seniority lists discussion..... Again!
THUNDERTAILED
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Is experience not roughly defined as total hours?
If Pilot A has more hours than Pilot B, he's more experienced, right?
This measure being adjustable for other helpful ratings such as TRI, TRE etc, and to an extent by command hours.
With the argument further up the thread regarding pilots being required to do identical jobs with identical performance in mind, and thus given that there are no variables, surely experience (and therefore seniority) can be mathematically calculated by formula?
Something like (thumbsuck here)
Experience = TT + (PIC/3) + (TRE*1000)
results of formula then defining where in new airline applicant fits in. If it's DEC above existing FO, then FO accepts DEC is more experienced. If it's FO below more experienced FO's, applicant accepts the existing FO's are more experienced.
If applied globally, would be a fair system.
If Pilot A has more hours than Pilot B, he's more experienced, right?
This measure being adjustable for other helpful ratings such as TRI, TRE etc, and to an extent by command hours.
With the argument further up the thread regarding pilots being required to do identical jobs with identical performance in mind, and thus given that there are no variables, surely experience (and therefore seniority) can be mathematically calculated by formula?
Something like (thumbsuck here)
Experience = TT + (PIC/3) + (TRE*1000)
results of formula then defining where in new airline applicant fits in. If it's DEC above existing FO, then FO accepts DEC is more experienced. If it's FO below more experienced FO's, applicant accepts the existing FO's are more experienced.
If applied globally, would be a fair system.
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AfricanSkies
BS! TT is mostly irrelevant. Flying long haul you do more hours then ever before but stick time? What stick time? Military hours / Cargo mostly fly much less hours but to black hole destinations in the middle of nowhere with non precision approaches to the minima. ILS2ILS 900 hours says nothing. Same as TRI/TRE experience. Anyone can do that at CAE if they want low pay.
Just accept one company uses seniority while the other don’t.
BS! TT is mostly irrelevant. Flying long haul you do more hours then ever before but stick time? What stick time? Military hours / Cargo mostly fly much less hours but to black hole destinations in the middle of nowhere with non precision approaches to the minima. ILS2ILS 900 hours says nothing. Same as TRI/TRE experience. Anyone can do that at CAE if they want low pay.
Just accept one company uses seniority while the other don’t.
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We're talking about airlines here, not military. Ace stick time isn't part of the requirement. Varied long haul time is valuable in gaining situational (geographic, ATC, terrain, alternate etc) awareness. By this stage, we should all be able to do a NPA.
More hours...more experienced..is the general rule
More hours...more experienced..is the general rule
More hours...more experienced..is the general rule
2) Not all experience is relevant to a particular operation.
Beyond about 3000-5000hrs, total experience is pretty irrelevant and the the following question is usually 'doing what?' The correct answer to that lies in the needs of that employer.
What is the big problem with company seniority that the anti camp think needs fixing after all this time?
Is it simply that you are prevented from job hopping, or are you genuinely of the opinion 'I bring more talent than an upgraded FO'?
Every company seniority system has its differences, but the one thing they typically always have in common is that they give eligible FOs a shot at command before hiring DECs, hence the angle of my question.
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Hi Lapon. Agreed about the type of experience. As this discussion concerns airlines, it's airline experience.
Valid points have been raised above. The ability to move airlines and not have to start at the bottom again has several advantages for pilots. Not only changing jobs for reasons such as geographic relocation but for better terms and conditions, which in turn forces the airlines to up their game in that regard.
Having key staff effectively stuck in an airline due to high seniority or simply by the prospect of losing a command if you change jobs is a HR managers dream.
HR also nowadays have more influence on Ops, and have determined that it's cheaper to hire DECs than it is to upgrade FOs.
If seniority was global, and derived from experience, the system would still serve its function, but by enabling free movement it would not hobble those it seeks to serve.
Valid points have been raised above. The ability to move airlines and not have to start at the bottom again has several advantages for pilots. Not only changing jobs for reasons such as geographic relocation but for better terms and conditions, which in turn forces the airlines to up their game in that regard.
Having key staff effectively stuck in an airline due to high seniority or simply by the prospect of losing a command if you change jobs is a HR managers dream.
HR also nowadays have more influence on Ops, and have determined that it's cheaper to hire DECs than it is to upgrade FOs.
If seniority was global, and derived from experience, the system would still serve its function, but by enabling free movement it would not hobble those it seeks to serve.
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Don't even contemplate going down that path of no seniority list. I spent 5 years with a reasonably large airline (100+ aircraft) without a seniority list and you have never experienced the unsightly in-fighting and backstabbing trying to get a promotion ahead of others. So much was put on who you knew, your friendship/relationship with them and how deep you were prepared to stab the knife into your possible rivals back.
The ability to move airlines and not have to start at the bottom again has several advantages for pilots
Seniority is a pilot initiative not an HR one.
