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IAG: BA restructuring may cost 12,000 jobs

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IAG: BA restructuring may cost 12,000 jobs

Old 15th Jun 2020, 14:27
  #941 (permalink)  
 
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And my point is if you under sell your skills to that degree, the good times will never return.
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Old 15th Jun 2020, 14:32
  #942 (permalink)  
 
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That's going to be a fight between yourselves and BA management because they clearly believe that the market value of your skills is below that which you believe. Fortunately for you, Britain is not entirely a market economy.
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Old 15th Jun 2020, 14:32
  #943 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by GS-Alpha View Post
I have spent most of lockdown thinking my career of twenty odd years is now over, but I am still waiting to find out for sure. However, whilst considering my options, not once have I considered trying to find another flying job earning £20k a year. If that is where the career is headed, I for one would rather leave it behind. There are loads of things you can do to earn that kind of money, although I personally have considerably more ambition.
But how is it any different from the ambition of any new starter at a LCC who takes whatever job they can get simply to get current and rack up the hours? - they all have the ambition that things will improve in the future and that they can move on to better things.

Currently there is a glut of pilots on the market and for those that wish to stay in the industry and have no job their options are extremely limited. The forecasts are that the industry will recover in about 3 - 4 years so someone who is currently unemployed but wishes to keep flying will find a job that only pays basic wages for a short time quite attractive at the moment I would suggest.

Good luck to you and I hope it all works out - having gone through several crisis in the Industry before (9/11, SARS etc) where I was made redundant and even had to get out of the industry for a while I'm glad that I am now retired and not facing the difficult decisions all you guys are now having to make.
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Old 15th Jun 2020, 15:13
  #944 (permalink)  
 
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Being made redundant myself in the last financial crisis with a shitty type rating and very few hours I can feel your pain BUT:

Although it does not seem likely right now but there will come better times. Always have been, always will. Give it a year. Drive a van for DHL or stack shelves at Tescoís but do not fly for free. Seriously have some decency and be patient. Better times WILL come! People will fly.
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Old 15th Jun 2020, 15:33
  #945 (permalink)  
 
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When your neighbours in your Emirates village are topping themselves, and the ambulances keep flying past, it brings things into perspective.

I have it on first hand that these pilots, a380 15 year skippers amongst them, are willing to work for free for the foreseeable to keep themselves current for the upswing. That's what you're up against BA.

They've got enough of a rainy day fund to see themselves through 3 years no salary or 20k gbp or whatever, but not 20 years no career. And your awful higher BA management will take full advantage of that. And permanently.

It's not on.
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Old 15th Jun 2020, 16:05
  #946 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by kungfu panda View Post
That's going to be a fight between yourselves and BA management because they clearly believe that the market value of your skills is below that which you believe.
How have you drawn that conclusion from anything I have said?
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Old 15th Jun 2020, 16:10
  #947 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Flying Clog View Post
I have it on first hand that these pilots, a380 15 year skippers amongst them, are willing to work for free for the foreseeable to keep themselves current for the upswing.
Well if that is truly the case, they will kill the career and never earn a reasonable salary for their skills. With several years of financial contingency, they would be far wiser to retrain to do something else. If things recover, they continue their flying career with new skills under their belt. If things do not recover, they embark on their new careers.
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Old 15th Jun 2020, 16:38
  #948 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Flying Clog View Post

I have it on first hand that these pilots, a380 15 year skippers amongst them, are willing to work for free for the foreseeable to keep themselves current for the upswing. That's what you're up against BA.

They've got enough of a rainy day fund to see themselves through 3 years no salary or 20k gbp or whatever, but not 20 years no career.
So whatís their plan at the end of the 3 years? Try & get their old salary back? Once those kind of Ts & Cs are out of the box, they wonít go back in.

It's not on.
agreed.
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Old 15th Jun 2020, 16:46
  #949 (permalink)  
 
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Walsh comes out fighting against the government report.

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Old 15th Jun 2020, 19:27
  #950 (permalink)  
 
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Doesnt look like WW is in the mood to back down. And I do think he has a point that it is a bit of a cheek for Huw Merriman to complain when it is his Party who have introduced the 14 day quarantine (and the 2 meter distancing) that is effectively killing the industry.
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Old 15th Jun 2020, 22:03
  #951 (permalink)  
 
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Out of interest, who are these 15 yr a380 skippers going to fly for if virtually every airline is downsizing their A380 fleets? I’d be more concerned about the 777 guys being let go as they are a bit more useful without having to pay for conversions, etc.
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Old 15th Jun 2020, 22:13
  #952 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by 777JRM View Post
I suspect that everything you just said in your doomcast email is wrong.

Look at all the airlines who are ramping up services for June and July (Wizzair, Ryanair, Turkish (no lay-offs), Thai (no lay-offs)), despite the illogical 14-day quarantine period.

Where is your evidence for experienced captains right now who would bite your hand off for £20k a year?
TG aren't operating an services until August at the earliest
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Old 16th Jun 2020, 06:25
  #953 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by GS-Alpha View Post
they would be far wiser to retrain to do something else. .
Do you actually believe there are a lot of jobs available, whichever the sector is?

