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IAG: BA restructuring may cost 12,000 jobs

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IAG: BA restructuring may cost 12,000 jobs

Old 15th Jul 2020, 06:52
  #1281 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2001
Location: EGKK
Age: 58
Posts: 69
sunny chase, an excellent post.You are exactly correct, contractually LIFO is our base line.It is understandable that BA wish to protect the A350/787 and I’m fortunate to be on the latter with 27 years service.
All this talk of “solidarity” comrades reminds me why I stopped paying 1% a decade ago.
It may be harsh but in times like this looking after #1 is what my family wants to hear.
Sounds rather like the “financial distribution suggestions” are straight out of the Socialist training agenda by Union reps who are seeing them entering CRS.
True?
Flap 80 is offline  
Old 15th Jul 2020, 08:28
  #1282 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: UK
Posts: 405
Having seen how management in a number of airlines has behaved a return to a more socially responsible system is no bad thing.

Looking after #1 is not a lesson I want to pass on to my children.

I speak as a man who cheered on Maggie during the miners’ strike.
fivecandles is online now  
Old 15th Jul 2020, 11:42
  #1283 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: jersey
Age: 71
Posts: 1,267
There are quite a few of us about ! One thing that the last thirty odd years have taught me is that they are all idiots - Government, bosses & unions.
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Old 15th Jul 2020, 15:59
  #1284 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: up up up
Posts: 375
Tui BALPA cc and the company have just come up with a deal resulting in zero redundancies or demotions and no long term changes to pay and conditions.

It’s a fantastic example of what CAN be done when both the union and management want to protect jobs and work together.
whatdoesthisbuttondo is offline  
Old 15th Jul 2020, 16:36
  #1285 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: May 2002
Location: uk
Posts: 326
Flap 80

Nope, not true. And you sound selfish and smug. Hey, but you're ok so [email protected] your colleagues eh?
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Old 15th Jul 2020, 16:38
  #1286 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: May 2002
Location: uk
Posts: 326
Originally Posted by Flap 80 View Post
contractually LIFO is our base line.
negotiated by the union btw, which you don't subscribe to.....
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Old 15th Jul 2020, 16:48
  #1287 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Sep 2018
Location: London
Posts: 120
Originally Posted by whatdoesthisbuttondo View Post
Tui BALPA cc and the company have just come up with a deal resulting in zero redundancies or demotions and no long term changes to pay and conditions.

It’s a fantastic example of what CAN be done when both the union and management want to protect jobs and work together.

TUI have been amazing !! I think many will chuck an application in after the air has cleared !
MIYA in times like these company’s show the true colours
Riskybis is online now  
Old 15th Jul 2020, 17:21
  #1288 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jun 2018
Location: London
Posts: 79
Flap80 must be a delight to fly with....Enjoys the benefits the union got him but had BA said 787’s to go, he’d be outside with a “BA betrayal” banner calling foul play.

Good luck to you guys, sounds like you need it with colleagues like that!
TUI is right now the best pilot gig in the UK hands down, great agreement by both parties.
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Old 15th Jul 2020, 17:24
  #1289 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: england
Posts: 738
Re:TUI, I would wait and see how the dust settles before thinking bullets have been dodged. I can see managers coming back for more if this drags on past the Summer. I don’t know when TUI makes most of its money , but I would be pretty concerned if they weren’t flying pax soon.
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Old 15th Jul 2020, 17:30
  #1290 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jun 2018
Location: London
Posts: 79
Obvioulsy people are cautious, however they are flying and the bookings are higher than expected for August. The belt is tight and the measures are in place for a year, hopefully next year, from April to October, the loads will be sufficiently high so the aircrew can feel more relaxed. That said, there were several cuts made elsewhere, it’s a different beast as to what BA is after all. The way the management approached the whole thing was second to none!

Last edited by Raph737; 15th Jul 2020 at 17:54.
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Old 15th Jul 2020, 17:40
  #1291 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Uk
Age: 39
Posts: 473
Pure LIFO or a weighted matrix was never realistic given the shear scale of the crisis. The CRS is a good scheme and it will have pilots in it who are being paid more than those who are working. It goes both ways

Be grateful of a job, be grateful of the CRS. Some will have neither. It’s shit but we will only get through it by not turning on each other. The alternative is fire and rehire. On that basis potential CRS occupants would be in a very precarious position.

Last edited by bex88; 15th Jul 2020 at 18:05.
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Old 15th Jul 2020, 19:02
  #1292 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: 8000 feet of cabin altitude
Posts: 532
.... but how can it be right that 300 pilots are paid 66.6% to do nothing for two years while we also have pilots being paid 50% for 50% work, 58% for 58% work etc..... What I'm saying is someone doing work for the company will be paid LESS than someone sitting at home, and how can that be right?
Finally, what protection will be put in place to guard against some of the lucky 300 being paid 66.6% of BA salary, and going and getting a job elsewhere? If they get a job elsewhere (presumably in a different sector), they should have to declare the amount gained and either that amount, or half that amount, is deducted from their BA (actually colleague's) money!
Hey Dave, great post. Go fornicate yourself.

