Totals 2019

[flyer4life]

Originally Posted by futz

Sorry about the confusion. I didn’t realize there was a senior FO position (SFO) and I can see how you’d think I was talking about San Fran, Calif (CA).

As far as the pay, I am pretty senior but that salary is based on $352/hour.

SFO-SIN pays 32 hrs plus 5 hrs of FAR117 extension pay. I do 2 of those and 1 other 3 or 4 day trip that pays around 25 for a total of 99 hours per month.

In the 6 vacation months, I only have to fly the 2 SIN trips.

They match 16% of our salary and put it in the retirement account (not taxed). Profit sharing is just under 8% this year and IS taxed.

You can make more money by dropping your awarded trips and picking up premium pay trips if they become available. They pay either 150, 175 or 200% depending on how desperate they are.

I’m doing my taxes now and in 2019 I made taxable income of 495k and will pay 121k federal tax. No state income tax in Nevada.

Thanks for clarifying. I still can’t get to your salary figure of $495k. Using your example months, I see an annual 1038hrs x $352 gives $365k.

I’m curious as I’ve been considering immigration (a close to impossible task) for some time now but wasn’t sure it would be worth the initial step backwards to regional jet and FO again. But I didn’t realise salaries in your range were achievable.

[Busdriver01]

Just saw that Delta will be sharing $1.6bn with its c.90,000 employees this year. They really know how to keep a workforce motivated, don’t they!

[hans brinker]

Originally Posted by flyer4life

Thanks for clarifying. I still can’t get to your salary figure of $495k. Using your example months, I see an annual 1038hrs x $352 gives $365k.

I’m curious as I’ve been considering immigration (a close to impossible task) for some time now but wasn’t sure it would be worth the initial step backwards to regional jet and FO again. But I didn’t realise salaries in your range were achievable.

If he gets 100hrs credit every month at $352, add 16% DC (pension plan) and add 8% PS:
1200 x 352 = $422.400
DC @ 16% = $67.584
PS @ 8% = $33.792
total $522K
That would require 30+ years at the company, because he is a senior WB captain at a legacy, but definitely possible, and that is without any premium flying (200%), last year DL was short in the A350 captain category, and a few made close to a million.
On the other hand, when Sully got his AMES rating he made $125/hr as an 18(?) rear captain at UsAir after the bankruptcy took more than half their pay and most of their pension, and many got furloughed for a decade.
The highs are high, the lows are low....

For another perspective, I am a captain at an ULCC, been there 6 years, work 15 days average (normal schedule), blocked about 800hrs, not much premium. Including company pension contribution I made $270K.

[flyer4life]

Originally Posted by hans brinker

If he gets 100hrs credit every month at $352, add 16% DC (pension plan) and add 8% PS:
1200 x 352 = $422.400
DC @ 16% = $67.584
PS @ 8% = $33.792
total $522K
That would require 30+ years at the company, because he is a senior WB captain at a legacy, but definitely possible, and that is without any premium flying (200%), last year DL was short in the A350 captain category, and a few made close to a million.
On the other hand, when Sully got his AMES rating he made $125/hr as an 18(?) rear captain at UsAir after the bankruptcy took more than half their pay and most of their pension, and many got furloughed for a decade.
The highs are high, the lows are low....

For another perspective, I am a captain at an ULCC, been there 6 years, work 15 days average (normal schedule), blocked about 800hrs, not much premium. Including company pension contribution I made $270K.

Thanks for that, got it now. Didn’t realise the vacation months would still get 100hrs credit.

A UK easyJet captain of six years service like yourself would be grossing around £135000 plus a measly 7% company pension. Estimate an overall 38% tax rate. Different world eh!

[FlightDetent]

Originally Posted by CW247

Supply Vs Demand and cadet labour are all valid arguments, but increasingly our poor situation in Europe in the face of increasing living costs is due to freedom of movement in Europe.

Wet lease/charter operators like Smartlynx, Avion, Enter Air, TravelService and previously Small Planet (combined 100 aircraft) pay a fixed circa €90k (that's Euros) or GBP75k for captains. They simply wouldn't be able to crew their flights out of UK, Germany and Scandinavia (where they do 90% of their business) if it wasn't for the thousands of Eastern European pilots from Bulgaria, Serbia, Romania, Latvia, Lithuania and Poland who take up those jobs. Those guys pay next to no tax and have their hotel accommodation is paid for wherever they operate in Europe. When they return home for their blocks off they usually retreat to a mansion in the countryside. The Western European pilots usually already live close to their bases so don't get an accommodation allowance and pay about 35% tax on the €90k / £75k. It's not a level playing field.

I don't see this changing after Brexit, if anything the CAA will give these operators the green light to continue operating as it would be seen as a Business to Business agreement between the tour operators or the airlines sub chartering work. We are a completely divided and de-unionised workforce thanks to Big Europe.

