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IAG: BA restructuring may cost 12,000 jobs

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IAG: BA restructuring may cost 12,000 jobs

Old 6th Jun 2020, 17:35
  #761 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Abbey Road View Post
The original S188 was 955 headcount reduction from volume adjustment, plus 175 headcount reduction from efficency changes = 1130.
It is now 1080 plus 175 = 1255.
Is that 1255 full time positions or pro-rated for the part timers. If it's a full time equivalent, that's not far off up to a third of the workforce.
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Old 6th Jun 2020, 17:57
  #762 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Panel3 View Post
Sadly i think the union wouldn't go down a legal challenge route over this one.
Quite the contrary, IHMO.

If the BALPA lawyers thought they could win this, they would throw everything they had at the case. I'm not sure I could think of a more important fight to win for all pilots, not just BA pilots. If BA can fire/rehire, there will be nothing to stop any other company from doing it.

If there were ever any doubt as to what kind of a company this has become, I hope all doubt is now removed.

As always, cheers and good luck to us all.

Buter
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Old 6th Jun 2020, 18:00
  #763 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by blimey View Post
Is that 1255 full time positions or pro-rated for the part timers. If it's a full time equivalent, that's not far off up to a third of the workforce.
The initial S188 did not specifically cover that particular detail, and BA pilots (outside of the BA company council) have not yet seen the new S188. However, the BA company council have, more than once, mentioned part-time as a likely means of reducing the number of positions lost, so it appears they are working on a full-time MPE.

But given BA's threat to fire and rehire, who knows whether any BA pilot, currently on a part-time contract, would be offered an equivalent part-time position in any fire and rehire? I don't know what the law has to say about that principle, if anything.

Walsh, Cruz and cohorts finally get to play out their wet dream. Twunts.
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Old 6th Jun 2020, 18:14
  #764 (permalink)  
 
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So this must represent about 20-25% of the pilot workforce.

Surely they will lose routes and LHR slots due to a 25% fleet decrease ??
or/and LGW will go completely. (until Vueling fill the gap)?
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Old 6th Jun 2020, 19:13
  #765 (permalink)  
 
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Yes it is legal but...

Originally Posted by aviationvictim View Post
This fire and rehire idea. Is it actually legal? It seems very extreme even for the UK as it makes the unions completely redundant. Surely there must be a way to stop something like this happening?
Best of luck to all involved.
This is actually legal in the UK.
The fact that it is legal does not make it fair or ethical during a pandemic but rather the opposite.
This shows the real intentions of BA management & IAG. We all know that WW is fully in charge of these decisions. Alex Cruz is simply one of WW's direct reports within IAG.

In the majority of G20 countries this practice would be illegal. The only exception would be the US.
The UK workers in recent years have been following the US in a suicidal trend: large corporations have successfully invested millions of pounds to discredit unions. The vast majority of workers in the UK now are so brainwashed that they strongly believe Unions are a waste of time.
This is very dangerous indeed, especially during a crisis of this magnitude as companies can take huge advantage of the workforce by slashing T&Cs to increase further fat cats' bonuses ignoring any ethical principle and social consequences.
It is true that "anti-union" countries like the US and the UK have lower unemployment levels however we can't forget that the "race to the bottom" is reaching very dangerous levels with too many workers surviving under awful T&Cs in both the US and the UK. BA Mixed fleet is only one example with crew sleeping in their cars unable to afford petrol.
This polarisation (getting worse by the day in both the US and the UK) is not sustainable and will lead to widespread mental issues and civil unrest in the long term.
Decent T&Cs are actually compatible with healthy corporate profits and BA is one of the few example left in the UK. BA has been very profitable with the present T&Cs. This is a fact.
Other EU countries enjoy high productivity combined with generous salaries and strong unions (e.g. DE, DK, CH etc). High level of staff engagement and morale.