I hope your children or your marriage won't ever suffer because you ended up on the wrong fleet, with the wrong seniority, and 66% of junior FO pay keeps you awake at night but you keep telling yourself "if I get it I'm the lucky one because I still have a job". Along with two others because one shelf stacking job at mimimum wage doesn't quite make up for the loss of earnings and my family insist on food and a roof over their heads. Sorry we're all such a burden.
speed freek is offline  
Old 15th Jul 2020, 19:05
  #1293 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2020
Location: UK
Posts: 5
Bex88,

Why would those in the CRS end up in a precarious position? Quite simply, we have a contract. Independent legal advice sought by several/many from differing lawyers/solicitors has been very encouraging suggesting (yes, not 100% I know) that if BA to make people redundant and the order disagrees with our contracts then we would stand in a very strong position. Of the two that I have spoken with, both have copies of our contracts. Arguably if BA was about to go bust then things may be different, but it isn't. It still has a HUGE cashpile available to use and what's more it has masses of offers of cash in terms of funding from multiple reliable sources.

"The alternative is fire and rehire". You can't simply make stuff up like this, it scares people left right and centre and is factually incorrect. It's the type of stuff Mr Cruz or the DFO would send out in order to convice pilots to agree to a bad deal - bully them into it.
The business is not about to go bust (read independent information / companies house info / business analysts opinions) - it is quite simply illegal to fire and rehire in this position.
Our strength lies in our contracts which both we and BA signed when we joined. We are both bound by it and will be subject to significant financial penalty if we don't adhere to it.
sunnychase is offline  
Old 15th Jul 2020, 21:17
  #1294 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2014
Location: UK
Posts: 122
Article regarding the threat of fire and rehire by the bullying gangster sociopaths.

‘Many European countries have legislation preventing this kind of Dickensian industrial relations policy – ironically including Spain and Ireland, home of Iberian and Aer Lingus, both part of IAG.’


https://www.politicshome.com/thehous...uld-be-illegal
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Old 15th Jul 2020, 21:57
  #1295 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: Delta of Venus
Posts: 456
Originally Posted by sunnychase View Post
50% of my basic just about covers my mortgage payments. I still have two loans and a whole host of bills including council tax, water, electricity blah blah blah resulting in me being approx minus 700 per month before I've even started paying for petrol - let alone food and two kids!
Please tell us why you are more deserving than anyone else? Some would say that you have dug your own hole, seduced by Conservative dogma that if you are "ambitious" enough, you can't lose.........
Private jet is offline  
Old 15th Jul 2020, 22:54
  #1296 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2020
Location: UK
Posts: 5
Pretty simple really... I'm not more "deserving" than anyone else. We all "deserve" equal based on equal loyalty, and given we aren't all equally loyal (some chose/choose to work elsewhere first then join present company) that gives us the variable (seniority). More significantly I believe if you don't more or less adhere to LIFO then as a career becoming a pilot becomes worthless. What happens when the next slightest downturn happens? CR, manipulated to get rid of those who are most expensive. This makes our profession relatively unique: we cannot move to other companies on similar salaries nor in similar positions.

As for digging my own hole.. If that's holding a modest house on an estate with a cheap car and some rather large training loans to repay then yes, I've dug my own hole. Tut tut.
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Old 15th Jul 2020, 23:16
  #1297 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2001
Location: The Winchester
Posts: 5,892
Meanwhile...news is at least some of those who registered an interest in VR off the popular fleets (specifically 787), a few quite senior, are being denied parole.

I hope that doesn't mean more CR elsewhere to make the numbers balance....
wiggy is offline  
Old 16th Jul 2020, 08:57
  #1298 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2019
Location: Brexland
Posts: 85
Originally Posted by Private jet View Post
Please tell us why you are more deserving than anyone else? Some would say that you have dug your own hole, seduced by Conservative dogma that if you are "ambitious" enough, you can't lose.........
How has nobody mentioned that spending 50% of your basic income on your mortgage payments is terrible financial planning!?
Whitemonk Returns is offline  
Old 16th Jul 2020, 09:52
  #1299 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: UK
Posts: 88
Originally Posted by wiggy View Post
Meanwhile...news is at least some of those who registered an interest in VR off the popular fleets (specifically 787), a few quite senior, are being denied parole.

I hope that doesn't mean more CR elsewhere to make the numbers balance....

For info, this is very similar to how it worked when VR was available in Monarch at the end of 2014.

Senior Birmingham based Captains were denied VR due lack of Captains at Birmingham whilst slightly less senior Captains at Gatwick took up the opportunity of VR as Monarch had a surplus of Captains at Gatwick (a long established base).

Company requirements.

In BAs case, replace a base with an aircraft fleet..

Sorry.
Cuillin Hills is offline  
Old 16th Jul 2020, 11:20
  #1300 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: UK
Age: 45
Posts: 46
Originally Posted by Whitemonk Returns View Post
How has nobody mentioned that spending 50% of your basic income on your mortgage payments is terrible financial planning!?
I’m guessing you’re of the previous generation? Seen the price of properties in S/E England?

Alternatively, pay rent into someone else’s pocket, likely similar costs to a mortgage without the security of your own home or the potential for future capital growth...

I was born in the 70’s and have had it ok (could’ve done a lot better had I understood financial planning better in my more junior years and that would’ve involved taking on Mortgage debt).
To suggest poor financial planning to those who’ve had little choice but to take on large debt to progress a career or have a half decent home for their families, is a little crass. What choice have more recent generations had? Bank of mum and dad (lucky few); don’t follow a dream or sign contracts = stay in the soul destroying previous employment that may or may not have paid well?
Borrowing to 50% income may not be wise, but perhaps there was little other choice - after all, where does anyone get to in life, without taking some risk....
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