IAG: BA restructuring may cost 12,000 jobs
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In case anyone's interested there's an analysis from Lex in this morning's FT on how small the savings would actually be - BA job cuts: peanut analogy | Financial Times
(Suspect was written before letter to BALPA became public)
(Suspect was written before letter to BALPA became public)
Last edited by Andy D; 30th Apr 2020 at 10:28. Reason: typo
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That £2Bn (or whatever the cash reserve is ) will evaporate like snow off a dyke if they don't make radical cuts. Every airline is in a similar position.
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No airline in the world is going to survive this crisis without government aid.
Willie Walsh is either in denial about that and will eventually have to accept the inevitable, or he would rather see the whole enterprise fold and start over again.
Willie Walsh is either in denial about that and will eventually have to accept the inevitable, or he would rather see the whole enterprise fold and start over again.
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There is a VERY important theme in these Posts:
How can someone be labeled as 'pension rich'? Has anyone looked into what has been happening to pension funds so far this year? I think that a lot of people's pension planning is being rather shaken up at the moment.
I have been at the end of "you younger guys have lots of time ahead of you to build up a pension somewhere else" comment when turfed out due to redundancy (those exact words ere used to me personally) so I can understand that end of the problem. I am now older and I can understand Fly747's and Rt Hon Jim Hacker MP's situations. Probably the most important point is Rt Hon Jim Hacker MP's "...the inconvenient gap of two years between compulsory retirement at 65 and getting my state pension at 67." That is not only a problem that older pilots will be facing shortly but with the way the industry appears to be going as a whole, those in their 20s now could well be banging their heads against exactly that problem, or an even bigger gap, in future years.
I have been VERY fortunate to have continued flying 'as normal' (although nothing is normal now!). Taxiing past rows of aeroplanes parked and sealed up at almost every airport in several countries and walking through empty terminals with everything closed and almost no lights on, some even becoming dusty after having been thriving terminals only a short while ago, is very, very, very sobering (and weird). If you haven't been able to see it, you probably don't really want to. This problem is much, much bigger than any one of your airlines, no matter how big they are. Best not to become lonely individualists bickering about what someone else might or might not be doing. A lot of pilots are going to be in very 'fragile' situations. Trying to understand each other and if possible support each other would be the most helpful way ahead.
How can someone be labeled as 'pension rich'? Has anyone looked into what has been happening to pension funds so far this year? I think that a lot of people's pension planning is being rather shaken up at the moment.
I have been at the end of "you younger guys have lots of time ahead of you to build up a pension somewhere else" comment when turfed out due to redundancy (those exact words ere used to me personally) so I can understand that end of the problem. I am now older and I can understand Fly747's and Rt Hon Jim Hacker MP's situations. Probably the most important point is Rt Hon Jim Hacker MP's "...the inconvenient gap of two years between compulsory retirement at 65 and getting my state pension at 67." That is not only a problem that older pilots will be facing shortly but with the way the industry appears to be going as a whole, those in their 20s now could well be banging their heads against exactly that problem, or an even bigger gap, in future years.
I have been VERY fortunate to have continued flying 'as normal' (although nothing is normal now!). Taxiing past rows of aeroplanes parked and sealed up at almost every airport in several countries and walking through empty terminals with everything closed and almost no lights on, some even becoming dusty after having been thriving terminals only a short while ago, is very, very, very sobering (and weird). If you haven't been able to see it, you probably don't really want to. This problem is much, much bigger than any one of your airlines, no matter how big they are. Best not to become lonely individualists bickering about what someone else might or might not be doing. A lot of pilots are going to be in very 'fragile' situations. Trying to understand each other and if possible support each other would be the most helpful way ahead.
Distinguish what the company 'needs' as opposed to what they 'want'.
- alternatives to pilot redundancy: part time / job share, unpaid leave, VR/VS (not statutory)
- furlough as opposed to redundancy as a last resort, rehire in seniority when the time comes.
Stick together and support each other.
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Guys, when the oil price fell from $100+ to circa $60, a few years ago, the UK lost 120,000 O&G jobs. Not much was said about that but the prospect of 3,000 steel jobs going got a lot of attention
With CV-19 O&G anticipate another 30,000 UK jobs going, from about 150,000.
Life in general and in business can be a bitch, sh1te happens. Nobody owes anyone else a job for life.
Please stop blaming each other or the business. Prepare yourselves as best you can for your own sake and that of your families
With CV-19 O&G anticipate another 30,000 UK jobs going, from about 150,000.
