Seniority

[Stocious]

where most of the trainers were ex Lightnings

For all its faults and foibles, give me a seniority system over this sort of setup every day of the week!

[The Blu Riband]

Originally Posted by midnight cruiser

most of the trainers were ex Lightnings, out of the blue they would grab Bloggs, telling him,"you're ready get in the sim", about 3 in six pass the assessment, and about 3/4 pass the course.

It doesn’t sound like a very professional or equitable method of selection to me!
Especialliy when you then state that only about 30% of those chosen (so randomly) actually pass the course!

[172_driver]

But upgrade to command is something of a side issue - it's main iniquity is the way seniority distorts free movement of labour between companies, favouring those who have stayed at just one company over those who have had to change companies, and for no better reason than that.

Negative! You are free to apply and join any seniority list you like, if that suits your lifestyle. But expect to join at the bottom. There are many of us that have waited for our time for a command slot, long haul, part time, whatever seniority is used for... If you can't take the salary cut or demotion that's a burden you have to carry. Choose your career path wisely.I admit, some fall short on luck for whatever reason, life circumstances, timing in the pilot market, bankruptcies. Still, it would be grossly unfair to undercut those who've waited their time. In my outfit there are 20+ year FO's.

[TACHO]

Originally Posted by 172_driver

In my outfit there are 20+ year FO's.

Sounds like a great system.

[172_driver]

Originally Posted by TACHO

Sounds like a great system.

Sounds like a place where people want to work.

[C195]

Originally Posted by 172_driver

Sounds like a place where people want to work.

SAS is the only real option for a stable jet job in Sweden. A long period in the right seat may be a price worth paying for a stable home base. That said, the time to command should reduce at SAS due to retirements in the coming years.

[flyer4life]

Originally Posted by hans brinker

Or: Lowest diversion levels, lowest fuel burns (by departing min fuel), lowest level of cancellations due to MX write ups or fatigue calls, it is a VERY big can of worms you open. Seniority is the worst system, except for all the others (W. Churchill)

Scaremongering. None of this happens at my non-seniority airline and any plans to introduce such nonsense could be easily stopped by a united workforce and a decent union. Also, such an airline would become a crap place to work and, with true free movement of labour, would struggle to maintain staff levels.

Originally Posted by 172_driver

There are many of us that have waited for our time for a command slot, long haul, part time, whatever seniority is used for... If you can't take the salary cut or demotion that's a burden you have to carry. Choose your career path wisely.I admit, some fall short on luck for whatever reason, life circumstances, timing in the pilot market, bankruptcies. Still, it would be grossly unfair to undercut those who've waited their time. In my outfit there are 20+ year FO's.

But it’s OK for the gross unfairness of pilots spending 15+ years on a seniority list and having to start again at the bottom because their company went bust? Our companies are run by senior executives who have fundamentally different (and shorter term) incentives to those of pilots on long seniority lists. The executives don’t have to worry about starting at the bottom if it all goes wrong.

It would be interesting to see the true numbers, but considering more companies have folded over time than exist now, it’s a reasonable assumption to say seniority has screwed more of us than it has benefitted.

The future is so unpredictable with many, many unknowns. Trying to plan around a 20 year wait in the queue at one company seems more like an exercise in one’s luck than “choosing wisely”.

[TinFoilhat2]

Originally Posted by The Blu Riband

Or
it means pilots undercutting each other, getting sacked for minor infractions because management know there's always a pilot willing to work for less. It means pilots would feel obliged to compete in fuel league tables and working more for less reward to jump the queue to avoid losing their jobs, or to to get ahead in the race for promotion.
eg BA requires P1s for the A350 so they go to the market and get the cheapest captains willing to work outside of Bidline rules. The 744 is now overcrewed so they get laid off despite many having been with the company for 10 years.
eg BA starts a new route to an exotic location but are only willing to offer a 1 star hotel and no allowances. Junior guys sacrifice pay and standards in the quest for time on a beach.

How do you determine this "merit" based system? Sim scores, overtime rates, departure times, lowest sickness levels, pilots willing to become trainers for no extra comp?

Never hear such rubbish in my life, just like remainers with their 'Off a cliff edge' project fear 3.0 nonsense!!

[172_driver]

But it’s OK for the gross unfairness of pilots spending 15+ years on a seniority list and having to start again at the bottom because their company went bust? Our companies are run by senior executives who have fundamentally different (and shorter term) incentives to those of pilots on long seniority lists.

I did acknowledge that there's always a chance of falling short in luck. That could happen in the property market, or an unexpected disease. Really anything. Your bankruptcy is unfortunately something You have to live with, just as I'd have to live with My bankruptcy. Having waited a long time, I am not going to stand down my career opportunities in pity. And I am not expecting you to stand down yours.

[deja vu]

Seniority is not perfect, I just don't know of a better system that is not open to abuse.

[NoelEvans]

Originally Posted by VinRouge

Bottom line is there are no UK Longhaul operators that don’t operate a seniority system. I would suggest that is for a reason.

I would argue that that reason is 'inertia'. It is a huge mass not necessarily going the correct way, but too much effort is needed to change its direction. Inertia is often one of the biggest 'obstructions' to improvement.

