IAG: BA restructuring may cost 12,000 jobs
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I'd suggest the following might be constructive:
1. A very public offer from the unions of dramatically reduced salary (50%+?) & part time arrangements for perhaps 6 months in return for no forced redundancy. If BA's real motivation was to reduce staff costs to get through the crisis (it's obviously not!!), this would solve their problem. OTOH, their refusal of this offer would confirm beyond any doubt their nefarious motives. A big price to pay on the off chance they did accept but nothing compared to the job losses & T&C decimation suggested
2. Unity within the BA pilot community - bickering about who is being more selfish by keeping their job isn't going to help anyone - you're all getting rodgered at this rate!
3. Working with other departments - don't forget that CC, Engineering and others are going through the same as you at this point. I know the relationship has been a little acrimonious at times, but you're in this together, and will only be able to get out of it together. CC in particular may be a useful ally - their plight might be an easier sell to the tabloids.
4. Work with the rest of the industry - Somewhat ironically, it may be very much in your interests for Virgin to get the loan / bailout they are seeking. It would effectively force BA to do the same, and as mentioned above, this is the opportunity to enforce conditions on job retention & protection of T&Cs
No 1 would need to be soon.....before the likely beneficiaries of redundancy become known. Today this would have almost unanimous support I suspect. Tomorrow..maybe not.
No 2 Yep
No 3 Yep
No 4 Yep
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Age discrimination
Last edited by ILS27LEFT; 3rd May 2020 at 14:39.
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E-mail address of UK Transport Committee
Email is [email protected]
Next meeting is on Wed.
Email them if you think Willie Walsh and Alex Cruz must be scrutinised by the Transport Committee on behalf of the UK tax payers.
To the attention of the Chair
Next meeting is on Wed.
Email them if you think Willie Walsh and Alex Cruz must be scrutinised by the Transport Committee on behalf of the UK tax payers.
To the attention of the Chair
Huw Merriman
Please also cc in [email protected]
RunningRidges - Excellent points well made. In the 1980s BA also faced an “existential crisis” with massive numbers cuts and changes to T&Cs across the board. It was successfully handled because under the leadership of Mark Young, who was BALPA General Sec at the time. Young was a tough, working class street-fighting Geordie, once a Communist but the person who had pulled the rug from under the Communists in a ballot rigging scandal at the Electrical Trades Union (EETPU).
As leader of ALL the TUs on a joint negotiation he pushed through a programme whereby there were NO compulsory redundancies BUT a lot of voluntary ones, plus T&C changes. A critical aspect was allowing BA to redeployment of ANY employee to a different role, but with protected pay. So surplus pilots ended up as cabin crew, doing office jobs, loaders, securty guards or whatever. When the storm had passed, they were recalled to where new pilot vacancies were.
(As an aside, having been dragged kicking and screaming from the RHS on a VC10 to the rear galley on a 707 or whatever, some found that having no responsibility but most of their normal income plus being generally a straight minority male working with lots of female CC on LH schedules wasn’t too much of a bad deal, and had to be dragged kicking and screaming back…).
Anyway the point is that proposing and publicising a massive and drastic action, and recognizing that it’s an all-employees crisis is likely to be the only possible way to shield from the predatory actions of the £$%&*s now running the company.
See also https://www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/b...nity-66znfh7rr
Petition signed and watching with huge concern from the sidelines
As leader of ALL the TUs on a joint negotiation he pushed through a programme whereby there were NO compulsory redundancies BUT a lot of voluntary ones, plus T&C changes. A critical aspect was allowing BA to redeployment of ANY employee to a different role, but with protected pay. So surplus pilots ended up as cabin crew, doing office jobs, loaders, securty guards or whatever. When the storm had passed, they were recalled to where new pilot vacancies were.
(As an aside, having been dragged kicking and screaming from the RHS on a VC10 to the rear galley on a 707 or whatever, some found that having no responsibility but most of their normal income plus being generally a straight minority male working with lots of female CC on LH schedules wasn’t too much of a bad deal, and had to be dragged kicking and screaming back…).
Anyway the point is that proposing and publicising a massive and drastic action, and recognizing that it’s an all-employees crisis is likely to be the only possible way to shield from the predatory actions of the £$%&*s now running the company.
See also https://www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/b...nity-66znfh7rr
Petition signed and watching with huge concern from the sidelines
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Ruthless turning crisis into an opportunity.
