Go Back  PPRuNe Forums > Flight Deck Forums > Terms and Endearment
Reload this Page >

IAG: BA restructuring may cost 12,000 jobs

Terms and Endearment The forum the bean counters hoped would never happen. Your news on pay, rostering, allowances, extras and negotiations where you work - scheduled, charter or contract.

IAG: BA restructuring may cost 12,000 jobs

Old 5th Jul 2020, 20:32
  #1201 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2000
Location: UK (and now rarely behind enemy lines but still enjoying foreign climes.)
Posts: 1,361
Originally Posted by TURIN View Post
Yes, sorry, I agree, I didn't take Wiggy's post as decisive either, I just didn't want to kick it off again.
I think you meant to write divisive, Turin, rather than "decisive"?
MrBernoulli is offline  
Old 6th Jul 2020, 01:10
  #1202 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: UK
Age: 56
Posts: 3,206
Talking Mr Mainwaring

Well done Wilson, I was wondering when someone was going to spot that.
TURIN is offline  
Old 6th Jul 2020, 03:09
  #1203 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: UK
Posts: 849
Originally Posted by wiggy View Post
I'm going to sound unsympathetic but I have to say, somewhat wearily, after 30 plus years of witnessing the interaction between BALPA and the other Unions at BA that it needs to be made clear that what happens to other staff is in all honesty down to them, BA management and their Union(s!.
And with an attitude like this, you wonder why?

I look into this as a total outsider to all of this, but it is no different to other situations in the UK historically and abroad; the difference this time is that the economic situation is potentially so dire, the most damaging of cuts could be justified by most companies regardless of their own in-house credit line.

Someone felt that I was wrong when I suggested that BALPA were a powerful union - in my eyes, only the PFA and RMT have more influence in their respective employers eyes to really scare them. After a deal with BALPA, Unite / other representative groups’ ideals are undermined and you can certainly see BAW doubling down on their other employment groups if their most “skilled” workers are secured. It reminds me there is no togetherness in this industry any more.
Dannyboy39 is offline  
Old 6th Jul 2020, 06:41
  #1204 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2001
Location: The Winchester
Posts: 6,242
Originally Posted by Dannyboy39 View Post
Someone felt that I was wrong when I suggested that BALPA were a powerful union - in my eyes, only the PFA and RMT have more influence in their respective employers eyes to really scare them.
After last years strike?

After a deal with BALPA, Unite / other representative groups’ ideals are undermined
How exactly?

We don't know what the deal is yet, we don't know if the membership will accept it..If it has "metrics" that UNITE regard as favourable I'd say that actually aids the other unions - on the " me too" basis".

It reminds me there is no togetherness in this industry any more.
The various Cabin Crew contracts at BA, and how they evolved, is witness to that..no need to bring "the pilots" into that argument.

Last edited by wiggy; 6th Jul 2020 at 08:36.
wiggy is online now  
Old 7th Jul 2020, 21:18
  #1205 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: England
Posts: 343
Letter out from the BA chief pilot,

All pilots to take another 2 weeks unpaid leave before April ‘21. Redundancy based on performance, experience, conduct and qualifications.
Training pool for 300 pilots on reduced pay while awaiting retraining. And a return pool for those made redundant. Pilots on A350 and B787 look relatively safe, Pay frozen until 2023.

not much detail out yet
binsleepen is offline  
Old 7th Jul 2020, 21:27
  #1206 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2001
Location: The Winchester
Posts: 6,242
If I'm understanding BALPA e-mail correctly then to add to the above:

I'm finding the BALPA comment on pay confusing - Yes there's mention of a "Pay freeze" but also I'm reading comment on a "pay reduction" - they have figures in the e-mail showing pay reducing in August ramping down to effectively 85% of normal pay from Nov 2020 onwards. Pay increases again (staged) to 100% by Jan 2024.

Sadly it looks like, again worse case, a few pilots may well be made compulsory redundant..I'm not going to hazard a guess on numbers but hopefully it's looking like if that happens the numbers are nowhere near the original headline figures that were in the media a while back of over a thousand.

Actual exact numbers for the above will depend on the take up of Voluntary Redundancy (I'll almost certainly be one of those)and Part Time Working..

Last edited by wiggy; 7th Jul 2020 at 22:46.
wiggy is online now  
Old 7th Jul 2020, 21:52
  #1207 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Oct 2016
Location: North London at last
Posts: 146
binsleepen
Sorry, not from BA. So not LIFO ?
FlipFlapFlop is offline  
Old 7th Jul 2020, 21:58
  #1208 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2001
Location: The Winchester
Posts: 6,242
I suspect the BALPA line is that any selection criteria has to include ‘last in first out" as one of the main criterion and must be applied all pilots across the company ..so it sounds like modified LIFO or LIFO + for those not on the A350/B787.

Further to comments/my confusion about pay upthread - debate elsewhere has people talking about this as a 15% pay cut, which is how I read the BALPA e-mail.


The "pay freeze" comment seems to be being interpreted as the annual Pay points being frozen at their current level; so no movement in line with inflation/RPI/CPI or whatever, no movement in line with any previously agreed pay deals for the next three years - people will however still move up the frozen pay points.

In short: Continue to move up the frozen pay scales then worse case take a 15% reduction from that pay scale figure.

