Go Back  PPRuNe Forums > Flight Deck Forums > Terms and Endearment
Reload this Page >

Euro market pilot saturation

Terms and Endearment The forum the bean counters hoped would never happen. Your news on pay, rostering, allowances, extras and negotiations where you work - scheduled, charter or contract.

Euro market pilot saturation

Old 7th Jan 2020, 11:49
  #141 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Somewhere over the rainbow
Posts: 938
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Agree with you Sheikmyarse.
Let’s face it. Most of the fatal accidents in the last 15 years, the lack of hand flying skills was definitely a big factor.
But amazingly some airlines still forbid their pilots to hand fly in line and that’s totally legal. Unbelievable. Smh
pineteam is offline  
Old 7th Jan 2020, 13:38
  #142 (permalink)  

Only half a speed-brake
 
Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: Not commuting home
Age: 45
Posts: 4,260
Received 3 Likes on 3 Posts
Originally Posted by pineteam
Most of the fatal accidents in the last 15 years, the lack of hand flying skills was definitely a big factor.
Right on the target, but a wrong one. How many of those were caused by P2F cadets? I do not dispute the rusty skills analysis.

The reason every thread gets polluted with this resentment headache is people looking for scapegoats, and then legions rush to join sing along.

Inconvenient truths:
- on a path 0-2500 hrs medium jet, the self-sponsored (P2F) line-training packages cost just over a half of typical high-class CTC / CAE Oxford integrated courses. Pay and expenses included.
- money is necessary to get you a seat, but will not pass the exams for you. Could the ATO turn a blind eye, or avoid a specific exercise for the check? Possibly so, but after passing that you ain't seen even a shadow of a crew-shuttle bus (more below)
- the rich kids, as a group, do better. Any walk of life, and that also for objective reasons. Agonizing over it did not improve anyone's self ever.

----

Somebody upthread commented on having multiple horrendous experiences with fresh F/Os. While my personal account is nowhere near that heartbreaking at all, I need to respect that fellow pilot's opinion.

There was a simple 3-stage exercise to pass before concluding the training phase, to be admitted for the final SIM check on my first type rating. Organized and neat performance was the requirement.
a) ILS raw data (no AP / no FD / no ATHR / no MAP mode) down through CAT II minima
b) EFATO at V1 (handflown to landing)
c) PIC incap at VR.
only then you're ready for the check. And we had been trained hard for it.

If someone finds himself next to a colleague who is not sufficiently competent (unable to land back in marginal WX single-pilot, e.g.) the system must had failed them both:

Ground Zero: not reported for performance review by line captains
level Z-1: passed line-check
level Z-2: passed release from the "with safety pilot" phase
level Z-3: passed the OCC SIM check
level Z-4: passed the type rating Licence Proficiency Check.

There are deeper levels, but irrelevant. One can only clean the near side of the street. Funny and unsettling at the same time, those 5 above have something in common, organizationally. That is the elephant in the room nobody dares to mention. While at the same time the FAA to Boeing delegation fiasco still gets at least 5 fresh comments a day here.

---

I see these loose thoughts are irrelevant to the topic of the thread, apologies for joining the band.



FlightDetent is offline  
Old 8th Jan 2020, 10:31
  #143 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: camelshitcity
Posts: 0
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Originally Posted by FlightDetent
Right on the target, but a wrong one. How many of those were caused by P2F cadets? I do not dispute the rusty skills analysis.

The reason every thread gets polluted with this resentment headache is people looking for scapegoats, and then legions rush to join sing along.

Inconvenient truths:
- on a path 0-2500 hrs medium jet, the self-sponsored (P2F) line-training packages cost just over a half of typical high-class CTC / CAE Oxford integrated courses. Pay and expenses included.
- money is necessary to get you a seat, but will not pass the exams for you. Could the ATO turn a blind eye, or avoid a specific exercise for the check? Possibly so, but after passing that you ain't seen even a shadow of a crew-shuttle bus (more below)
- the rich kids, as a group, do better. Any walk of life, and that also for objective reasons. Agonizing over it did not improve anyone's self ever.