If HR had thier way it would be yes men that get ahead, and the crusaders that have often fought for improvements to your conditions and causes would wither on the vine.
[QUOTE] HR also nowadays have more influence on Ops, and have determined that it's cheaper to hire DECs than it is to upgrade FOs [QUOTE]
Exaclty why seniority serves to protect those FOs that we once were ourselves.
Last edited by Lapon; 4th Apr 2020 at 00:30.
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the majority of airlines nowadays do not have seniority systems in place. So job hopping / moving for better T&C’s is already possible. So by your reasoning those airlines should have better t&c’s then the seniority based ones...
Depends on your definition of 'high wages', I prefer the term 'better T&Cs'. Of course there is always going to be an exception to the rule lying somewhere but in my part of the world it holds true.
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Several post here argue the rules used in a current seniority based airline and apply those same rules to a non seniority based airline.
You can't, you have to use real world jobs that have established systems without seniority.
Pick any job that has a designated senior person in a dual or more role job. I guess an easy example would be a surgeon.
Surgeons would move around freely yet it doesn't mean junior surgeons never become senior does it? They through experience become senior. Saying an FO would never become a captain is simply not true because of so called leap frogging.
Abandon rank, we aren't in the military, simply be named or designated senior pilot and pilot, it puts an end to chasing command. Perhaps a course or some means would be used to show the surgeon or pilot has reached a level to lead the operation or perhaps the offer is given to be acting senior pilot several times. The more experience you have the more times you will be designated senior pilot.
The new surgeon/pilot to the hospital/company probably has a bedding in period before being set free too, perhaps they must fly to certain destinations prior to being approved to be designated senior pilot etc
The rest of the world functions perfectly well without seniority it's just a different system with different rules and we would need different rules and systems. Pay being an obvious one but again look to the current world systems for solutions.
20+ years - seniority based airline but I'm still with Ernest K. Gann when it comes to seniority.
You can't, you have to use real world jobs that have established systems without seniority.
Pick any job that has a designated senior person in a dual or more role job. I guess an easy example would be a surgeon.
Surgeons would move around freely yet it doesn't mean junior surgeons never become senior does it? They through experience become senior. Saying an FO would never become a captain is simply not true because of so called leap frogging.
Abandon rank, we aren't in the military, simply be named or designated senior pilot and pilot, it puts an end to chasing command. Perhaps a course or some means would be used to show the surgeon or pilot has reached a level to lead the operation or perhaps the offer is given to be acting senior pilot several times. The more experience you have the more times you will be designated senior pilot.
The new surgeon/pilot to the hospital/company probably has a bedding in period before being set free too, perhaps they must fly to certain destinations prior to being approved to be designated senior pilot etc
The rest of the world functions perfectly well without seniority it's just a different system with different rules and we would need different rules and systems. Pay being an obvious one but again look to the current world systems for solutions.
20+ years - seniority based airline but I'm still with Ernest K. Gann when it comes to seniority.
Pay being an obvious one but again look to the current world systems for solutions.
I would speculate there are more transport category jet pilots than orthopedic surgeons for example.
There are more probably more accountants than pilots, but there are equally more accountancy firms than airlines.
If there was a transparent way to job hop then sure, but as non-seniorty appointments (TREs etc) prove, its wishful thinking that it will be entirely merit based.
Abandon rank, we aren't in the military, simply be named or designated senior pilot and pilot, it puts an end to chasing command
I dont doubt airlines would continue to operate perfectly fine without seniority, but what a pain in the a#$% it would be as a pilot trying to navigate your way to career-life balance as the invisible goal posts change (speaking from a non seniority experience).
Last edited by Lapon; 6th Apr 2020 at 05:49.
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Again. I really don’t see the purpose of the discussion. There are hundreds of companies that do not have a seniority system. You can apply there if you don’t fancy seniority.
besides that I think it is extremely selfish to, now that you experience a crisis, think you could jump the que whereas there are plenty of guys / girls (myself included) who have been made redundant before and accepted to start at the bottom again. We have a few Thomas Cook guys who just did that...
besides that I think it is extremely selfish to, now that you experience a crisis, think you could jump the que whereas there are plenty of guys / girls (myself included) who have been made redundant before and accepted to start at the bottom again. We have a few Thomas Cook guys who just did that...
You are completely correct in that there are plenty of non seniority companies for the anti camp to work in.
I suspect the seniority based ones are typically the more desirable too for reasons unique to each individual.
As SG says, it's rather selfish to suggest another system is flawed because you cannot join it without penatly, regardless of your reasons for wanting to do so.
I suspect the seniority based ones are typically the more desirable too for reasons unique to each individual.
As SG says, it's rather selfish to suggest another system is flawed because you cannot join it without penatly, regardless of your reasons for wanting to do so.
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Will you airline pilots be desperately trying to join a cargo airline or bizjet company now? Just to have a flying job or will you change careers? Interesting previous history on applications