While probably the most level headed post about cross-border pilots on the site, still widely off mark TBH. It is quite sad to see how little understanding there is of what you guys are up against. Not judging or claiming anything, just pointing out the information deficit. Not that a thorough understanding would change the downslope.


FWIW, in the above pool (2018 figures - paperwork all done, all boxes ticked at the revenue office): 76k € net, on a 14/5 commuting contract with plenty of time the company did not take outside the peak months. LHS A320, 3 months LTC assignment included. Ended up with 350 block hours, total at-home days 205 plus 15 off somewhere downroute, nice places.

t took me quite long to become that schedule-smart and contract savvy to get it, mid-May resignation and re-entry on better terms included. Truth be told that is the maximum in this job market. Crew food and 45 EUR/m phone allowance, not a penny more. .

Comparison for 2020: Smartwings B737 PIC offer stands at 13500 EUR gross (self-employed) on 18/12 contract, 6 months term. A fair expectation is 400 fh at 53k € NET based on yearly total 120 duty / 240 home, assuming staying put and doing completely nothing for the rest of the year. Which puts Racetobottom's 52k for a full year of the pink jive into a very ugly perspective.

I'd be happy to see the Volotea, Laudamotion, Eurowings A330 (!), Vueling, Titan or AirPost numbers.

[USERNAME_]

Originally Posted by FlightDetent

I'd be happy to see the Volotea, Laudamotion, Eurowings A330 (!), Vueling, Titan or AirPost numbers.

Titan was posted above, Post 93.

[Tay Cough]

Originally Posted by stable_checked

How does an EASA captain with A320 rating get a job in the USA?

Marry an American.

[futz]

Originally Posted by flyer4life

Thanks for that, got it now. Didn’t realise the vacation months would still get 100hrs credit.

A UK easyJet captain of six years service like yourself would be grossing around £135000 plus a measly 7% company pension. Estimate an overall 38% tax rate. Different world eh!

One other thing I forgot to mention is that $352 is the book rate but we get an additional $6.50/hour for international flying (which is all I do). So it's really $358/hour for the flying hours. (The extra $6.50 doesn't apply to FAR 117 extension pay, or vacation pay.)

The example I gave was $425,000 in salary but that didn't include any premium pay. The 2019 taxable income of $495,000 I mentioned did include some premium trips (and last year's profit sharing).

It's damn good money WHILE it lasts. UAL has 12 flights per day from the US to China and they just announced they're cancelling 8 of the 12 daily flights for February and beyond until they get the virus under control. The whole thing could tank in a matter of months if this escalates.

[macdo]

Originally Posted by futz

One other thing I forgot to mention is that $352 is the book rate but we get an additional $6.50/hour for international flying (which is all I do). So it's really $358/hour for the flying hours. (The extra $6.50 doesn't apply to FAR 117 extension pay, or vacation pay.)

The example I gave was $425,000 in salary but that didn't include any premium pay. The 2019 taxable income of $495,000 I mentioned did include some premium trips (and last year's profit sharing).

It's damn good money WHILE it lasts. UAL has 12 flights per day from the US to China and they just announced they're cancelling 8 of the 12 daily flights for February and beyond until they get the virus under control. The whole thing could tank in a matter of months if this escalates.

The thing is, if you are earning nearly 1/2 mil a year, you are, I hope, saving a lot for the inevitable rainy day. In Europe we still get rainy days fairly often and unless you are in the minority of very well paid European pilots, the rainy days are going to be a lot less pleasant. The fella a few posts above at Wizz is a case in point. I have watched with horror my former Thomas Cook colleagues whooping with delight at getting these jobs where they will be earning 1/2 or 2/3 what they were on before. The few winners appear to be those prepared to leave Europe altogether. As CW247 neatly set out, in my career, now ended, we have sold ourselves up the river and when we weren't doing it ourselves, we had our own lazy government and the ideological European Union doing it for us.

[CR9]

United 757/767 First Officer mix of domestic transcon's and Europe flying.
6 months on year 2 pay and 6 months on year 3.
633 hrs, average 16 days off a month and spent about 5 months on reserve (about half of the reserve days were 12 hr call out).
$172,300 flight pay and per diem plus $26,300 to pension. Total salary for 2019 $198,600. (also getting $12,300 profit sharing that I didn't include since its paid out next month).

The discrepancy in hours flown vs hourly pay that many of you see in the US salaries is because we have a lot of pay "rigs" that come into play triggering soft time. Sick and vacation payouts also factor in as well. Did 7 years at EK before UAL and wish I would have made the jump back stateside sooner.

[NoelEvans]

Originally Posted by Johnny F@rt Pants

It doesn’t matter whether it provides a decent living or not, it’s about reward for responsibility and for your expertise.

I wonder how Flybe pilots are now feeling about how their "responsibility" and "expertise" is being rewarded.

When the money dries up your 'expertise' is worth nowt. As zero / zero pointed out, it's market forces dear boy, market forces.