----

Somebody upthread commented on having multiple horrendous experiences with fresh F/Os. While my personal account is nowhere near that heartbreaking at all, I need to respect that fellow pilot's opinion.

There was a simple 3-stage exercise to pass before concluding the training phase, to be admitted for the final SIM check on my first type rating. Organized and neat performance was the requirement.
a) ILS raw data (no AP / no FD / no ATHR / no MAP mode) down through CAT II minima
b) EFATO at V1 (handflown to landing)
c) PIC incap at VR.
only then you're ready for the check. And we had been trained hard for it.

If someone finds himself next to a colleague who is not sufficiently competent (unable to land back in marginal WX single-pilot, e.g.) the system must had failed them both:

Ground Zero: not reported for performance review by line captains
level Z-1: passed line-check
level Z-2: passed release from the "with safety pilot" phase
level Z-3: passed the OCC SIM check
level Z-4: passed the type rating Licence Proficiency Check.

There are deeper levels, but irrelevant. One can only clean the near side of the street. Funny and unsettling at the same time, those 5 above have something in common, organizationally. That is the elephant in the room nobody dares to mention. While at the same time the FAA to Boeing delegation fiasco still gets at least 5 fresh comments a day here.

---

I see these loose thoughts are irrelevant to the topic of the thread, apologies for joining the band.
The rich kids as group do better? I don't think so..they can pay their way into a corrupt system. And that is what it is. A friend of mine told me of a certain Easter EU carrier ..that allows people that should not be let even close to an aircraft to fly. He told me of the lack of skill and coordination and extreme lack of knowledge of basic ATPL concepts and even more of aircraft systems by many P2F imbeciles paying their seat to became poorly paid passengers filling paperwork unable to land the plane..imagine to manage a captain incapacitation in marginal weather..... So sorry to disagree..but something is very wrong and sooner or later it will surface ...from smoke and flames unfortunately.
sheikmyarse is offline  
Old 8th Jan 2020, 14:18
  #144 (permalink)  

Only half a speed-brake
 
Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: Not commuting home
Age: 45
Posts: 4,260
Received 3 Likes on 3 Posts
The rich kids do better is a concept beyond aviation. Sociological finding, that as a group people with golden spoons achieve "measurable" (ehm) higher goals in life than people born with no spoons at all. Success breed success, it's the upbringing and resources their families can provide, role models and responsibility patterns they learn early in life.

I respect you may not think so, and acknowledge your friend tells you stories of somewhere. I've seen otherwise living and working over there. Upon closer inspection, the P2F is a strawman. It exists but has nowhere near the attributes the scaremongers shout of.

The best 4 out of 15 industry freshmen (no matter the road to flight-deck) would have 3 well-off-ish and 1 natural talent. In a strange fate of twist now and then you realize that from the rich families (hotels, construction companies, people who own their private aeroplanes) it is the dumb apple sent to be a pilot. And still floats comfortably above average in his class.

Most of the P2F are highly respectable self-achievers who had the lucidity to weigh their options realistically and then did something about it. Not that many rich kids there actually, those would get a loan with collateral from their parents and a) do CAE Oxford b) /more likely/ chose a different vocation. Because rich does not equal stupid. Quite on the contrary, if you look with the statistical glasses on.



