seniority lists discussion..... Again!
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I would take cargo over airlines any day, having done years of airline flying I can truly say Im over it and have no desire to go back. Having a family to support though means I would go back for their sake if I had no choice and a good opportunity arose.
All being equal though I would take cargo if given the choice.
All being equal though I would take cargo if given the choice.
3RDi
No I'm not, I dont hold the pax airlines on a pedestal but they do suit my lifestyle. I would sooner persue the biz or cargo scene before changing career however. In the theme of the thread I would expect to start at the bottom of course.
No I'm not, I dont hold the pax airlines on a pedestal but they do suit my lifestyle. I would sooner persue the biz or cargo scene before changing career however. In the theme of the thread I would expect to start at the bottom of course.
Last edited by Lapon; 7th Apr 2020 at 01:43.
My last airline was a cargo airline. I was there for 19 years and although it had its moments, it was an excellent job. We always did particularly well when the world was in crisis and it was so refreshingly hassle-free after many years of flying punters.
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Quite confident most crew that brought value to their company will have a job to go back to. Hope you score well on your evaluations. If not, all the best competing with cargo drivers. Trying your luck in business aviation is going to be difficult as you won’t be made captain should you be fortunate to be considered in the first place. If unless you have experience in this sector. It’s well known airline men/women don’t prefer bizjets and are not considered.
What alternative careers would you consider? Someone mentioned becoming a surgeon, for example
What alternative careers would you consider? Someone mentioned becoming a surgeon, for example
Alternative careers would generally involve going to back to a previous line of work (aviation was a career change for me many years ago anyway), or persue a new interest if the the immediacy of a paycheck was not important.
Talking to most now redundant pilots I know (airline-pax) they intent to get back into it when things pick up in the months or years ahead. The only variation is what they will spend that time doing, and that is a function of thier own financial security at this moment in time.
Talking to most now redundant pilots I know (airline-pax) they intent to get back into it when things pick up in the months or years ahead. The only variation is what they will spend that time doing, and that is a function of thier own financial security at this moment in time.
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Worth having a read of the various Wizz threads to see what life is like when the axe swings in an airline where you have no Seniority List and no Union to represent you. And it ain't over yet.
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I spent most of my airline career on reserve due to the position of hitting a hiring freeze first right after hire as FO, then shortly after upgrade to Captain. It was my experience that having seniority decide every single decision caused a vast disparity in lifestyle between top seniority pilots, who had 20 days off a month, and people who were stuck 2-leg commuting to reserve to outstation bases.
It created an unhealthy competitive atmosphere where every pilot was willing to step on someone else's situation hard in order to make theirs even a tiny amount better. I applied for Netjets after hearing from friends there who seemed much better treated. From what I understood, their system was much more balanced, as most pilots were on the same 7 days on, 7 days off system, but preferential schedule only shifted the days. That would have prevented ridiculous situations like mine, where I worked every weekend and holiday.
Pilots at Netjets were also provided revenue tickets to their bases, given they lived within a certain distance from a major airport. I felt this was a much better way to treat pilots than my airline, which displaced pilots after closing a base, but forced you to fend for yourself with nonrevenue flying.
After being in the corporate non-flying world for nearly as long as I was in flying (10 years flying, 9 corporate), no system is perfect, but the industry seems to be the prime driver of quality of life, followed by company culture. If you can find both of those, even a seniority system won't put you at a disadvantage if everyone is treated well.
It created an unhealthy competitive atmosphere where every pilot was willing to step on someone else's situation hard in order to make theirs even a tiny amount better. I applied for Netjets after hearing from friends there who seemed much better treated. From what I understood, their system was much more balanced, as most pilots were on the same 7 days on, 7 days off system, but preferential schedule only shifted the days. That would have prevented ridiculous situations like mine, where I worked every weekend and holiday.
Pilots at Netjets were also provided revenue tickets to their bases, given they lived within a certain distance from a major airport. I felt this was a much better way to treat pilots than my airline, which displaced pilots after closing a base, but forced you to fend for yourself with nonrevenue flying.
After being in the corporate non-flying world for nearly as long as I was in flying (10 years flying, 9 corporate), no system is perfect, but the industry seems to be the prime driver of quality of life, followed by company culture. If you can find both of those, even a seniority system won't put you at a disadvantage if everyone is treated well.
Only half a speed-brake
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TWA, Eastern Airlines, Pan Am, Swissair, SABENA. All 'legacy career airlines'. All with seniority systems. How was job security with them?
Earnest Gann has been mentioned. He got out of the airline industry when he saw, as a senior pilot in his airline how unfair the system was on people, not on their own choices or decisions but entirely on the decisions of those in management or the quirks of business at the time.
Earnest Gann has been mentioned. He got out of the airline industry when he saw, as a senior pilot in his airline how unfair the system was on people, not on their own choices or decisions but entirely on the decisions of those in management or the quirks of business at the time.
in each of those cases there were pilots who spent years building the airline and their seniority. How right is it to try and bypass that system and cut in line?
At the point that you’re safe and professional, the difference in piloting skills become less important. Do you want an airline that promotes the guy/gal with no kids and is willing to work work work? Or that chooses to furlough or make redundant the pilot with expensive health issues and too many sick calls? Look at EK and you’ll see professionals mid career with kids in college being let go because they cost more.
Gann tried to sharp shoot the system and he finally left flying. He could have stayed and his seniority would have been just fine. Yes, there is always the risk of a defunct airline or a bad merger. I’m on airline number 6.
sorry to revive this, but I just reread “Fate is the Hunter.”
