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IAG: BA restructuring may cost 12,000 jobs

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IAG: BA restructuring may cost 12,000 jobs

Old 14th May 2020, 00:11
  #501 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by HZ123 View Post
Besides what ever occurs there will be other airlines queuing up to fill in short falls!
IF it got to the point that BA had failed because things were so bad then somehow I doubt that assertion..
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Old 14th May 2020, 00:12
  #502 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Right Way Up View Post
To be fair the questioning the other day at the select committee was so poor, I am not sure how you come to that conclusion. One MP got stuck in and rattled him a bit, but otherwise he was very comfortable.
Am glad I'm not the only one who thought that.
I didn't see WW break a sweat. Could have been a lot worse.

I did post a comment about it being not so much a grilling, as a few minutes in the bun warmer. But it got deleted.
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Old 14th May 2020, 09:16
  #503 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by M.Mouse View Post
And the source for that assertion?

This was a possible source from March:

https://www.ft.com/content/1a52f686-...d-da70cff6e4d3
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Old 14th May 2020, 10:10
  #504 (permalink)  
 
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IF it got to the point that BA had failed because things were so bad then somehow I doubt that assertion..
Air France, KLM, Alitalia, Emirates, Qatar, China etc etc could all easily muscle in under fifth freedom rights.

Compared to a month ago when I'd have said failure of IAG (or British Airways) was virtually impossible I'd be a lot more circumspect now. I also wouldn't be at all surprised if BA re-issues the HR1 with further redundancies in the next few weeks. :-(
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Old 14th May 2020, 10:34
  #505 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by 777JRM View Post
This was a possible source from March:

https://www.ft.com/content/1a52f686-...d-da70cff6e4d3
Paywall Article
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Old 14th May 2020, 10:55
  #506 (permalink)  
 
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I managed to read it by Googling the title.
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Old 14th May 2020, 11:31
  #507 (permalink)  
 
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Aviation will be reshaped

I strongly believe that this unprecedented crisis will reshape aviation for ever.
Governments will do anything in their power to protect jobs, this goes together with protecting their national
interest especially in the case of national aviation which is a highly critical service in any modern economy.
Standard rules of deregulated Aviation are out of the window.
We have seen nothing yet.
The world has changed for ever.
Aviation has changed for ever and Governments will have no choice unless the crisis ends within a few more weeks which is very unlikely.



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Old 14th May 2020, 11:47
  #508 (permalink)  
 
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ILS27LEFT;

Whilst your passion & energy is to be admired, I don’t unfortunately get the feeling that the UK Government share your view. It may be that they are overwhelmed by the enormity of the task ahead as all sectors / industries start to buckle under the pressure of this crisis.I think it’s easy for us involved in aviation to focus solely on it. I hope I’m wrong but I don’t expect any UK Government support beyond what’s already in place sadly.
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Old 14th May 2020, 11:52
  #509 (permalink)  
 
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Very interesting reading. See the second link for legal detail.

https://commonslibrary.parliament.uk...om-redundancy/

https://www.matrixlaw.co.uk/wp-conte...l-Hutcheon.pdf

I think I'd want Darryl Hutcheon representing me.
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Old 14th May 2020, 12:24
  #510 (permalink)  
 
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Redundancies during JRS

Originally Posted by Bridchen View Post
Very interesting reading. See the second link for legal detail.

https://commonslibrary.parliament.uk...om-redundancy/

https://www.matrixlaw.co.uk/wp-conte...l-Hutcheon.pdf

I think I'd want Darryl Hutcheon representing me.
This is exactly why redundancies whilst CJRS will still be available are "illegal" as I explained many times before.
The intention of the legislator will influence a Judge final decision. The intention of the legislator re. CJRS is clearly and undoubtedly "to avoid redundancies".
In this respect unfair dismissal would be the outcome.
The biggest challenge is not only the legal one for BA but the moral significance vs employees & tax payers/Gov: no employer should make redundancies if CJRS is available as this is free money with nil cost to the employer.
BA can legally announce redundancies however BA cannot proceed if CJRS still in place by date of 1st redundancy.
If BA will decide to proceed will clearly be "unfair dismissal". This will cause immense damage to the brand and workforce at a much higher cost than the 12K salaries combined.
Suicidal business approach by BA if they will proceed with the 12K redundancies whilst CJRS still in place at nil cost to BA.