FlightDetent is offline  
Old 8th Jan 2020, 17:12
  #145 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: camelshitcity
Posts: 0
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
None of the few good pilot I have flown with come from rich families. Most of the incredible number of those who should do something else in life do.
Your theory is nonsense and you just seem to defend a system you have personal interest with idiotic theories on the superiority of the rich Are you the Donald Trump of aviation.?
sheikmyarse is offline  
Old 8th Jan 2020, 17:17
  #146 (permalink)  

Only half a speed-brake
 
Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: Not commuting home
Age: 45
Posts: 4,260
Received 3 Likes on 3 Posts
Originally Posted by sheikmyarse
Your theory is nonsense and you just seem to defend a system you have personal interest with idiotic theories on the superiority of the rich Are you the Donald Trump of aviation.?
Come again?
FlightDetent is offline  
Old 8th Jan 2020, 19:05
  #147 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2018
Location: England
Posts: 24
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Originally Posted by FlightDetent
Come again?
He said your theory is nonsense, which it is. You talk a lot but you havenít said anything.
Mansnothot is offline  
Old 8th Jan 2020, 20:04
  #148 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2013
Location: 60 north
Age: 59
Posts: 17
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Plenty of Licences issued in Europe.

But the standard has falling DRAMATICALLY.

When did a fellow Captain last tell you:
" Dude, these young fellas are super duper good, one better then the other.!!"
Never ever heard that!
On the other hand I often get the feedback from other Captains that they are tired of incompetent and arrogant FOs.
I sure am!

It did not used to be this way 15 to 20 years ago.

Is this proof?
No, it is subjective, but we are end users of the New Aviation Training Industry, and we are qualified to judge.
It has simply failed!

Helmet On
Taking cover.
Cpt B


BluSdUp is offline  
Old 8th Jan 2020, 20:06
  #149 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Sep 2019
Location: Mexico City
Posts: 677
Likes: 0
Received 7 Likes on 3 Posts
Parts of the statement are true. People from better off backgrounds to tend have higher standards of living compared to people from lower socio economic backgrounds. Access to education and finance etc. That is a fact.

As for P2F I have seen a mixed bag. Some were good, most sat around average and a few terrible ones. I know of people rejected by P2F airlines for being really bad pilots. Nearly all the P2F people I met did it simply because their home countries airline required political or family connections to get hired.

Most pay to flyers were not rich kids by any means. I know a few rich kids. They would never be pilots.
Climb150 is online now  
Old 9th Jan 2020, 05:42
  #150 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: camelshitcity
Posts: 0
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Originally Posted by BluSdUp
But the standard has falling DRAMATICALLY.

When did a fellow Captain last tell you:
" Dude, these young fellas are super duper good, one better then the other.!!"
Never ever heard that!
On the other hand I often get the feedback from other Captains that they are tired of incompetent and arrogant FOs.
I sure am!

It did not used to be this way 15 to 20 years ago.

Is this proof?
No, it is subjective, but we are end users of the New Aviation Training Industry, and we are qualified to judge.
It has simply failed!

Helmet On
Taking cover.
Cpt B
Very very spot on!!!!
Now..what can we do about it?
sheikmyarse is offline  
Old 10th Jan 2020, 14:35
  #151 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Munich, DE
Age: 52
Posts: 19
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Originally Posted by 4runner


yes....thereís some bandaid augmentation system, but itís still a handful. Especially during a go around. Iím not the ace of the base, but a 737 does have some serious pitch up tendencies when you rapidly apply thrust while hand flying.
The CFM56s are angled upwards to help get Baby Huey off the ground http://www.b737.org.uk/powerplant.htm
That will get you a good pitch change with power, apart from the fact that the 737 redefined "short-coupled" since the -100. The poor thing has been mutated from a decent cut-down 707 with 727 engines to a kludge thrown together by "clowns supervised by monkeys", as a Boeing pilot put it. Ask anyone who flew 732s which one handles like a real airplane, and which one like a drunk hog. Same thing happened with the MD-11, and it's well known that Boeing's engineering went straight to hell after the merger with MDD.
averdung is offline  
Old 11th Jan 2020, 07:42
  #152 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Third planet from the sun
Posts: 31
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Originally Posted by BluSdUp
But the standard has falling DRAMATICALLY.

