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IAG: BA restructuring may cost 12,000 jobs

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IAG: BA restructuring may cost 12,000 jobs

Old 29th Apr 2020, 09:25
  #41 (permalink)  

I Have Control
 
Join Date: May 2004
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Not quite sure what your point is MP. Forced redundancy is not the same as voluntary retirement. I lost my job at bmi mainline in Jan 2002 aged 50, and had no income for 6 months until finding another job, albeit as an FO for the remainder of my career. I had only been at bmi for 7 months.

I know that very many former colleagues in their 30's, 40's, and 50's face the stark reality of losing their jobs permanently. Perhaps thousands. You were one of the few lucky ones in this unstable profession. And you came from another era. Few if any today will be offered VR, it will be the same forced redundancy that I had no choice but to accept. I am not criticising you, just asking what the relevance of your post is to today's pilots.

(Could't stand Bishop btw. Nasty piece of work)
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Old 29th Apr 2020, 09:44
  #42 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Riskybis View Post
is this the same BA that said they didn’t need government help ?
A week or two is a long time in business/ "that was then and this is now"/the past is another country.

Two or three of weeks back I reckon many airline CEOs were simply seeing this in terms of their company vs the opposition and how do we come out of this on top...I reckon now more and more of them are simply concentrating on what they need to do to get their company through this at all.

I think he /"BA" are allowed to change his mind (not saying he or BA has).
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Old 29th Apr 2020, 09:54
  #43 (permalink)  
 
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RoyHudd

MP’s advice is relevant because BA dos have a large number of post 55 pilots who may be considering VR. The personal costs of early retirement are minimal compared to being unemployable for an unforeseeable period. The payroll savings per person would be 10x more than taking off the bottom.
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Old 29th Apr 2020, 10:10
  #44 (permalink)  
 
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RH, I think MP used the wrong word in the second case - did he mean to say "I was taken out to dinner on my retirement by several pilots who had faced retirement redundancy who just wanted to say thank you, a very kind thought."? I did that when one Contract I was on started to wind up so I left what work there was to the young guys with families - I had the flex to work away from home, semi-retired, which I then did for several years. People gradually left over the next 18 months but, at least, it bought them more time to plan.

Mind you, the young bu66ers never took me out to dinner tho! Praps they were just glad to be shot of H 'n' H!
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Old 29th Apr 2020, 10:17
  #45 (permalink)  

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I take your point, Ron Swanson. Although it really only applies to BA, and possibly a few at TUI. Final Salary pensions are nowhere there for the pre-55's.
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Old 29th Apr 2020, 10:34
  #46 (permalink)  
 
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I've been through a number of VR schemes and the basic factors will be the same for the majority of other industries as well, they are generally based on:

• Big payouts for longer serving members.
• People will take VR if they have a good fall back plan. Such as retirement and money in the bank or assets.
• People will also take the VR if they can also be employed in another like-for-like job.
• Generally people who are low skilled and less likely to find another role then won’t take VR.

At a business perspective; VR hurts the company more because it doesn't necessarily control who actually leaves the company. Whereas forced redundancy is better for the company because they can control the loss but affects moral. It’s a balancing act between morale and company survival.
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Old 29th Apr 2020, 11:04
  #47 (permalink)  
 
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So what are IAG doing at Iberia and Vuelling?
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Old 29th Apr 2020, 11:06
  #48 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by squidie View Post
At a business perspective; VR hurts the company more because it doesn't necessarily control who actually leaves the company. Whereas forced redundancy is better for the company because they can control the loss but affects moral. Itís a balancing act between morale and company survival.
Does BA have a ďlast on first offĒ contractual requirement for forced redundancy? In that case it may not be cheaper to make the most junior redundant, considering more senior employees may have to be retrained into their roles if thereís still a requirement for them.
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Old 29th Apr 2020, 11:17
  #49 (permalink)  
 
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Certainly in 2008 BA Management were at great pains to stress that LIFO was only ONE criteria it would use for forced redundancy.
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Old 29th Apr 2020, 11:35
  #50 (permalink)  
 
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I feel terribly sad at this news. I know the industry as a whole is suffering massively at the moment.

I took VR (cabin crew) in 2016 (and have not looked back) and still have many great friends at BA, both in the cabin and in the flight deck.

I really hope that those who want to stay, can and do, and those who are ready to leave, will be able to with dignity and enough to see them right.

That is indeed IF it comes to it for all of this to happen.

All the very best to all.
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Old 29th Apr 2020, 12:37
  #51 (permalink)  
 
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BA made 1.95 Billion Pounds last year.
They pay fat cats big money. They dominate the market and supress the emergence of competition, simply
by size and their monopoly out of the UK, and increasingly, through their owners IAG, EuropeIAG is incorporated as a Sociedad Anůnima in Spain, where the company board meetings are held, and is domiciled in Spain for tax purposes.[41][42][43][44] IAG has a primary listing on the London Stock Exchange.

No way BA should have a bailout, loan or otherwise from the UK tax payer. They have enjoyed their dominance of the marked and should be able to take it on the chin. No way BA.
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Old 29th Apr 2020, 12:48
  #52 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by 3Greens View Post
The statement from BA Is particularly aimed at U.K. GOV I Think. Thatís not to detract from the very serious trading conditions, but willie is in effect giving them a kick up the backside to remind them that if they donít give us a pathway out of this, The UK airline business will soon be decimated beyond recovery. A strange game of brinksmanship. Possibly some kind of message to not bail Virgin out too, but I was never much good at poker so I wonít comment on that further.
This is exactly what I thought too. The wording was very odd and deliberate about the U.K. taxpayer and not receiving government support.

