IAG: BA restructuring may cost 12,000 jobs

[guy_incognito]

Originally Posted by KYT

Prof Nutjob Ferguson predicted 200 million deaths from bird flu in 2005, there were a few hundred only, worldwide. Oh yes our leading SAGE boffin!

"Professor" Ferguson has caused more damage than Andrew Wakefield did and continues to do with his completely discredited MMR/ autism study. Wakefield was struck off by the GMC. I assume Ferguson is not similarly regulated by a professional body, but at the very least he should be removed from his post by Imperial.

[DaveReidUK]

Originally Posted by RexBanner

Senor Cruz: “It is now clear that we will not get back to 2019 flying until 2023 at the earliest”.

Sadly, though I hope he isn't, he's probably right.

[BleedingOn]

Originally Posted by xray one

for those who missed it

https://finance.yahoo.com/news/briti...072328319.html

£300 million from the government already in the bank! They kept that very quiet

[carmel]

Senor Cruz: “It is now clear that we will not get back to 2019 flying until 2023 at the earliest”.

I suppose the quote from Benjamin Disraeli sums it up best "I am prepared for the worst, but hope for the best."

You would assume the management team has access to information that isn't publicly available and it's not rosy.

[RexBanner]

Originally Posted by carmel

You would assume the management team has access to information that isn't publicly available and it's not rosy.

Nostradamus come back to life has he? Mystic Meg?

Seriously though the more you get to know these people the more you realise they’re just as clueless as the rest of us. Nobody has the faintest idea what the timescale on recovery is going to be but it sure gives them ammunition for an attack on Ts and Cs if they paint the direst picture possible.

[ILS27LEFT]

Spot on

Originally Posted by RexBanner

Nostradamus come back to life has he? Mystic Meg?

Seriously though the more you get to know these people the more you realise they’re just as clueless as the rest of us. Nobody has the faintest idea what the timescale on recovery is going to be but it sure gives them ammunition for an attack on Ts and Cs if they paint the direst picture possible.

Spot on and this is the main reason why top Managers should not play with people's lives without credible data during a crisis of this magnitude. The government wants to avoid at all costs mass redundancies and this is why Willie Walsh must explain in detail why BA keeps ignoring the Government"s approach whilst simultaneously taking advantage of Government funds. Obviously something doesn't sound right. The main issue is around the fact that Covid19 seems a great opportunity to force a massive restructure of BA obtained through mass dismissal of the entire workforce during the biggest crisis in Aviation history. Something the Government will try to avoid at all costs. It will set up a very dangerous precedent if successful, in a sector already dominated by a "race to the bottom". If BA can do it many others will follow across all sectors of the economy.
What a better opportunity to increase future profits by changing all contracts in the middle of this panic and reduce salaries + T&Cs?
The entire UK workforce should be united in keeping decent working conditions across all sectors of the economy especially now.
Let's not forget that only a few years back Willie Walsh strongly reiterated that a high number of BA contracts were not sustainable and BA's survival was at risk, the strikes were successful and WW was proven wrong due to the huge profits reported by BA since then, much larger profits than the other IAG airlines.
It is clearly not about survival at this stage but it seems another move "to increase personal bonuses if targets are met".
It is a highly complex battle however forcing your entire workforce to sign new contracts during this crisis is an act of war against your workforce. The consequences on staff morale and engagement will be catastrophic whatever the final outcome. Massive morale & trust damage is already done and I do not think such a massive betrayal from the highest ranks of BA can be resolved by BA and the Unions alone. This act of war is much bigger than anything seen before so either BA will win or the existing Management will have to be replaced. It might even end up with the Government retaking (partial) control of BA (for as long as necessary) as already happening in other countries.
It is an act of war and trust has been fully and permanently demolished in between this BA top management & the entire BA workforce.
They should have announced the possibility of redundancies in the future and nothing else (same as other airlines).
The act of war is the mass dismissals and unilaterally imposed re-employment on new contracts on much lower T&Cs and salaries. This is the essence of this cruel act of war.
Obviously the workforce must defend and respond accordingly on behalf of all UK (and beyond) salaried workers.