(And good luck to those ex-Flybe pilots, many of whom have carried me comfortably from here to there over the past few years, in getting back into the air again as soon as possible.)

[Black Pudding]

Originally Posted by NoelEvans

I wonder how Flybe pilots are now feeling about how their "responsibility" and "expertise" is being rewarded.



(And good luck to those ex-Flybe pilots, many of whom have carried me comfortably from here to there over the past few years, in getting back into the air again as soon as possible.)

Do you think it was because the flight crews were overpaid that caused the collapse of FlyBe. Do you think if they took a 20% paycut they would of survived and prospered.

[NoelEvans]

Originally Posted by Black Pudding

Do you think it was because the flight crews were overpaid that caused the collapse of FlyBe. Do you think if they took a 20% paycut they would of survived and prospered.

I never said that being 'overpaid' (or 'underpaid') caused or causes anything. I simply said that you get paid what can be afforded, It has nothing to do with grandiose ideas like "about [being] reward for responsibility and for your expertise.". If the income from the customers isn't enough then that limits what you can be "rewarded". Comparisons with "XYZ pays such-and-such" are irrelevant.

Be very careful about being snooty about 'how little' someone else might be paid. Some of those "not-so-well paid" jobs right now are probably by far the most secure -- not because of the levels of pay but rather the particular sectors of the industry. And maybe those are sectors of the industry that many have been rather snooty about. Those with the 'last laugh' (it's not nice to laugh at others' misery, so that is not intended as such, it is just making use of a well known and used English term) for job security right now are most likely those that many, many others have been rather snooty about.

[RexBanner]

Totals 2020 should be interesting. Probably still more than Totals 2021 though

[VariablePitchP]

Originally Posted by AIMINGHIGH123

Adding to the topic
2019
Airline: Flybe SFO 4 years in
Type: Dash 8
Hours Flown: 780
Salary: £52000 with everything (2020 salary looking like £0
Roster: variable. Summer 8 days off a month winter bit more. 4 sector days.

Love the job but aviation is such a rollercoaster. If you want money just go into banking. 10 years in even as an MD your basic would be about £500k plus about the same in bonus the hours are very long though.

Really sorry to hear about your job with Flybe, I think all we can hope for is that your 4 years means you’re a shoe in somewhere when this starts to recover (it has to!)

Wouldn’t advise going into banking if you think you’ll be making 500k after 10 years. Maybe 1 in 10,000 do. In all likelihood you’ll be making 60-70k a year if you’re lucky, doing 60 hours a week starting at spreadsheets and wanting to jump out the office window. Ask most pilots after 20 years if they want to keep flying they’ll say yes, ask most bankers (the 99.9% who don’t have their name on the door) if they want to keep banking and they’ll look at you like you’ve got 2 heads... You’ve made the better career choice!

[Smooth Airperator]

Plus, if you pull your checks apart using two fingers either side of your mouth and try to say pilot, it still sounds like "pilot"

[clvf88]

Originally Posted by VariablePitchP

Really sorry to hear about your job with Flybe, I think all we can hope for is that your 4 years means you’re a shoe in somewhere when this starts to recover (it has to!)

Wouldn’t advise going into banking if you think you’ll be making 500k after 10 years. Maybe 1 in 10,000 do. In all likelihood you’ll be making 60-70k a year if you’re lucky, doing 60 hours a week starting at spreadsheets and wanting to jump out the office window. Ask most pilots after 20 years if they want to keep flying they’ll say yes, ask most bankers (the 99.9% who don’t have their name on the door) if they want to keep banking and they’ll look at you like you’ve got 2 heads... You’ve made the better career choice!

Spot on

[bombaydude]

I've heard about fantastic pay for pilots in the US , and seen pretty impressive figures here.
I have the impression from speaking to pilots over the years working for major US companies that you get an hourly rate. Quite a few years ago some Continental pilots quoted pay of $185 a flight hour, at the time this was pretty good money..... so long as you do the hours.
So what happens at a time like now?
Genuinely curious.

[dirk85]

In normal circumstances they all have guaranteed flight hours per their contract, in the region of 70 per month, so they make very good money regardless of the amount of flying.
Some companies agreed with the unions a reduced minimum guaranteed in this time of crisis, obviously.

[Check Airman]

Originally Posted by bombaydude

I've heard about fantastic pay for pilots in the US , and seen pretty impressive figures here.
I have the impression from speaking to pilots over the years working for major US companies that you get an hourly rate. Quite a few years ago some Continental pilots quoted pay of $185 a flight hour, at the time this was pretty good money..... so long as you do the hours.
So what happens at a time like now?
Genuinely curious.

Here in the US, the pay rates have not changed. Companies have come up with ways to reduce payroll cost, though. Early retirement packages, unpaid leaves and leaves paid at reduced monthly guarantees. All these are voluntary, for now.