When I first heard the statement, I thought it sounded like brinksmanship also but then dismissed this as it would be an odd thing to do.

Maybe itís just my disbelief at the scale of the problem.

Airlines are talking about reduced size post covid though so itís not entirely unexpected regardless of furlough schemes etc.

A lot can happen between now and the announcement and consultation process though so hopefully the landscape will be starting to look more positive by then.
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Old 29th Apr 2020, 13:51
  #53 (permalink)  

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Ho 'n' High, Sorry about the typo, I did mean redundancy, now corrected.

RoyHudd, When I was fairly new to BMA, as it was then known, I faced redundancy in my mid twenties with a wife and young family. At the same it was suggested by some of the more senior captains that certain individuals who had retired from BOAC and BEA on fat pensions may do the decent thing and resign to save the youngsters' jobs. They refused and the planned redundancies took place, fortunately I just missed the cut. Life has a funny way of dealing with things as one gentleman was dead within a year from cancer and never had a life in retirement, a pastime I can highly recommend. Yes I was lucky to stay in the same airline for over three decades but it did have its ups and downs, but the grass isn't always greener in the next field. I can think you can see now why I'm suggesting, possible too subtly, that the more senior employees might consider the option of early retirement.
One thing both have in common in a loathing for our erstwhile leader and how he treated his employees in the company pension fund, and don't forget it was a condition of service that you joined the company pension fund, no ifs or buts.
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Old 29th Apr 2020, 14:05
  #54 (permalink)  
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BA strategy ??

Interesting analysis...

https://news.sky.com/story/coronavir...nment-11980344
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Old 29th Apr 2020, 14:29
  #55 (permalink)  
 
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That’s been mentioned here before; where the airline should become kind of victorious over many other airlines after this crisis and assume their craters.
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Old 29th Apr 2020, 14:37
  #56 (permalink)  
 
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It doesn't take long for an airline the size of BA to lose a billion pounds, or two billion pounds. BA will be bust next year without one of: significant government funding, significant cost cutting, or significant and rapid resumption of air travel. The government isn't going to lift a finger that's clear (and the short-sighted environmental monomaniacs who think air travel and transport is an optional luxury that must be destroyed will only encourage that), nor is the government (of many countries) going to allow a rapid resumption of air travel.

So BA has cut costs or go bust.

And had it all gone fine this year, would everyone have been liking BA if they sat on their money instead of giving it to shareholders - and shareholders includes your pension funds, your personal stock investments (UK ISAs, and so on), life insurance companies, and all that sort of thing. Hardly "fat cats", actually your bread and your butter?

It's easy to blame a company for making a profit and paying a dividend last year instead of sitting on the cash. I can tell you for sure that companies do get blamed for not paying dividends if they make a profit - then they're selfish fat cats not paying out to their well-deserving shareholders who need a return on their investment.

Don't be so fast to criticise BA when they acted as companies are demanded to act in normal economic times and now they have to handle a deadly (to the company) crisis on their own.


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Old 29th Apr 2020, 15:17
  #57 (permalink)  
 
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Wiggy wrote:

A week or two is a long time in business/ "that was then and this is now"/the past is another country.

Two or three of weeks back I reckon many airline CEOs were simply seeing this in terms of their company vs the opposition and how do we come out of this on top...I reckon now more and more of them are simply concentrating on what they need to do to get their company through this at all.

I think he /"BA" are allowed to change his mind (not saying he or BA has)
I have no wish to score points; the situation is dire for all of us at the moment. However Willy Walsh came out with his dick swinging with one objective to see off Norwegian and Virgin. The CEO of Virgin realised the gravity of the situation and was the first to ask for a loan. Hopefully sense will prevail and airlines will get a credit line like most major carriers from around the world. Yes when this is over, things will look very different but lets do there most to minimise the hurt for all concerned.
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Old 29th Apr 2020, 15:28
  #58 (permalink)  
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BA Strategy

Originally Posted by squidie View Post
Thatís been mentioned here before; where the airline should become kind of victorious over many other airlines after this crisis and assume their craters.
Not sure whether you approve or disapprove. One thing for sure air travel will be in the doldrums for some time. How soon will it bounce back?? How long is a piece of string? It may well be survival of the fittest and if it is then you can't crticise BA. The only "unknown" will be the control governments have over their "flag carrier"(if they bail them out) and whether that will put "independant" airlines at a disadvantage. Government approval route wise etc might become difficult if the competition is a flag carrier the government has a financial interest in.
Lets hope the public travel asap. Whether they will be able to afford after job losses etc. another question.
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Old 29th Apr 2020, 16:13
  #59 (permalink)  
 
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Not too many weeks ago, BA told the world that they had huge financial reserves (9B Euros worth) and that companies that don't should not get a bail out from the government.

Currently a large number of BA staff are getting up to £2500/month of government money. BA are topping that up for some.
The furlough agreement entered into by many staff was on the proviso of no redundancies. BA can't have it both ways. This government subsidy was supposed to save jobs.

Len McClusky of Unite has come out swinging. We'll see how many punches strike the target.

Sackings unlawful and immoral
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Old 29th Apr 2020, 16:39
  #60 (permalink)  
 
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Massively sorry for everyone affected by this

However, the furlough scheme was never on that proviso, that's [email protected], I hope the unions succee and thrash out a great deal for staff, but they need to stick to fact.

Any redundancies will be after the furlough scheme ends, BA are just getting their ducks in a row
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