[Bridchen]

The UK workforce are being treated very differently to the other IAG carriers. Aer Lingus are trying to achieve cuts through voluntary redundancy on bespoke packages. Have a look at these, but not sure if you'll keep your breakfast down:
https://www.independent.ie/business/...-39155731.html
https://www.thejournal.ie/aer-lingus...88981-May2020/
So, if redundancies have to be made, then while IAG have sent off for another airline for a billion, perhaps they could treat their UK workforce with more respect, just like they do at home. There's a Telegraph article out this morning, and the comments section makes for interesting reading, especially a comment by Merrill Berthrong.
Personally, a lot of this is out of our control, but I think it's a very good idea to get on all of the comments sections in online news regarding this matter, to get the truth about Walsh/Cruz out there. Every voice counts, and one mind of the general public changed, will become the attitude of their friends. I'm doing one a day as a minimum.
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/business...-return-skies/

[GKOC41]

Originally Posted by Bridchen

The UK workforce are being treated very differently to the other IAG carriers. Aer Lingus are trying to achieve cuts through voluntary redundancy on bespoke packages. Have a look at these, but not sure if you'll keep your breakfast down:
https://www.independent.ie/business/...-39155731.html
https://www.thejournal.ie/aer-lingus...88981-May2020/
So, if redundancies have to be made, then while IAG have sent off for another airline for a billion, perhaps they could treat their UK workforce with more respect, just like they do at home. There's a Telegraph article out this morning, and the comments section makes for interesting reading, especially a comment by Merrill Berthrong.
Personally, a lot of this is out of our control, but I think it's a very good idea to get on all of the comments sections in online news regarding this matter, to get the truth about Walsh/Cruz out there. Every voice counts, and one mind of the general public changed, will become the attitude of their friends. I'm doing one a day as a minimum.
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/business...-return-skies/

Surprised DNATA will want to buy the catering unit given the current CV19 situation. Its also a different proposition to folk getting made redundant at BA.
But, it does seem to show on the ladder of staff care and engagement where BA are.

[Bridchen]

Originally Posted by GKOC41

Surprised DNATA will want to buy the catering unit given the current CV19 situation. It's also a different proposition to folk getting made redundant at BA.
But, it does seem to show on the ladder of staff care and engagement where BA are.

I agree, it is a different proposition. However, it was a deal struck within IAG with employees. As Aer Lingus, IAG engage in a friendly and generous manner. BA staff are treated like the enemy. When a group are acquiring another airline for a billion, they shouldn't need to treat one section of staff so shabbily to fund it. I suspect that a lot of slots will be quietly pushed over to the Spanish arm, with Heathrow and Gatwick grateful for the business. I'll reproduce the comment from the Telegraph article here. There's a lot of underhand business going on here. It's time people wake up.

[Bridchen]

“Writing in the Daily Mail, Mr Walsh said: “We’re a small island, and this Government looks set to make us even smaller on the world stage. Our leaders bestride the world saying the UK is open for business, but their actions do not match the rhetoric.

“If the Government continues to dither over a new runway, then I’ll move my business elsewhere.

We now have airlines in Dublin and Madrid, and can expand our business there, supporting the strengthening Irish and Spanish economies.

“This is not just fighting talk — we have the practical ability to expand elsewhere. This means Spain and Ireland will get the economic benefits and new jobs from our expansion plans, while the UK government twiddles its thumbs and watches as the world progresses around it.”

https://www.irishtimes.com/business/...blin-1.2467085

[kcockayne]

I think that there was a post on here yesterday to the effect that LIFO was discriminatory - against, obviously - recent recruits. Is it not the case that the whole exercise of choosing who to make redundant is a discriminatory process ? Therefore, whoever is chosen could claim that he has suffered from discrimination on the part of the company. In that case, isn’t LIFO just about the fairest method of choosing ? Or, has the world not gone mad ?

[Douglas Bahada]

The world has gone mad!

[the phone box]

Totally agree. LIFO has always been the standard (which Air NZ commendably stuck to) for the difficult task of selecting redundancies in a business where it is almost impossible to discriminate between employees on performance (we all do the same job and achieve the same results). It is the simplest and probably least bad solution to a horrible problem. But since the introduction of age discrimination (wasn’t that supposed to protect older people?) that clarity has gone and the entire workforce is potentially in the firing line, stress up to 11 all round. Progress?

[B Fraser]

I have no dog in this fight but am following it as a number of good mates are "Nigels" and galley crew..

"If the Government continues to dither over a new runway, then I’ll move my business elsewhere." If wee Willie Walsh is worried about runway capacity, why is he not expanding Gatwick rather than walking away ? The whiff of bullsh!t is getting stronger by the day.

[ILS27LEFT]

New IAG CEO will be IB CEO Luis Gallego

Originally Posted by B Fraser

I have no dog in this fight but am following it as a number of good mates are "Nigels" and galley crew..