Life in general and in business can be a bitch, sh1te happens. Nobody owes anyone else a job for life.
Please stop blaming each other or the business. Prepare yourselves as best you can for your own sake and that of your families
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We need to collectively question the government on the science behind this lockdown. The cure is worse than the disease. It’s costing the economy greatly and fundamentally our livelihood.
There are plenty of other credible scientists who do not buy into the doom gloom forecasts of Dr Fauci and Neil Furguson. Why are these voices not being reported by the mainstream media.
Good luck to all.
There are plenty of other credible scientists who do not buy into the doom gloom forecasts of Dr Fauci and Neil Furguson. Why are these voices not being reported by the mainstream media.
Good luck to all.
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The problem is the UK government ignored the science initially, relied on dodgy behavioural models, then did a U turn and now the UK is a lot worse off than most other countries.
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The media is not telling the other side of the story.
Last edited by SADDLER; 30th Apr 2020 at 14:02. Reason: Don’t want to get involved in a slanging Match,with hindsight.
The indisputable fact that the lockdown has a massive economic cost doesn't have any bearing on whether or not the science behind it is sound.
The U.K. politicos do seem to be risk averse now, probably after the outcry following the herd immunity policy. I see similarities with the volcanic ash cloud where nobody wanted to make the decision to lift the restrictions until WW launched a load of us off back into U.K. airspace. I still remember various control centres passing the buck stating we were flying into known ash cloud airspace and any responsibility would be mine. Seemed they weren’t too concerned about safety; rather, they didn’t want to shoulder the blame if it all went wrong.
I Have Control
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No apology here. I flew with quite a few boring 60 + guys in the left seat who insisted on telling me the size of their pension funds and investments, about their mortgage-free property, and then inform me of their 2012 bangers they drove to the airport to save money. And the bloody DIY they did to save their wealth from greedy tradesmen. There were at least 20 of these thoughtless individuals that I can recall. They were the ones who I wish had retired early and left the opportunities for the younger ones, especially when VR was on the table. None of them did, and I considered them selfish. They were no pleasure to fly with, even though they were all competent.
That was who my post was aimed at, at I know BA have plenty of these in their ranks. Others leaping to their own defence are wasting their time here.
And I am retired, reasonably comfortably, so have no interest personally in keeping my job/seniority.
Wealthy pilots, retire now.
That was who my post was aimed at, at I know BA have plenty of these in their ranks. Others leaping to their own defence are wasting their time here.
And I am retired, reasonably comfortably, so have no interest personally in keeping my job/seniority.
Wealthy pilots, retire now.
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To put in in perspective, Gatwick area stands to loose about 25000 jobs either in airlines or associated with them. BA run a shuttle from LGW carpark to LHR ( or used to in my day!) so it matters not a hoot if they close ops at LGW. The T5 operation at LHR is far superior in any event, Gatwick is always awash with low cost pax eating at the oyster bars and walking around in shorts with tattoos. There is very little or no chance of the local jobs being recovered until passenger numbers pick up. Of course for the BA staff affected it's a far more reaching pain with loss of service benefits, staff travel etc. I'm sure BALPA will do their best but in reality they can't work miracles. Job share schemes do not work well for airlines.
They were the ones who I wish had retired early and left the opportunities for the younger ones, especially when VR was on the table. None of them did, and I considered them selfish. They were no pleasure to fly with, even though they were all competent.
That was who my post was aimed at, at I know BA have plenty of these in their ranks. Others leaping to their own defence are wasting their time here.
And I am retired, reasonably comfortably, so have no interest personally in keeping my job/seniority.
Wealthy pilots, retire now.
That was who my post was aimed at, at I know BA have plenty of these in their ranks. Others leaping to their own defence are wasting their time here.
And I am retired, reasonably comfortably, so have no interest personally in keeping my job/seniority.
Wealthy pilots, retire now.
I'll keep it brief - If the sort of pilots you describe hang on after/if VR is offered, denying junior guys jobs and opportunities, then you might have a point..
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No apology here. I flew with quite a few boring 60 + guys in the left seat who insisted on telling me the size of their pension funds and investments, about their mortgage-free property, and then inform me of their 2012 bangers they drove to the airport to save money. And the bloody DIY they did to save their wealth from greedy tradesmen. There were at least 20 of these thoughtless individuals that I can recall. They were the ones who I wish had retired early and left the opportunities for the younger ones, especially when VR was on the table. None of them did, and I considered them selfish. They were no pleasure to fly with, even though they were all competent.