When did a fellow Captain last tell you:
" Dude, these young fellas are super duper good, one better then the other.!!"
Never ever heard that!
On the other hand I often get the feedback from other Captains that they are tired of incompetent and arrogant FOs.
I sure am!

It did not used to be this way 15 to 20 years ago.

Is this proof?
No, it is subjective, but we are end users of the New Aviation Training Industry, and we are qualified to judge.
It has simply failed!

Helmet On
Taking cover.
Cpt B
Then your HR department (and whoever is involved) should re-think their whole selection process!
TheBat is offline  
Old 14th Jan 2020, 16:27
  #153 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: New York
Posts: 222
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Originally Posted by calypso
While I agree that experience is not the only metric

Every "good" pilot gets better with experience
Every "Bad" pilot gets a little less bad with experience


On top of that It is always better to scare yourself shitless on your own in a little Cessna and swear to never do that again than to do the same as a captain in a 737.

There are capts in Europe that have never diverted, never done a GA, never have had to use the QRH in flight. They are flying with guys that are trailing twelve miles behind the tail. The only reason nothing happens is because these are extremely reliable machines
while I certainly agree experience generally makes a better pilot Ďbetterí I donít agree with the opposite.
A bad pilot may be statistically more likely to fail with more opportunity to screw up!
neilki is offline  
Old 15th Jan 2020, 13:14
  #154 (permalink)  
Aso
 
Join Date: Jul 2018
Location: Belgium
Posts: 57
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
But the standard has falling DRAMATICALLY.
Well there is two answers:
  1. No quality has not fallen dramatically
  2. There is a shortage of pilots trained at that means airlines are now hiring people that were 5 years ago were not even considered
So as a summary: there is a shortage of well qualified candidates and the well qualified candidates are picked up almost immediately...


Aso is offline  
Old 16th Jan 2020, 12:54
  #155 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2014
Location: In a house
Posts: 110
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Snoop

Originally Posted by Aso
Well there is two answers:
  1. No quality has not fallen dramatically
  2. There is a shortage of pilots trained at that means airlines are now hiring people that were 5 years ago were not even considered
So as a summary: there is a shortage of well qualified candidates and the well qualified candidates are picked up almost immediately...
Depends who you work for and which candidates are applying! I agree that the quality of the top candidates is still the same however there are a lot more candidates who should not be allowed anywhere near a plane. Once the top candidates are taken there are plenty of airlines mainly towards eastern Europe, Asia etc who seem to hire these people who really don't have any idea about flying or the motor skills to safely fly an aircraft.

There is definitely a problem with communication in my opinion. I was line training a new first officer recently who seemed to be completely lost. The problems continued with other training captains over several flights with no improvements so some inquiries were made. It turns out that this person had problems all the way through flight school and all the way through the type rating but somehow managed to pass the important tests even though there was an underlying problem. This person should have been stopped at a much earlier stage and not allowed through the system. Its easy to talk about Swiss cheese models for aviation accidents but what about maybe the flight schools using the same model to catch students who are not up to the task.

It is quite scary to think that the same person was asked to leave and has recently gone and joined another airline in the central / eastern part of Europe
flyingmed is offline  
Old 16th Jan 2020, 15:20
  #156 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Dec 2019
Location: Orbit
Posts: 49
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Originally Posted by flyingmed
Depends who you work for and which candidates are applying! I agree that the quality of the top candidates is still the same however there are a lot more candidates who should not be allowed anywhere near a plane. Once the top candidates are taken there are plenty of airlines mainly towards eastern Europe, Asia etc who seem to hire these people who really don't have any idea about flying or the motor skills to safely fly an aircraft.

There is definitely a problem with communication in my opinion. I was line training a new first officer recently who seemed to be completely lost. The problems continued with other training captains over several flights with no improvements so some inquiries were made. It turns out that this person had problems all the way through flight school and all the way through the type rating but somehow managed to pass the important tests even though there was an underlying problem. This person should have been stopped at a much earlier stage and not allowed through the system. Its easy to talk about Swiss cheese models for aviation accidents but what about maybe the flight schools using the same model to catch students who are not up to the task.