RunningRidges - Excellent points well made. In the 1980s BA also faced an “existential crisis” with massive numbers cuts and changes to T&Cs across the board. It was successfully handled because under the leadership of Mark Young, who was BALPA General Sec at the time. Young was a tough, working class street-fighting Geordie, once a Communist but the person who had pulled the rug from under the Communists in a ballot rigging scandal at the Electrical Trades Union (EETPU).
As leader of ALL the TUs on a joint negotiation he pushed through a programme whereby there were NO compulsory redundancies BUT a lot of voluntary ones, plus T&C changes. A critical aspect was allowing BA to redeployment of ANY employee to a different role, but with protected pay. So surplus pilots ended up as cabin crew, doing office jobs, loaders, securty guards or whatever. When the storm had passed, they were recalled to where new pilot vacancies were.
(As an aside, having been dragged kicking and screaming from the RHS on a VC10 to the rear galley on a 707 or whatever, some found that having no responsibility but most of their normal income plus being generally a straight minority male working with lots of female CC on LH schedules wasn’t too much of a bad deal, and had to be dragged kicking and screaming back…).
Anyway the point is that proposing and publicising a massive and drastic action, and recognizing that it’s an all-employees crisis is likely to be the only possible way to shield from the predatory actions of the £$%&*s now running the company.
See also https://www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/b...nity-66znfh7rr
Petition signed and watching with huge concern from the sidelines
As leader of ALL the TUs on a joint negotiation he pushed through a programme whereby there were NO compulsory redundancies BUT a lot of voluntary ones, plus T&C changes. A critical aspect was allowing BA to redeployment of ANY employee to a different role, but with protected pay. So surplus pilots ended up as cabin crew, doing office jobs, loaders, securty guards or whatever. When the storm had passed, they were recalled to where new pilot vacancies were.
(As an aside, having been dragged kicking and screaming from the RHS on a VC10 to the rear galley on a 707 or whatever, some found that having no responsibility but most of their normal income plus being generally a straight minority male working with lots of female CC on LH schedules wasn’t too much of a bad deal, and had to be dragged kicking and screaming back…).
Anyway the point is that proposing and publicising a massive and drastic action, and recognizing that it’s an all-employees crisis is likely to be the only possible way to shield from the predatory actions of the £$%&*s now running the company.
See also https://www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/b...nity-66znfh7rr
Petition signed and watching with huge concern from the sidelines
Strongly agree with both of you and thanks for your input.
"... this maelstrom has given them cover to do what they wanted to do anyway."...we all know this is very true.
Before announcing the mass dismissal of the entire workforce there should have been a civilized discussion around all other options on the table, all options ranging from voluntary redundancies to more part time contracts, unpaid leave, even reduced salaries for all on a temporary basis and much much more, anything that would have saved jobs in the long term.
Nobody is expecting 100% pay during these difficult times and the top priority is to save as many jobs as possible.
The BA top Management's approach means clearly that "this maelstrom has given them cover to do what they wanted to do anyway" so they will have to explain their actions in front of the Transport Committee. They should not be afraid to attend if there is nothing to hide.
" We did invite Willie Walsh, of IAG, to attend as a witness but he is tied up with a board meeting. This is unfortunate because Willie is not backwards in coming forwards. Instead, Airlines UK, the umbrella organisation for UK airlines, which includes BA, will give evidence alongside the Chief Executive of Heathrow and others. In the next session, on 20 May, we will hear from the unions and the Aviation Minister."
"If Willie Walsh is tied up then he should run an organisation where he can delegate someone to speak on his behalf."
These are the words of the Chair of the Transport Committee, the MP who represents the UK Public during this crisis re. the BA announcement and he is simply furious because he is trying to do his job in the interest of the British public and Tax Payers whilst Willie Walsh replies that he cannot attend because he has got more important things to do. Really? What can it be more important than the Chair of the Transport Committee during this Crisis? Let's hope that Willie Walsh will also do his job and attend or at least provide a credible reason for not attending or delegate. His salary is well above all of us on this forum combined but he can choose not to attend such an important meeting. Or maybe the truth is that he does not want to attend...? The meeting is on video conference so he should definitely attend as this is affecting 12K human beings and beyond. This crisis is affecting BA and the UK Aviation industry more than anything else we have seen before in aviation history...and he cannot attend. Is this a joke? In his role he should not have a choice. It should be a mandatory attendance.
