seniority lists discussion..... Again!

[macdo]

Originally Posted by clvf88

I'm undecided.

Genuine question though. Lets assume you're now aged 50, a senior TRE within your company, with a family etc to support. Your company has issues and folds. You are now probably going to spend most the rest of your career with the next seniority based carrier as an FO, potentially earning a third as much money. Is that still fair?

While that seems a logical assertion, after the demise of seniority listed Thomas Cook last year, the vast majority of Captains who got jobs went directly into airlines as Captains. TRE/I's had even less problems as they were mostly lined up with multiple offers within a few weeks. The only Captains that I know of who went right seat were to Emirates on a promise of accelerated command. While some elected not to stay in the UK and went for jobs in various countries as CM1. Covid19, of course, has thrown this all into the air and how this happy picture will look in a years time is anyone's guess.

[clvf88]

True. But what saved the day was that there we're non-seniority based airlines for them to slip into (I know TUI technically is - though the above is at odds with a strict seniority system).

It would appear the current state of play in the UK allows those in a seniority system to 'have their cake, and eat it'. A strict system thats benefits them, and in case it all falls apart lots of non-seniority based companies to pick up the pieces. I'm not necessarily saying thats a bad system. If everyone went strict seniority that would cause issues both with the aforementioned redundancy issue, but also with future Ts & Cs in the removal of ones ability to 'vote with their feet'.

Again, I'm not pushing an agenda and remain undecided - its a complicated debate. Just thinking out loud.

[SaulGoodman]

Could we use this moment in time to rethink if we as a pilot group should abandon seniority lists.

Yes you could! It would be completely pointless though...

[Jumbo2]

Best answer in this thread.

For the UK I would be highly surprised if in my flying career, and I still have a looong time to go, I see Virgin or British Airways abandoning their respective seniority systems.

[FlyingStone]

Originally Posted by macdo

While that seems a logical assertion, after the demise of seniority listed Thomas Cook last year, the vast majority of Captains who got jobs went directly into airlines as Captains. TRE/I's had even less problems as they were mostly lined up with multiple offers within a few weeks.
...
While some elected not to stay in the UK and went for jobs in various countries as CM1.

Now imagine every airline in the world ran a strict seniority system. For the captains who lost their job due to no fault of their own (bankruptcy), it would mean:

1. Back to the right seat.
2. With command times in many seniority-based airlines running at 15+ years, they would never see the left seat ever again.
3. Significant drop in salary for the remainder of their career.
4. Should their new airline get in trouble, they'd be laid off before a kid with 500 hrs despite they've probably got 15k hours (assuming LIFO).

And all this just because they weren't "smart" enough to predict the future economics of an airline they joined 30 years ago, and got laid off through absolutely no fault of their own.

Would that seem fair to you?

[Icanseeclearly]

Flying stone.

imagine the situation where an FO has been in a company for 5 years and is ready for command.

through no fault of his or her own a different company goes under. Your hypothetical Captain comes across and takes the command the FO has been waiting for.... it would mean

1. Remaining in the right hand seat
2. Maybe never getting command as they are leapfrogged by incoming captains.
3. Significant drop in salary because they have not been promoted
4 Should the airline go bust they lose their job before someone who has been in the company for 5 years less than them..

they have been disadvantaged through no fault of their own

does that seem fair to you?

[RexBanner]

Originally Posted by Jumbo2

For the UK I would be highly surprised if in my flying career, and I still have a looong time to go, I see Virgin or British Airways abandoning their respective seniority systems.

So let’s say if this gets really really bad and BA decided they needed to get rid of 50% of their pilots. You think they’re just going to chop the bottom 50% and be left with mostly a load of senior LH Captains and SFOs and then take the massive cost of retraining most of those pilots onto other fleets/seats? With all due respect, dream on.

[Jumbo2]

Flying stone.
With that same system:

A first officer 17 years in with his current Legacy airline with thousands of hours has got his command coming up.

A pilot who has only been flying for 4 years for a dodgy charter outfit which, after years of not making a profit, has finally gone bust. Luckily for him just before they go bust he manages to get his command.

The captain then joins the same Legacy airline and takes the command position which the first officer was promised.

The first officer has to wait another few years before a command comes up and has to hope the company can’t find any DEC and no other airline goes bust.

Would that seem fair to you?