"If the Government continues to dither over a new runway, then I’ll move my business elsewhere." If wee Willie Walsh is worried about runway capacity, why is he not expanding Gatwick rather than walking away ? The whiff of bullsh!t is getting stronger by the day.

This is why we must wake up before it will get too late, our lack of action can cause huge damage to the future of the UK aviation sector and especially BA/LHR/LGW etc. Willie Walsh will be replaced by the IB CEO Luis Gallego (in Sep instead of June due to Covid19), can't you see in what direction this will be going? Wake up. I hope that on Monday this issue will also come up. ES in charge of the UK National carrier just before Brexit is completed? No comment.

I personally and very strongly believe that the same cost cutting demanded by Alex Cruz & Co. can be achieved (If really necessary in the future) through a combination of voluntary redundancies, unpaid leave, early retirement, more part time contracts.
If the crisis will get prolonged into 2023 (as predicted by BA/IAG Nostradamus) then less working hours for all would be the best solution to protect jobs. Moving to part time/reduced salaries would be much fairer than ruining thousands of families and individuals in a post Covid 19 market as the present BA plan, unemployment will skyrocket (especially in travel/aviation related roles, at least until the market will recover) and finding an alternative job for those in aviation might be extremely difficult hence I am confident the "part time" option would be the best solution (again, only if necessary which nobody knows for sure at this early stage of the crisis).

[homonculus]

What part of less aviation needs less runway capacity does Mr Walsh not understand? He isnt paying for the infrastructure or disruption, at least not unless he uses the extra capacity post 2023 and pays the additional fees. It seems he wants his cake and eat it. So LHR and the taxpayer pays, the local communities are disrupted, just in case. And if aviation volume doesnt come back he just walks away. Call his bluff.

[procede]

Originally Posted by homonculus

extra capacity post 2023

Building the third runway will take many years, so this should not be an argument.
Using the not building the third runway (on what is currently BA headquarters) as an excuse is a bit strange as BA is actually one of the biggest opponents of the third runway, as it opens up Heathrow to more competition. At least half of the extra slots should go to other airlines and most of the slots BA does get should be used for opening up new routes...

[FlipFlapFlop]

Originally Posted by kcockayne

I think that there was a post on here yesterday to the effect that LIFO was discriminatory - against, obviously - recent recruits. Is it not the case that the whole exercise of choosing who to make redundant is a discriminatory process ? Therefore, whoever is chosen could claim that he has suffered from discrimination on the part of the company. In that case, isn’t LIFO just about the fairest method of choosing ? Or, has the world not gone mad ?

I guess the view on what method is discriminatory depends where you are on the BA seniority list. This is why a part time working solution for the duration plus advantageous VER and VR is the fairest for all. Besides, I think it unlikely newbies on PP34 are BAs main target.

[777aviator]

Originally Posted by FlipFlapFlop

I guess the view on what method is discriminatory depends where you are on the BA seniority list. This is why a part time working solution for the duration plus advantageous VER and VR is the fairest for all. Besides, I think it unlikely newbies on PP34 are BAs main target.

i would be very surprised if the current pay structure and pay points exist after this restructure. Simplified 2 stage for cruise pilots/Fo/Capt would save a fortune whatever your seniority so back to LIFO? Who knows but this speculation does fill the vacuum

[TURIN]

Originally Posted by kcockayne

I think that there was a post on here yesterday to the effect that LIFO was discriminatory - against, obviously - recent recruits. Is it not the case that the whole exercise of choosing who to make redundant is a discriminatory process ? Therefore, whoever is chosen could claim that he has suffered from discrimination on the part of the company. In that case, isn’t LIFO just about the fairest method of choosing ? Or, has the world not gone mad ?

When BA closed the Manchester hangar and got rid of the based 737 fleet a points system was devised in consultation with local reps and management.
The company wanted to use qualifications such as aircraft type ratings plus disciplinary and sickness/absence as a basis.
The staff side argued that LIFO should also be part of the criteria.
Eventually, the disciplinary and sickness/absence was dropped as it was felt certain individuals would be unfairly discriminated against.
A combination of LIFO and type ratings was used with varying degrees of weight given to different types. In the end the weighting was roughly 50% LIFO and 50% type ratings. This meant that someone with lots of type ratings would have more points than someone with fewer types but lots of service.
It wasn't perfect and in the end 75% of the staff were made redundant but it was the fairest achieved at the time in a post 9-11 world.