In other countries is ILLEGAL to announce or plan redundancies during the COVID19 crisis and whilst Governments have stepped in with JRS measures. In the UK has not been declared illegal however this is implied indirectly within the JRS legislation, this was the intention of the legislator, to simply avoid redundancies and restructuring until the Crisis is over.
Next Wed 06th of May live on BBC Parliament the below:
"Willie Walsh not attending"Dear Allison, Thank you for your message. I am incredibly sorry that, at this time of great uncertainty for the nation, British Airways, and their parent, IAG, have made a decision to put thousands of employees through a consultation with a view to 12,000 redundancies across its workforce. From a local perspective, and not always appreciated by all constituents, I have been a vocal supporter of Gatwick and of BA at Gatwick. The constituency I represent has relatively low wages compared to the regional norm. Those who work at Gatwick are able to boost our local economy. This is even more important at this current time. Talk of BA withdrawing from Gatwick would be devastating for our local economy and our ability to connect with the globe. From a national perspective, I chair the Transport Select Committee. Next Wednesday morning, we are holding our first session on our Inquiry around Aviation and the impact from Coronavirus. Details are below: https://www.parliament.uk/business/c...ansport-19-21/ We did invite Willie Walsh, of IAG, to attend as a witness but he is tied up with a board meeting. This is unfortunate because Willie is not backwards in coming forwards. Instead, Airlines UK, the umbrella organisation for UK airlines, which includes BA, will give evidence alongside the Chief Executive of Heathrow and others. In the next session, on 20 May, we will hear from the unions and the Aviation Minister. We will be asking about the planned redundancies. Of key concern to me is whether BA are using this epidemic environment to restructure. I appreciate that there is huge uncertainty, and a view that the market may not return to pre-Covid times until 2023 (if it does). BA, and it’s parent, have to prepare for this. The furloughing scheme will not last indefinitely but BA have been fast out of the blocks if this is just a reaction to the Covid 19 epidemic. My concern on this front is not helped by the news, which has just now broken, that IAG has just taken out a €1 billion Spanish state-backed loan. Previously, Willie Walsh lambasted other airlines for looking for state aid. With £7billion of reserves, IAG stated that it would address internally with ‘self-help’ before it resorted to Government aid. It is important that this ‘self-help’ is not job losses in the UK, as opposed to the position in Spain where fewer job losses are expected and the company has sought Government finance. I hasten to add that it is my understanding that IAG/BA have not come to the UK Government or Bank of England to ask for aid before making the announcement on redundancies. There are many questions which require answers from BA. As a result, I have sought permission from my committee members to ensure that BA do appear before the Transport Select Committee. If Willie Walsh is tied up then he should run an organisation where he can delegate someone to speak on his behalf. This is all moving at pace but I hope it demonstrates that I will use my local and national voice to hold British Airways to account. I have also reached out to other MPs to ramp up the pressure. You will be able to watch our virtual Select Committee proceedings, either on Parliament TV or BBC Parliament (which tends to catch up). With best wishes,"
Last edited by ILS27LEFT; 3rd May 2020 at 17:35.
Years ago, during the BASSA 2010 strike which lead, due to BASSA's incompetence, to the formation of MF, BA had a "list" of changes that they wanted.
WW was then the CEO of BA.
WW has stuck around in IAG.
IAG gets over a Billion from Spain. He is not asking for anything from Boris.
Is it adding up 2 + 2 to equal 5 to think that WW has now dug out his list from 2009/2010??
It is a big shame that PCCC did not rise up and crush BASSA??
WW was then the CEO of BA.
WW has stuck around in IAG.
IAG gets over a Billion from Spain. He is not asking for anything from Boris.
Is it adding up 2 + 2 to equal 5 to think that WW has now dug out his list from 2009/2010??
It is a big shame that PCCC did not rise up and crush BASSA??
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Irrelevant that pilots have not been furloughed as BA is taking millions of pounds from the JRS to pay the rest of the company therefore their plan remains technically illegal during JRS and the Transport Committee will stop it.
The UK Government is taking this issue very seriously as BA action could trigger an extremely dangerous chain reaction across many other companies, BA will be stopped by the Government whatever it takes. Unions' existence is also at stake here so this is an historical moment for the future of the UK economy and its workforce.
If Willie Walsh and Alex Cruz genuinely believe that BA will be losing money after the COVID19 crisis will end, then they are very welcome to transfer ownership back to the UK Government which would be extremely happy to take over BA with its long term profitability.