"Darryl Hutcheon, a barrister at Matrix Chambers, argues that while each case will ultimately turn on its facts, employees who are dismissed without being given the option of furlough would likely have a “powerful argument” for unfair dismissal. "

The CJRS has been extended until end of October and very likely the Aviation sector will be covered until then under the existing conditions.
BA therefore will be "unfairly dismissing" employees if redundancies are confirmed whilst CJRS scheme is still available.

BA can action redundancies from 01 Nov but only if CJRS will not be extended again for the sector.
Next extensions will very likely be sectorised.


Last edited by ILS27LEFT; 14th May 2020 at 12:56.
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Old 14th May 2020, 12:35
  #511 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Fursty Ferret View Post
Air France, KLM, Alitalia, Emirates, Qatar, China etc etc could all easily muscle in under fifth freedom rights
all of whom have problems of their own. It amazes me how people think that reality doesn’t apply to the financial situation during this pandemic and acquisitions and expansion can still go on as if there’s some sort of fantasy magic money tree.

(Well we know in the case of Alitalia and Air France financial reality doesn’t apply but any funding there is to continue to provide services to their individual country not a blank cheque to bankroll a mass expansion push to start fifth freedoming out of Heathrow and presumably other European Capitals. There’s also any number of reasons why the U.K. Government wouldn’t want that situation occurring).
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Old 14th May 2020, 12:48
  #512 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by ILS27LEFT View Post
BA can legally announce redundancies however BA cannot proceed if CJRS still in place by date of 1st redundancy.
If BA will decide to proceed will clearly be "unfair dismissal". Immense damage to the brand and workforce. Much higher cost than the 12K salaries combined! Suicidal approach by BA if they will proceed with the 12K redundancies.

"Darryl Hutcheon, a barrister at Matrix Chambers, argues that while each case will ultimately turn on its facts, employees who are dismissed without being given the option of furlough would likely have a “powerful argument” for unfair dismissal. "

The CJRS has been extended until end of October and very likely the Aviation sector will be covered until then under the existing conditions.
BA therefore will be "unfairly dismissing" employees if redundancies are confirmed whilst CJRS scheme still available.
Exactly. By which time, hopefully there'll be a fairer playing field for fairer negotiation. A legal friend said that on the back of BA's current battle-plan, if approached correctly, the employee claims on BA will run and run, and eventually cripple them.
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Old 14th May 2020, 13:03
  #513 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Bridchen View Post
Exactly. By which time, hopefully there'll be a fairer playing field for fairer negotiation. A legal friend said that on the back of BA's current battle-plan, if approached correctly, the employee claims on BA will run and run, and eventually cripple them.
This is exactly why the Government prefers to wait, the CJRS extension will allow for much better decision making including potential UK Gov stake in BA as final option.
The BA Legal Team is playing an extremely dangerous game here. A game much more expensive than the savings achieved through redundancies + new T&Cs.
Maybe they thought to be above the Law and above the Gov during this Crisis.
This Crisis is actually showing the good CEOs vs the bad CEOs, the good leaders vs the bad ones.
If we will see WW postponing his retirement again beyond Sep then we know this is personal to him.
BA should belong to the thousands of men & women who made it great and profitable over the years. Employees should also be shareholders by contract. If BA employees were shareholders I doubt Alex Cruz and WW would still be in charge now.

We better stop here.


Last edited by ILS27LEFT; 14th May 2020 at 13:26.
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Old 14th May 2020, 13:44
  #514 (permalink)  
 
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I think it's also a matter of other CEO's being told by their legal departments not to go near it.
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Old 14th May 2020, 18:39
  #515 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by ILS27LEFT View Post
This is exactly why redundancies whilst CJRS will still be available are "illegal" as I explained many times before.
The intention of the legislator will influence a Judge final decision. The intention of the legislator re. CJRS is clearly and undoubtedly "to avoid redundancies".
In this respect unfair dismissal would be the outcome.
The biggest challenge is not only the legal one for BA but the moral significance vs employees & tax payers/Gov: no employer should make redundancies if CJRS is available as this is free money with nil cost to the employer.
BA can legally announce redundancies however BA cannot proceed if CJRS still in place by date of 1st redundancy.
If BA will decide to proceed will clearly be "unfair dismissal". This will cause immense damage to the brand and workforce at a much higher cost than the 12K salaries combined.
Suicidal business approach by BA if they will proceed with the 12K redundancies whilst CJRS still in place at nil cost to BA.