.
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Old 16th Jun 2020, 07:39
  #954 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by kungfu panda View Post
That's going to be a fight between yourselves and BA management because they clearly believe that the market value of your skills is below that which you believe.
Is it that they believe the price is too high, or that they know itís the going rate but just donít care because theyíve found an opportunity they otherwise would never have found to reduce terms anyway?
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Old 16th Jun 2020, 08:00
  #955 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Bidule View Post
Do you actually believe there are a lot of jobs available, whichever the sector is?

.
No I do not.
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Old 16th Jun 2020, 08:03
  #956 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by GS-Alpha View Post
Of course I do not. This is why I said I would use the time to retrain. Anyway, this is now the last comment I shall make on the subject. I wish I had never bothered. If people really do think the job is worth doing for a lifetime on £20k, they are welcome to it.
In my opinion, the job was barely worth doing on the salaries hitherto offered. It's clear that airline management industry wide has long had pilot Ts&Cs firmly in their sites and this crisis has provided them with the golden opportunity to swing the axe. Even any changes presented as "temporary" will inevitably turn out to be not so temporary.

The problem lies in the fact that very few pilots have the qualifications and experience to go and do anything else, without making a significant investment in terms of time and money. WW, PB at easy, MOL etc. all know that they have pilots over a barrel, and that they can offer literally anything they want knowing that the majority of people will sign up just to keep some money coming in. Maybe people will sign up thinking that the "good times" will return. Clearly demand will rise at some point in the industry, but with a seemingly never-ending queue of kids (or their parents) willing to pay £120k for flight training, there's no reason to think that Ts&Cs will ever return to the level we saw three months ago.
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Old 16th Jun 2020, 08:41
  #957 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by guy_incognito View Post
but with a seemingly never-ending queue of kids (or their parents) willing to pay £120k for flight training, there's no reason to think that Ts&Cs will ever return to the level we saw three months ago.
Yes, blame the kids. Not all are stereotypically rich family children. Most parents have bent over backward to provide their kids with their dream ambition. You would probably do similar steps if your children were adamant for a certain career. Having been lucky to be in a situation where I was able to attend a 'big' flight school should I have not gone just so the number you talk about became slightly less? The decline in the T&Cs at the top of the ecosystem is not caused by the those at the bottom who enter. Get a grip, become a union rep, walk the walk, instead of writing utter crap.
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Old 16th Jun 2020, 09:57
  #958 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Busdriver01 View Post
Is it that they believe the price is too high, or that they know itís the going rate but just donít care because theyíve found an opportunity they otherwise would never have found to reduce terms anyway?
The latter.
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Old 16th Jun 2020, 10:05
  #959 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by guy_incognito View Post
In my opinion, the job was barely worth doing on the salaries hitherto offered. It's clear that airline management industry wide has long had pilot Ts&Cs firmly in their sites and this crisis has provided them with the golden opportunity to swing the axe. Even any changes presented as "temporary" will inevitably turn out to be not so temporary.

The problem lies in the fact that very few pilots have the qualifications and experience to go and do anything else, without making a significant investment in terms of time and money. WW, PB at easy, MOL etc. all know that they have pilots over a barrel, and that they can offer literally anything they want knowing that the majority of people will sign up just to keep some money coming in. Maybe people will sign up thinking that the "good times" will return. Clearly demand will rise at some point in the industry, but with a seemingly never-ending queue of kids (or their parents) willing to pay £120k for flight training, there's no reason to think that Ts&Cs will ever return to the level we saw three months ago.

Once Ts & Cs are trashed, this will no longer be a sought-after career, with all the initial training costs, continual pressure from fatigue (FTL limits set as targets), being away from home, sim checks, medicals, etc, and the ultimate responsibilty of many lives.

Who knows in how many years, but I think there will be a global shortage.
Unless of course the industry will change with technology to a single pilot with a ground-based back-up, or even no pilots at all!

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Old 16th Jun 2020, 10:13
  #960 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by TheAirMission View Post
Yes, blame the kids. Not all are stereotypically rich family children. Most parents have bent over backward to provide their kids with their dream ambition. You would probably do similar steps if your children were adamant for a certain career. Having been lucky to be in a situation where I was able to attend a 'big' flight school should I have not gone just so the number you talk about became slightly less? The decline in the T&Cs at the top of the ecosystem is not caused by the those at the bottom who enter. Get a grip, become a union rep, walk the walk, instead of writing utter crap.
I'm not blaming anyone for it. It's a fact that the primary barrier to entry into a career as a pilot is financial, and not academic qualification based. The airlines don't care about hiring the best people: they want the cheapest possible to achieve the regulatory minimum standard of safety.This has allowed airlines to take advantage of an endless supply of cheap labour at the bottom, without having to invest anything in them. Compare that to real professions like medicine and law, where the barriers to entry are extremely high, and serious investment is made to recruit the best people.

There is no solution to the problem. The regulator doesn't care because it's proven to be a safe way of operating an airline. The union might care, but in the UK at least is seriously restricted in what it can do. It's fanciful to suggest pilots will go on strike to do something about entry level conditions, even if it was legal to do so (which it isn't). Oh and I was a union rep.
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