It is quite scary to think that the same person was asked to leave and has recently gone and joined another airline in the central / eastern part of Europe
I quote you 100% I have seen plenty of people that should not be flying. They are a liability and the product of the " training business" that as long as they pay...let everybody go through. Very scary.
Yury Gagarin is offline  
Old 16th Jan 2020, 20:21
  #157 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: hang on let me check
Posts: 650
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Guys, what is there to say. People are queing left and right to join airlines which about 15/20 years ago would have been avoided like the plague by any half decent pilot.
The conditions are shocking. And people make careers there, with whatever justification.
And all I see are Instagram pictures of kids smiling in the flight deck. This is what itís come to, in Europe especially. It is what it is.
bringbackthe80s is offline  
Old 17th Jan 2020, 06:56
  #158 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Sep 2019
Location: Transient
Posts: 9
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
I have found that the "standard" has slipped over the last 20 or so years. Newer system operators have a good but academic grasp of SOP. However they are poor below 200 ft. Ground shy. Overcontrolling. No feel.

Thus the system operator jibe. I would say the vast majority are not stick and rudder pilots as they have never had to be.


Last edited by Douglas Bahada; 17th Jan 2020 at 07:32.
Douglas Bahada is offline  
Old 17th Jan 2020, 12:52
  #159 (permalink)  
Aso
 
Join Date: Jul 2018
Location: Belgium
Posts: 57
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
I quote you 100% I have seen plenty of people that should not be flying. They are a liability and the product of the " training business" that as long as they pay...let everybody go through. Very scary.
And I agree with THAT statement In the past those people were never allowed to fly and they are generally the ones complaining on Pprune and blame the market, the operators etc since they have a LICENCE and hence deserve a job. What they miss is the standard required. Now in the current market some of them have been able to go to the Enter air and the likes and bought a job... (most fun one: guy was not hired by us as he was cr@p but ended up with a Polish ACMI operator we used for summer lift flying our customers after all )

So I might not be making friends: at the moment there is a shortage of well qualified candidates... And if you are not hired in the current market go and get some honest feedback of why you are not hired and do not blame the market....
Aso is offline  
Old 17th Jan 2020, 14:08
  #160 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Sep 2018
Location: Melrose
Posts: 50
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Euro market pilot saturation

My wife and I have given up flying, not because we think we could get killed by dodgy pilots (see above), but because we cannot stand the hassle on the ground in the airport. However as a pilot with 1000+ hrs of gliding - 2200 sorties, Silver C,and an instructor rating, I think I can see the drift of the this thread. There are people flying big aeroplanes full of people who should not be doing this. Every one of my 1000 hrs was 'hands on stick', and as I was soon teaching flying to the great British public, who could just turn up at the club, join, and expect to be taught to fly, I had some 'interesting' pupils to say the least. However, in my undergraduate days I had applied to join Glasgow University Air Squadron - I didn't get in - too many applicants that year, but I did have the full RAF medical, aptitude (in a Link trainer), and attitude tests, which took all day in the nearest military hospital. Why do the airlines not do this? The captain of my school (captain of rugger/cricket/golf etc) was in the same group as me, and he failed the eyesight test - slightly green/red colour blind! I was determined to learn to fly, and still hoped to do that in the RAF during my National Service (giving my age away here), but on graduation as a mechanical engineer I was hired by Rolls-Royce and trained as a jet engine designer (Conway and RB108) and thus became permanently exempt. I took up gliding and I have never felt any inclination to fly powered aircraft.
Olympia463 is offline  

Thread Tools
Search this Thread

Contact Us - Archive - Advertising - Cookie Policy - Privacy Statement - Terms of Service - Do Not Sell or Share My Personal Information

Copyright © 2023 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Use of this site indicates your consent to the Terms of Use.