That was who my post was aimed at, at I know BA have plenty of these in their ranks. Others leaping to their own defence are wasting their time here.
And I am retired, reasonably comfortably, so have no interest personally in keeping my job/seniority.
Wealthy pilots, retire now.
That was who my post was aimed at, at I know BA have plenty of these in their ranks. Others leaping to their own defence are wasting their time here.
And I am retired, reasonably comfortably, so have no interest personally in keeping my job/seniority.
Wealthy pilots, retire now.
I used to be proud to be part of BA, now I am embarrassed by their attack on the pilots. Sad that my BA could have changed so much.
I used to be proud of the community of pilots that I could call myself part of, now some of them embarrass me with their forum posts. I'm embarrassed for myself because I might have called some of those greedy, selfish pilots my friends. I hope I never knew Fly747.
Good luck to all of you out there, whoever you fly for. Most guys at the top had an expectation of a career at BA until 55. Every extra year a bonus. I hope that at least some do the right thing.
Have people seen this
https://petition.parliament.uk/petit...JNFG8lAroPI0Kc
Might not do much good but we can only try
https://petition.parliament.uk/petit...JNFG8lAroPI0Kc
Might not do much good but we can only try
Yes. But in the Starbucks/Virgin Atlantic etc method of corporate finance, multi-national groups invoice between their subsidiaries from one country to another to drain all the profit margin (which is what you tax) off from the major high tax jurisdictions (which is generally where most of the worthwhile turnover is) into one of the group companies which runs in a country with minimal tax.
It's not even as if the funds are then returned to any "investors". BA/IAG have not done any share issue for yonks, the vast majority of their shares that were sold to real investors to raise capital have been traded, and traded again, in what is effectively a professional form of gambling. Shareholders, yes, but investors, no.
It's not even as if the funds are then returned to any "investors". BA/IAG have not done any share issue for yonks, the vast majority of their shares that were sold to real investors to raise capital have been traded, and traded again, in what is effectively a professional form of gambling. Shareholders, yes, but investors, no.
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We’ve had the company proposal through from Balpa, utterly opportunistic smash and grab raid on Ts and Cs which has very little (read nothing) to do with Covid-19 (in much the same fashion as easyJet).
Redundancies split evenly between Captains and FOs. Won’t spill the requested figure precisely suffice to say it’s in four figures.
Redundancies split evenly between Captains and FOs. Won’t spill the requested figure precisely suffice to say it’s in four figures.
Does this imply that there may be redundancies in order of seniority by seat, not systemwide date of hire (a relative term with merged lists)? Or does this just mean that the plan, as of two days ago, is to reduce the headcount about the same in both seats?
In other words, would a junior captain possibly be made redundant while a senior first officer might not depending on base and systemwide seniority?
'New policies which are non-contractual' sounds very ominous.
Based on decades of past experience with these 'save the company' deals, there will be a two-phase implementation.
Phase One: Don't worry, it will never happen, our contract is sacred, the union won't ever allow it. Trust me.
Phase Two: It's a done deal, our hands were tied, we had to go along with the company on this or we would have had no inputs to the final (draconian) policies.
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Guys, when the oil price fell from $100+ to circa $60, a few years ago, the UK lost 120,000 O&G jobs. Not much was said about that but the prospect of 3,000 steel jobs going got a lot of attention
With CV-19 O&G anticipate another 30,000 UK jobs going, from about 150,000.
Life in general and in business can be a bitch, sh1te happens. Nobody owes anyone else a job for life.
Please stop blaming each other or the business. Prepare yourselves as best you can for your own sake and that of your families
With CV-19 O&G anticipate another 30,000 UK jobs going, from about 150,000.
Life in general and in business can be a bitch, sh1te happens. Nobody owes anyone else a job for life.
Please stop blaming each other or the business. Prepare yourselves as best you can for your own sake and that of your families
Not many steel workers were under continuous assessment or indeed have the responsibility of a pilot.
Oil and Gas workers were able to move to different contracts. It’s part of the job which every oil worker knows is transitional.
Have a bit of thought for these professional people who are about to lose everything.
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Airbubba I don't work for BA but yes that scenario is realistic, begs the question in the future will a larger proportion of senior FO's continue to pass on opportunities for Command due to this risk? You could have a scenario where someone takes a command, never gets the payrise due to Furlough, and is now looking down the barrel of redundancy. Ask me how I know.... 