We must wake up before the entire system collapses...see the US where millions of very low-paid workers have no sickness payments, no leave, etc ( zero hours contracts) and rely on tips, madness and non sustainable.
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Old 6th Jun 2020, 19:48
  #766 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by aviationvictim View Post
This fire and rehire idea. Is it actually legal? It seems very extreme even for the UK as it makes the unions completely redundant. Surely there must be a way to stop something like this happening?
Best of luck to all involved.
During the Transport Select Committee hearing the UNITE rep, (all other BA staff face fire and re-hire), when questioned by the chair stated that there was no legal recourse. Any legal action would be subsequent to the event. Constructive dismissal and employment tribunals. BA would very likely lose but the only compensation is financial, not as much as anyone thinks, and BA would have a reduced workforce with slim T&Cs in place.
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Old 6th Jun 2020, 19:50
  #767 (permalink)  
 
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I could not be more ashamed of our national flag carrier. Shame on BA management and WW.

British Airways - Spains favourite airline

Sox

Last edited by CaptainSox; 6th Jun 2020 at 20:05.
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Old 6th Jun 2020, 20:25
  #768 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Panel3 View Post
I think the only way to deal with this is if NO ONE signs the new contract. They'll soon come back to their senses with no bonus or shareholder value.

Has anyone actually seen one of these new contracts?. There has been loads of media reports of 65% cuts in pay but they are always 3rd or 4th hand and without any evidence.

It would be nice to see a copy of the new proposals.
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Old 6th Jun 2020, 20:29
  #769 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by ILS27LEFT View Post
This is actually legal in the UK.
The fact that it is legal does not make it fair or ethical during a pandemic but rather the opposite.
This shows the real intentions of BA management & IAG. We all know that WW is fully in charge of these decisions. Alex Cruz is simply one of WW's direct reports within IAG.

In the majority of G20 countries this practice would be illegal. The only exception would be the US.
The UK workers in recent years have been following the US in a suicidal trend: large corporations have successfully invested millions of pounds to discredit unions. The vast majority of workers in the UK now are so brainwashed that they strongly believe Unions are a waste of time.
This is very dangerous indeed, especially during a crisis of this magnitude as companies can take huge advantage of the workforce by slashing T&Cs to increase further fat cats' bonuses ignoring any ethical principle and social consequences.
It is true that "anti-union" countries like the US and the UK have lower unemployment levels however we can't forget that the "race to the bottom" is reaching very dangerous levels with too many workers surviving under awful T&Cs in both the US and the UK. BA Mixed fleet is only one example with crew sleeping in their cars unable to afford petrol.
This polarisation (getting worse by the day in both the US and the UK) is not sustainable and will lead to widespread mental issues and civil unrest in the long term.
Decent T&Cs are actually compatible with healthy corporate profits and BA is one of the few example left in the UK. BA has been very profitable with the present T&Cs. This is a fact.
Other EU countries enjoy high productivity combined with generous salaries and strong unions (e.g. DE, DK, CH etc). High level of staff engagement and morale.

We must wake up before the entire system collapses...see the US where millions of very low-paid workers have no sickness payments, no leave, etc ( zero hours contracts) and rely on tips, madness and non sustainable.
well written and sadly very true
aviationvictim is online now  
Old 6th Jun 2020, 22:03
  #770 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: May 2002
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Angry

Originally Posted by Jet II View Post
Has anyone actually seen one of these new contracts?. There has been loads of media reports of 65% cuts in pay but they are always 3rd or 4th hand and without any evidence.

It would be nice to see a copy of the new proposals.
I have seen the CC 'proposals' however that hasn't been translated into contracts.....yet.
Regarding pilots, from Balpa comms this afternoon, the company are after a permenant change in T's and C's as well a reduction in MPE. No proposals or the fleet plan are public yet.
In the UK you can be made redundant on mass and re-hired on new T's & C's. They can't make you redundant and then hire someone new. You would have grounds for unfair dismisal.
If no agreement is reached or if Balpa stopped negotiations BA could and dare I say it will end existing pilot contracts and re-issue new ones. If no-one accepted the new contract I suppose you would have a 'mexican' standoff.
Obviously what came out JM and AB's mouth's over the last month was complete b0ll0x
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Old 7th Jun 2020, 00:00
  #771 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Jet II View Post
Has anyone actually seen one of these new contracts?. There has been loads of media reports of 65% cuts in pay but they are always 3rd or 4th hand and without any evidence.