The UK Government is taking this issue very seriously as BA action could trigger an extremely dangerous chain reaction across many other companies, BA will be stopped by the Government whatever it takes. Unions' existence is also at stake here so this is an historical moment for the future of the UK economy and its workforce.
If Willie Walsh and Alex Cruz genuinely believe that BA will be losing money after the COVID19 crisis will end, then they are very welcome to transfer ownership back to the UK Government which would be extremely happy to take over BA with its long term profitability.
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I think we need to look at the motives of WW and AC, and fight their tactic......
...For starters, could BA ‘legally’ take the Government’s JRS, whilst entering the redundancy consultation period....only to withdraw from the JRS after deciding on the redundancies, on day 45? If BA can get away with a loophole that does not expressly exclude this tactic, perhaps the BALPA and Unite reps could close this avenue ASAP, by Union HQ’s Legal Team action. Or at least, get MPs to pose the question so that all will be aware and have some ammunition to fight gutter tactics like this!
...For starters, could BA ‘legally’ take the Government’s JRS, whilst entering the redundancy consultation period....only to withdraw from the JRS after deciding on the redundancies, on day 45? If BA can get away with a loophole that does not expressly exclude this tactic, perhaps the BALPA and Unite reps could close this avenue ASAP, by Union HQ’s Legal Team action. Or at least, get MPs to pose the question so that all will be aware and have some ammunition to fight gutter tactics like this!
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This is a business that has a massive drop in demand for a huge part of their workforce, redundancies are inevitable. Legal action trying to retain all employment is delusional.
Focus on trying to compromise, job share, part time etc etc
I am honestly sorry for anyone losing their livelyhood but
This is a business that has a massive drop in demand for a huge part of their workforce, redundancies are inevitable. Legal action trying to retain all employment is delusional.
Focus on trying to compromise, job share, part time etc etc
This is a business that has a massive drop in demand for a huge part of their workforce, redundancies are inevitable. Legal action trying to retain all employment is delusional.
Focus on trying to compromise, job share, part time etc etc
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I'd suggest the following might be constructive:
1. A very public offer from the unions of dramatically reduced salary (50%+?) & part time arrangements for perhaps 6 months in return for no forced redundancy. If BA's real motivation was to reduce staff costs to get through the crisis (it's obviously not!!), this would solve their problem. OTOH, their refusal of this offer would confirm beyond any doubt their nefarious motives. A big price to pay on the off chance they did accept but nothing compared to the job losses & T&C decimation suggested
2. Unity within the BA pilot community - bickering about who is being more selfish by keeping their job isn't going to help anyone - you're all getting rodgered at this rate!
3. Working with other departments - don't forget that CC, Engineering and others are going through the same as you at this point. I know the relationship has been a little acrimonious at times, but you're in this together, and will only be able to get out of it together. CC in particular may be a useful ally - their plight might be an easier sell to the tabloids.
4. Work with the rest of the industry - Somewhat ironically, it may be very much in your interests for Virgin to get the loan / bailout they are seeking. It would effectively force BA to do the same, and as mentioned above, this is the opportunity to enforce conditions on job retention & protection of T&Cs
1. A very public offer from the unions of dramatically reduced salary (50%+?) & part time arrangements for perhaps 6 months in return for no forced redundancy. If BA's real motivation was to reduce staff costs to get through the crisis (it's obviously not!!), this would solve their problem. OTOH, their refusal of this offer would confirm beyond any doubt their nefarious motives. A big price to pay on the off chance they did accept but nothing compared to the job losses & T&C decimation suggested
2. Unity within the BA pilot community - bickering about who is being more selfish by keeping their job isn't going to help anyone - you're all getting rodgered at this rate!
3. Working with other departments - don't forget that CC, Engineering and others are going through the same as you at this point. I know the relationship has been a little acrimonious at times, but you're in this together, and will only be able to get out of it together. CC in particular may be a useful ally - their plight might be an easier sell to the tabloids.
4. Work with the rest of the industry - Somewhat ironically, it may be very much in your interests for Virgin to get the loan / bailout they are seeking. It would effectively force BA to do the same, and as mentioned above, this is the opportunity to enforce conditions on job retention & protection of T&Cs
Also agree that soliloquy won’t appeal to many. If ‘middle class, solidly home counties’ was edited out, it would go a lot further!