Last edited by cessnaxpilot; 8th Aug 2020 at 20:18.
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The only guys against seniorty lists are the ones working for a non seniority list company. Guys that don't want to wait for their turn and sell them selves to the lowest... "just for my upgrade. I don't mind getting a SO pay check flying on the left seat, build my hours and then try a DEC on a Major..." But, ups, wana come to a Major, get in line mister. They were not the only ones with experience. Some TRI/TRE License holders have less experience and skills then most of the SFO on the Major. But they still say they have right of way...
There are people that even pay to fly.
And now, on the biggest colapse of our industry, some work for free. They call them selves the smart guys... "at least I keep my self current..." no wonder big companies are now working on fully automated birds. I wouldn't thrust my name in such a low characters who call them Selves Pilots.
Once and for all, Airlines need Pilots.
Are we too many?
From the first day somebody payed for the type rating we were "one too much".
Remember? At start pay the TR, then the MCC, then if you pay the TR I let you work 500 hour (for free of course), then 1000, now something about upset ?!?!?!?!
We all failed. We did this to our selves. COVID just showed us how much. We are a group of individuals. Nothing more than that.
There are people that even pay to fly.
And now, on the biggest colapse of our industry, some work for free. They call them selves the smart guys... "at least I keep my self current..." no wonder big companies are now working on fully automated birds. I wouldn't thrust my name in such a low characters who call them Selves Pilots.
Once and for all, Airlines need Pilots.
Are we too many?
From the first day somebody payed for the type rating we were "one too much".
Remember? At start pay the TR, then the MCC, then if you pay the TR I let you work 500 hour (for free of course), then 1000, now something about upset ?!?!?!?!
We all failed. We did this to our selves. COVID just showed us how much. We are a group of individuals. Nothing more than that.
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It’s always been this way . Rapidly expanding / places with less applicants have always hired DEC .
Legacy hasn’t . I think seniority is fair in so much as everyone should get a shot at promotion eventually - even if people outside the airlines can’t understand the lack of transferability for captains
Legacy hasn’t . I think seniority is fair in so much as everyone should get a shot at promotion eventually - even if people outside the airlines can’t understand the lack of transferability for captains
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Overheat
Sounds like the airline pilots that have been made redundant becoming FI’s just to keep their hand in flying until things get back to normal. Pay isn’t important to them (it’s in black and white above) but more than happy to sell themselves short just to fly something. Yes, I have spoken face to face with enough interested airline guys that haven’t ever considered become an FI ordinarily.
Sounds like the airline pilots that have been made redundant becoming FI’s just to keep their hand in flying until things get back to normal. Pay isn’t important to them (it’s in black and white above) but more than happy to sell themselves short just to fly something. Yes, I have spoken face to face with enough interested airline guys that haven’t ever considered become an FI ordinarily.
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Working for seniority based airline.
Ernest K. Gann wrote that seniority implied the ostrich-like philosophy that one man can fly as well as another but that the system must remain forever, if only to protect the weak (actual wording may be a bit different, as this is re-translated from German).
I'd paraphrase Churchill, seniority may be the worst system, except for other systems that have been tried from time to time. Merit-based systems may look objective on paper but there's always some leeway for those who hand out the merit points. There is no yardstick to objectively measure who's the best pilot and there are too many variables in daily ops to use operational data to determine who's better. I dare say we are barely able to find out who's good enough.
There is a drawback to seniority if your carrier goes bust. That could but is unlikely to actually be fixed by seniority systems spanning multiple carriers. US ALPA studied that in the past but never came to an agreement to actually implement it.
Ernest K. Gann wrote that seniority implied the ostrich-like philosophy that one man can fly as well as another but that the system must remain forever, if only to protect the weak (actual wording may be a bit different, as this is re-translated from German).
I'd paraphrase Churchill, seniority may be the worst system, except for other systems that have been tried from time to time. Merit-based systems may look objective on paper but there's always some leeway for those who hand out the merit points. There is no yardstick to objectively measure who's the best pilot and there are too many variables in daily ops to use operational data to determine who's better. I dare say we are barely able to find out who's good enough.
There is a drawback to seniority if your carrier goes bust. That could but is unlikely to actually be fixed by seniority systems spanning multiple carriers. US ALPA studied that in the past but never came to an agreement to actually implement it.
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Still working very well as it has always done in a big UK airline. I take it flyhigh55 you only joined a seniority based airline later on in your career or are with the current crisis having second thoughts about your career decisions you have made earlier on in your career (maybe that quick command wasn't the be all in the end)
If airlines used the date of issue of your Airline Transport licence to decided seniority it would allow transferring pilots to slot into an new company in the same relative position on the list.
Which is exactly why they don't do that as it would allow crews change employer without having to be demoted...........
Which is exactly why they don't do that as it would allow crews change employer without having to be demoted...........
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It wouldn't work in EASA-land anyways: I've changed the SOLI of my licence twice already because of moving countries and changing employers (due to request of the latter) and the date of issue was always the date when i received the new license.
ETOPS
So get your licence, spend 30 years in IT then rejoin for a bit of fun pre-retirement and slot in above those who have been actually flying for 25 years. I think giving someone benefits for no reason other than they’ve been alive longer is known as age discrimination...
So get your licence, spend 30 years in IT then rejoin for a bit of fun pre-retirement and slot in above those who have been actually flying for 25 years. I think giving someone benefits for no reason other than they’ve been alive longer is known as age discrimination...