( Sorry for the continual re-editing - as binsleepin pointed out this was all released within the last hour or two so we are all trying to wade through and decipher the text of various e-mails)

Last edited by wiggy; 7th Jul 2020 at 22:49.
wiggy is online now  
Old 7th Jul 2020, 22:53
  #1209 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: UK
Posts: 688
then worse case take a 15% reduction
Reading both emails, I suspect those pilots in the CRS pool will be taking a far greater than 15% pay cut. There is still a huge amount of detail to come though, so we are all just guessing and reading between the lines.
GS-Alpha is offline  
Old 7th Jul 2020, 23:30
  #1210 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: pluto
Posts: 187
CRS pool pay 'subsidised' by the collective hit.
PT % should have been imposed to keep everyone employed, rather than trying to persuade the sometimes less than altruistic to do the right thing.
Interesting few weeks ahead.
Good luck to you all, especially the bottom 450/225 (unless you're just starting/finishing your training on the 787350, in which case, despite only being in the company a few weeks, you're bullet proof!).
blimey is offline  
Old 8th Jul 2020, 01:56
  #1211 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Botswana
Posts: 866
Experience = Basically Length of Service in BA so LIFO. However 787 and A350 pilots are exempt from CR. 450 surplus pilots includes 100 on the A350/787 that BA are going to absorb the cost of due “operational requirements”. So 350 pilots CR, nobody has directly been made redundant by an A350 or 787 pilot being saved but there will be pilots leaving the business with greater seniority than some of those remaining, which leaves a very bad taste.

Last edited by RexBanner; 8th Jul 2020 at 02:12.
RexBanner is offline  
Old 8th Jul 2020, 06:06
  #1212 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: UK
Posts: 688
I’ve heard BA are absorbing the cost of the junior A350 and 787 guys Rex, but has it actually been stated that they are coming off the 450 figure, or is that just your assumption? (I only ask, because why would they state a figure of 450 CR when it is actually 350? I was assuming the absorbed redundancies had already been taken into account, and 450 was the resulting figure).
GS-Alpha is offline  
Old 8th Jul 2020, 06:47
  #1213 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: somewhere in the middle
Posts: 261
BA are going to rank everyone according to a criteria (length of service, performance, training qualifications & disciplinaries) and then draw a line in the sand - at the moment that line is 450 pilots up from the bottom. Any 787/350 pilots below that line will be kept on by BA, at BAs expense, anyone else will be made redundant. The line won’t move upwards on the basis of saving 787/350 pilots.

This is from a BALPA rep.
thetimesreader84 is online now  
Old 8th Jul 2020, 07:12
  #1214 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: UK
Posts: 688
Well that’s great news. Couple that with the apparently significant uptake of voluntary stuff and that headline 450 figure shrinks all the more.
GS-Alpha is offline  
Old 8th Jul 2020, 07:54
  #1215 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Oct 2016
Location: North London at last
Posts: 146
I suppose this is a lot better than originally postulated so I guess BALPA have done their job. It is still awful for those directly impacted.

Is there to be a return pool and have they said the basis for return ? Seniority order ? Would the CR return pool come second to 747 retraining pool ?
I assume vast majority of those impacted by CR will be First Officers. Will there be demotion of current captains to balance the numbers or will they retain rank and fly RHS?

FlipFlapFlop is offline  
Old 8th Jul 2020, 09:44
  #1216 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2001
Location: The Winchester
Posts: 6,242
Originally Posted by FlipFlapFlop View Post
...Is there to be a return pool ..?
According to the BALPA e-mail last night there's going to be a three-year right of return process for any pilots affected by compulsory redundancy..

Details yet to be announced.

IMHO I think given what we can see going on in the wider world/wider economy I think the Reps have done a very very good job, some seem to think otherwise..
wiggy is online now  
Old 8th Jul 2020, 10:11
  #1217 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2014
Location: UK
Posts: 123
So the leak to The Sun over a week ago, was exactly bang on! (300 in pool, 350 CR).
777JRM is offline  
Old 8th Jul 2020, 10:35
  #1218 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: united kingdom
Posts: 203
So if the 350/787 are exempt then it's not LIFO, or am I missing something
king surf is offline  
Old 8th Jul 2020, 11:32
  #1219 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2001
Location: The Winchester
Posts: 6,242
Originally Posted by 777JRM View Post

So the leak to The Sun over a week ago, was exactly bang on! (300 in pool, 350 CR).
It might be "bang on", it might not be.

The CR final figure number is not yet known - it depends on uptake of Voluntary Redundancy, Part Time and at least another couple of factors..so it could be less.
wiggy is online now  
Old 8th Jul 2020, 11:59
  #1220 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Uk
Age: 40
Posts: 473
To add it also states

Firstly, active pilots to match our new fleet make up. Pilots in this group will wherever possible maintain their current fleet and status. This will need to match the flying schedule and some demotions are inevitable.

Quite a bit will depend on the fleet you are on
bex88 is offline  

Thread Tools
Search this Thread

Contact Us - Archive - Advertising - Cookie Policy - Privacy Statement - Terms of Service - Do Not Sell My Personal Information -

Copyright © 2021 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Use of this site indicates your consent to the Terms of Use.