Edited to say: I’ve seen more or less the above happen in other non seniority based airlines.

[Thumb War]

FlyingStone

From where do you get the expectation that life should be fair?

[clvf88]

The above mentioned merit of seniority is that its 'fair and transparent'. We are discussing seniority in this thread; and he is offering a counter-argument.

[2 Whites 2 Reds]

Originally Posted by cactusbusdrvr

Anyone who thinks getting rid of seniority is a good idea is not vey senior themselves.

Typical selfish reactions to not getting their way when they want it. Same people who want to pay someone for a job so they can avoid actually having to work hard to get a coveted position.

what a load of utter s***

[3RDi]

Time Traveller is correct in what he says.

There is a scoring system used by the board to determine who is selected. I’ve heard this directly from the horse’s mouth.

Seniority is just one part of it. Don’t think you will be picked over someone with lesser experience because you’ve been around for donkeys years. The areas you’re scored on is vast.

[cessnapete]

Would one of you anti seniority ladies or gentlemen please, tell me the “fair” and transparent criteria you would use to measure “merit” for promotion, leave, pay etc.
How would your criteria for example, measure where on their present list of pilots, you would slot in, if you move into a new company?

[clvf88]

You don't slot in anywhere as there is no 'list'. You join in the role you are offered and probably applied for (SO, FO, CPT etc). I'm sure you must have some awareness of how these things work in other non-seniority operators so I'm not going to waste time explaining.

Whether its fair or not is debatable (as is the idea of time in the company being the sole determinator of everything) - I'd lean towards the idea its fairer. Transparency is a real issue, however.

[Vessbot]

Originally Posted by dirk85

And out of curiosity how do you demonstrate merit as a pilot? Number of diversions? Fuel efficiency? Days off flown? On time performance?
See my point? Not a huge fan of seniority myself but I can see how "merit" can be measured from the management side and I am not sure I like it.

The sim grades your ILS, first out is the highest sum of the integrals of LOC GS and IAS deviations from FAF to DA

[Vessbot]

On the serious side, any system would be fair as long as it’s transparent and consistently applied and instituted from the beginning. Company seniority, national seniority, hell even worldwide seniority, what have you. Personally I’m a US pilot grown up in a ubiquitous company seniority culture, and that’s where my opinion currently lies. But I’m sympathetic to the arguments for a nationwide seniority system based on the doctor scenario, or the senior pilot whose airline went bankrupt and is starting over at year 1 scenario. I might be persuaded to a national seniority system to address those scenarios, but I’d have to do a lot more thinking if it was an actual possibility on the table instead of navel gazing.

However, given that company seniority already exists and pilots have already invested their lives into their company seniority under pre-agreed terms, someone moving into a position other than the bottom would severely violate that, for anyone junior to that position.

[MCDU2]

As someone who is sitting smack bang in the middle of a seniority list I think its just about perfect.

I think you should focus your efforts not on trying to throw your fellow pilots under the bus but ensuring that you are in a union and that you have agreements in place for rehire and that notional seniority is maintained whilst out in the wilderness so that you pick up where you left off as best as you can.

[there she blows]

Originally Posted by cessnapete

Would one of you anti seniority ladies or gentlemen please, tell me the “fair” and transparent criteria you would use to measure “merit” for promotion, leave, pay etc.
How would your criteria for example, measure where on their present list of pilots, you would slot in, if you move into a new company?

where would YOU, in the current climate ask the Coronavirus to SLOT IN,
im a thinking you are from the dinosaur group, top doggie, now de funked group.
The very top of the covid 19 list.
Pretty intimidating for now

[SaulGoodman]

I have been made redundant...
I had to start all over again...
I had to relocate...
I had to take the pay cut...
I have been in your shoes...
Then to join a seniority based airline I had to to most of the above again...
Life is 60 percent choice and 40 percent luck...

Life is not fair....

[747-8driver]

Originally Posted by clvf88

I'm undecided.

Genuine question though. Lets assume you're now aged 50, a senior TRE within your company, with a family etc to support. Your company has issues and folds. You are now probably going to spend most the rest of your career with the next seniority based carrier as an FO, potentially earning a third as much money. Is that still fair?

Would it be fair if this person would join another carrier as captain and while doing so "steal" money from f/o's whose upgrade will be delayed by these direct entry captains?