It would be nice to see a copy of the new proposals.







TURIN is offline  
Old 7th Jun 2020, 00:28
  #772 (permalink)  
 
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Thanks Turin

Correct me if I am wrong but those rates dont look much different to the existing Mixed Fleet pay now.
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Old 7th Jun 2020, 00:29
  #773 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Abbey Road View Post
The BA pilots company council has just informed it's members that BA issued a new S188 letter on Wednesday evening (3rd June) stating that 1080 pilot jobs are now under threat (an increase). Additionally, BA has also now included the 'fire and rehire' clause it has been throwing at other areas of BA, i.e. if agreement is not reached between BALPA and BA, then the employment of all pilots will be terminated, and new contracts, with new terms and conditions, will be offered. How generous of them. Pretty obvious what the Ts & Cs, and pay will be like.
Now here's a radical idea:

What if everybody fired refused to be rehired?
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Old 7th Jun 2020, 00:35
  #774 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Chris2303 View Post
Now here's a radical idea:

What if everybody fired refused to be rehired?
I dont think there will be a shortage of airline staff looking for work at the moment - possibly some of the 3500 that Air NewZealand laid off?

It's going to be an employers market for the next 5 years.
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Old 7th Jun 2020, 05:55
  #775 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by TURIN View Post
So, why is WW involved? Surely this BA redundancy plan is just management making their own commercial decisions. Sorry, I don't buy it. If IAG are not involved with this Iberia purchase, a major financial transaction by any measure, then what is the point of them being there. Lets face it, WW is steering this entire process.
Huw Merriman is addressing all of this in parliament on Monday. Have a look at his Twitter, as he's hot on updating in regard to BA and WW in particular.
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Old 7th Jun 2020, 07:15
  #776 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Jet II View Post
I dont think there will be a shortage of airline staff looking for work at the moment - possibly some of the 3500 that Air NewZealand laid off?

It's going to be an employers market for the next 5 years.
and who would fly the line whilst we recruit and train (who would train them for that matter?) these 3500 as they relocate their homes and update their licenses?
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Old 7th Jun 2020, 07:22
  #777 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Jet II View Post
I dont think there will be a shortage of airline staff looking for work at the moment - possibly some of the 3500 that Air NewZealand laid off?

It's going to be an employers market for the next 5 years.
Makes me laugh, BA need people to fly their airplanes in July and August, how exactly do you think BA could train up an entire new workforce (without any trainers) in the time available if the workforce refuse to sign. Particularly non nationals without EASA licences, have you ever dealt with the CAA? BA are bluffing and it's going to take some big balls and unity for the CC/FD unions to fight them but if they call their bluff it's game over, what exactly are BA going to do if only 10% of their workforce agrees to sign?
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Old 7th Jun 2020, 07:36
  #778 (permalink)  
 
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If The Trainers stick together and do not sign up,then the entire workforce goes out of check and it becomes logistically impossible to ramp it up after a finite period of time.
Some clever soul can supply the number of days.
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Old 7th Jun 2020, 08:59
  #779 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by unitedabx View Post
No pilots no airline. Eventually, the union and BA would have to sit down and negotiate. First on the agenda "remove all pilots who returned to work".
Under UK legislation, one cannot be dismissed for taking part in an industrial action. Iím pretty sure the same is valid for those who donít partake in it.
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Old 7th Jun 2020, 09:13
  #780 (permalink)  
 
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I sincerely hope that I'm proven wrong, but I think that it's pure fantasy to think that a group of pilots will have the resolve and solidarity necessary to refuse to sign a new contract en masse. Pilot terms and conditions will never recover to anything close to where they were before this crisis.
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