"Darryl Hutcheon, a barrister at Matrix Chambers, argues that while each case will ultimately turn on its facts, employees who are dismissed without being given the option of furlough would likely have a “powerful argument” for unfair dismissal. "

The CJRS has been extended until end of October and very likely the Aviation sector will be covered until then under the existing conditions.
BA therefore will be "unfairly dismissing" employees if redundancies are confirmed whilst CJRS scheme is still available.

BA can action redundancies from 01 Nov but only if CJRS will not be extended again for the sector.
Next extensions will very likely be sectorised.
From the legal opinion linked above, it's not clear that BA making redundancies is a case of unfair dismissal - the barrister's view is far more nuanced than that.

BA's already made use of CJRS, the opinion focuses on use of CJRS rather than it's continued use when it becomes clear that the business won't recover, or will take a long time to recover post Covid and so need less staff

"Relevant factors would naturally include the size and resources of the employer, the employee’s responses to the consultation and to any proposed “furlough agreement”, and the suddenness and seriousness of the downturn which Coronavirus has caused for the business"

Airlines / travel sector have suffered a catastrophic collapse in demand that's going to continue for quite a while post lockdowns and so are going to need less staff.



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Old 14th May 2020, 22:40
  #516 (permalink)  
 
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If BA can make redundancies currently in its Cityflyer subsidiary I doubt that there will be much legally stopping them doing the same to mainline. The best the staff might get is that the threat of legal action, even if rather futile in the end, may make the company improve the redundancy terms. I dont see any airline coming out of this crisis with the same amount of staffing as they went in with - there are going to be many colleagues out of work for a long time.
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Old 15th May 2020, 03:02
  #517 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Jet II View Post
If BA can make redundancies currently in its Cityflyer subsidiary I doubt that there will be much legally stopping them doing the same to mainline. The best the staff might get is that the threat of legal action, even if rather futile in the end, may make the company improve the redundancy terms. I dont see any airline coming out of this crisis with the same amount of staffing as they went in with - there are going to be many colleagues out of work for a long time.
This last sentence highlights the mindset that so many have, and that they may wish to try to change. I doubt many of your colleagues will be out of work for long at all. They are most likely intelligent and driven people and they are unlikely to struggle to find work ... but it probably won’t be in aviation.

I have an uncle who lives in the North East and has been unemployed for around 25 years. He is fit, healthy and not stupid, but my god he is stubborn. He was a miner, and lost his job when the pits closed. He could do all manner of things, but he won’t. ‘He is a miner, and there is no work in mining, so he cannot work’. And that is that. He refuses to accept his chosen vocation is no longer an option, and so he festers.

It will be a bitter pill to swallow, but aviation has just changed. The definition of change is a permanent altering of state. This is happening now and will continue to do so for an unknown period of time. When the rate of change stabilizes and we all take stock, we will look upon a different industry. The one we knew has gone, it is dead, and by definition will never come back as it was.

The new reality for civil aviation will probably be a much smaller industry, salaries will be lower and the work/life balance will be worse (all my opinion - not fact). Market forces will see to this.

People can accept this change and try to stay in the industry, or they can moan and whine about what they have lost, or they can re-invent themselves and succeed elsewhere.

I have spent my life in aviation, and it is full of smart, honest and resourceful people. I very much doubt they will find themselves out of work for long, unless they choose to.
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Old 15th May 2020, 07:49
  #518 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by ILS27LEFT View Post

We better stop here.
I think you're right. I'm departing these forums from now on. Good luck!
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Old 15th May 2020, 08:08
  #519 (permalink)  
 
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On the other hand; when practically the whole country is out of work in a depression the likes of which the world has never seen before, what are the chances of a few thousand ex airline staff picking up any kind of work ?
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Old 15th May 2020, 08:14
  #520 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by kcockayne View Post
On the other hand; when practically the whole country is out of work in a depression the likes of which the world has never seen before, what are the chances of a few thousand ex airline staff picking up any kind of work ?
I know of a former FlyBe pilot who is now a Tesco delivery driver.
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