Only half a speed-brake
I would ad re-hire guarantees,
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I am afraid to say I put a lot of this at BASSA’s door (obviously not the crisis but the tactics) - years of intransigence and incompetence especially in 2010 coming back to bite them in the proverbial along with others. Still a very unpleasant situation. Hopefully now they will talk sensibly and not come up with theme tunes, references to Keir Hardy and carnivals at rugby grounds......this is serious and I hope for the sake of all concerned will lead to serious, realistic discussion. Crew need good, authentic and proper representation.
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A serious question - what ammunition do the TU’s have at the moment ? Industrial action seems to be toothless at the moment, huge swathes of public sympathy unlikely, given the climate ? I can only think of some sort of legal spanner or political intervention.....or am I missing something ?
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So IAG plan to make 12000 redundant in the UK, borrow €1bn to keep Iberia afloat, but carry on the with purchase of Air Europa in Spain which was originally agreed at €1bn which they're attempting to renegotiate currently.
If you don't have the resources to keep either of your main airlines running without drastic measures you shouldn't be out spending hundreds of millions on buying another airline.....
If you don't have the resources to keep either of your main airlines running without drastic measures you shouldn't be out spending hundreds of millions on buying another airline.....
Controversial, moi?
This thread is so full of emotion, fanciful notions and talk of legal action with no firm legal basis to pursue such legal action that it would be comical to read were the situation not so dire and worrying for BA employees.
Just to inject some reality into the situation. BA has circa 4,500 pilots. BA has a pilot salary scale with 24 annual increments (old scales) or 34 annual increments (new scales following the increased retirement age). This means in early years the salaries are quite low and in later years quite high. Let's say the AVERAGE average BA pilot salary is £60,000 p.a. although it is probably higher.That makes the pilot only salary bill £22.5m per month.
Currently BA is operating a handful of daily flights and even when restrictions are lifted what do people think the loads will be like and how long will it take to recover to pre-Covid levels of operation?
BA has well over 40,000 staff in total. If you were the management would you say lets keep everybody on the payroll until things improve? Or would you make drastic changes to staff levels to ensure the company survives?
The opportunistic smash and grab of Ts & Cs is beneath contempt but the cold facts are that without a big cull of costs BA will not survive with or without government loans.
I fail to see the relevance of what is happening in Spain - different companies, different airlines, different government and different rules.
Just to inject some reality into the situation. BA has circa 4,500 pilots. BA has a pilot salary scale with 24 annual increments (old scales) or 34 annual increments (new scales following the increased retirement age). This means in early years the salaries are quite low and in later years quite high. Let's say the AVERAGE average BA pilot salary is £60,000 p.a. although it is probably higher.That makes the pilot only salary bill £22.5m per month.
Currently BA is operating a handful of daily flights and even when restrictions are lifted what do people think the loads will be like and how long will it take to recover to pre-Covid levels of operation?
BA has well over 40,000 staff in total. If you were the management would you say lets keep everybody on the payroll until things improve? Or would you make drastic changes to staff levels to ensure the company survives?
The opportunistic smash and grab of Ts & Cs is beneath contempt but the cold facts are that without a big cull of costs BA will not survive with or without government loans.
I fail to see the relevance of what is happening in Spain - different companies, different airlines, different government and different rules.
.... But M, all in the same Group, and with a CEO who has stated he is against intervention for one of the OpCos in the Group but appears to be happy to take it for another..
It's appalling optics and that's why feeling is running high....
".... But M, all in the same Group, and with a CEO who has stated he is against intervention for one of the OpCos in the Group but appears to be happy to take it for another.."
Since discrete figures have been published for BA, presumably - as you would expect - each company is run separately and maybe the Spanish divisions are not making much/any profit. IAG may also be being pressurised by the Spanish government to make minimal cuts and being rewarded for not doing so.
Anyway, as MM has pointed out ( and the optics are irrelevant ) no company can afford to use its cash reserves to employ 25% of its staff to sit at home for six or nine months, as it may need those reserves later if this terrible situation continues.
Since discrete figures have been published for BA, presumably - as you would expect - each company is run separately and maybe the Spanish divisions are not making much/any profit. IAG may also be being pressurised by the Spanish government to make minimal cuts and being rewarded for not doing so.
Anyway, as MM has pointed out ( and the optics are irrelevant ) no company can afford to use its cash reserves to employ 25% of its staff to sit at home for six or nine months, as it may need those reserves later if this terrible situation continues.