vocations are difficult to enter without experience but what are you saying? that graduates don't ever get such roles? Also, not every opportunity is sourced via an open to the public application form. Hint hint.
Clearly, not everyone is going to get a job as A, B or C. My angle is simple.... Most pilots are very ambitious, great communicators, excellent networkers and quick learners. If we want to move out of aviation or even just want to diversify our skillset, we have attributes that make our success more likely than most others.
Maybe we have a very different understanding of what a Project Manager is or does. There are junior roles too. My angle was the IT one and after working 10 years full-time in IT and another 8 or so alongside my flying career, I've seen pretty much every role at every level. I've worked alongside former nurses, beauticians, firemen and panel beaters who were afforded their first IT opportunity at the place I met them. There's no denying that most professional vocations are difficult to enter without experience but what are you saying? that graduates don't ever get such roles? Also, not every opportunity is sourced via an open to the public application form. Hint hint.
Clearly, not everyone is going to get a job as A, B or C. My angle is simple.... Most pilots are very ambitious, great communicators, excellent networkers and quick learners. If we want to move out of aviation or even just want to diversify our skillset, we have attributes that make our success more likely than most others.
Not the attributes to have a ready made plan B though?