There are some very entrenched views here. With the extremes of "that is the way it always has been" and "pilots will be able to move equally and freely". Neither are logically valid.

The "first come first served" (let's call it FCFS) system has been mentioned. That would be the same as arriving at a counter to buy something and taking a 'numbered ticket' for your place in queue. For the next thing that you want to buy you get a similar numbered ticket. A base move? Put in your bid and you get your place in the queue. Fleet change? Put in your bid and you get your place in the queue. Command? Meet the criteria then put in your bid and get your place in the queue. As with any queuing system anyone 'arriving' after you is behind you in the queue.

In a seniority system you get that 'numbered ticket' for your place in all of those queues, even for queues that you could never have dreamed would exist, the day that you join the airline. With that 'number' you can change your mind about which queue to join as your whim takes you and 'trump' others who have been in another queue for a long time already with your 'number' and queue-jump towards the head of that queue.

As regards commands, both systems are equally capable of having good systems for meeting the criteria for command or of having 'brown nose' or 'best buddy' systems for 'meeting' that criteria; all that is at question here is which queuing system you use from then on.

As regards Direct Entry Captains, they should be in the equivalent of that FCFS queue. If there are no suitably qualified candidates immediately available for promotion then there is an immediate position at the top of that 'queue' and a DEC position is justified.

I have worked for airlines that have used both systems and for me the straight seniority system is the by far the least preferable.

Seniority lists and final salary pension schemes have always been the shackles that have been hugely detrimental to pilot job mobility. With an airline failure (and they happen irritatingly often and not even 'legacy' airlines are immune) both those shackles shatter the pilots' careers and futures. Final salary pension schemes are now almost gone as one of those shackles and seniority lists need to be the next.

Losing pilots and having to replace them is one of the huge costs of maintaining a pilot force. Seniority lists and final salary schemes have been one of the best tools available to management to block pilot mobility. Without those shackles, terms and conditions will have to be the method of maintaining a stable pilot force. Those terms and conditions are not always just "money, money" but often lifestyle matters like basing options, work patterns, etc. One of the biggest 'legacy' airlines in this country is losing some pilots to one of the biggest LCCs, so pilots are starting to look at more than just the 'headline' terms and conditions.

Seniority list systems are on the start of the way out, but due to that huge inertia it is going to take a long time. Airline failures have been one of the biggest 'culls' of seniority lists as the last two to fail used seniority lists. But in doing so they have highlighted the serious shortcomings of that system. Seniority lists, like final salary pension schemes, are going to disappear from pilots' employment conditions. Seniority lists are going to take a bit longer to go.

About the "20 year FOs", I have know someone who retired from a "seniority list airline" as an FO by choice and entirely due to that seniority list: as a very senior FO he was near the top of the FO 'list' and could ensure a good lifestyle and acceptable earnings; if he was promoted he would be at the bottom of the Captain 'list' with a crappy lifestyle and hardly improved earnings. So, because of the seniority list he chose to remain an FO up to his retirement. So don't blindly quote "20 year FOs" to 'support' seniority lists!!

[TACHO]

Originally Posted by NoelEvans

I would argue that that reason is 'inertia'. It is a huge mass not necessarily going the correct way, but too much effort is needed to change its direction. Inertia is often one of the biggest 'obstructions' to improvement.

There are some very entrenched views here. With the extremes of "that is the way it always has been" and "pilots will be able to move equally and freely". Neither are logically valid.

The "first come first served" (let's call it FCFS) system has been mentioned. That would be the same as arriving at a counter to buy something and taking a 'numbered ticket' for your place in queue. For the next thing that you want to buy you get a similar numbered ticket. A base move? Put in your bid and you get your place in the queue. Fleet change? Put in your bid and you get your place in the queue. Command? Meet the criteria then put in your bid and get your place in the queue. As with any queuing system anyone 'arriving' after you is behind you in the queue.

In a seniority system you get that 'numbered ticket' for your place in all of those queues, even for queues that you could never have dreamed would exist, the day that you join the airline. With that 'number' you can change your mind about which queue to join as your whim takes you and 'trump' others who have been in another queue for a long time already with your 'number' and queue-jump towards the head of that queue.

As regards commands, both systems are equally capable of having good systems for meeting the criteria for command or of having 'brown nose' or 'best buddy' systems for 'meeting' that criteria; all that is at question here is which queuing system you use from then on.

As regards Direct Entry Captains, they should be in the equivalent of that FCFS queue. If there are no suitably qualified candidates immediately available for promotion then there is an immediate position at the top of that 'queue' and a DEC position is justified.

I have worked for airlines that have used both systems and for me the straight seniority system is the by far the least preferable.

Seniority lists and final salary pension schemes have always been the shackles that have been hugely detrimental to pilot job mobility. With an airline failure (and they happen irritatingly often and not even 'legacy' airlines are immune) both those shackles shatter the pilots' careers and futures. Final salary pension schemes are now almost gone as one of those shackles and seniority lists need to be the next.

Losing pilots and having to replace them is one of the huge costs of maintaining a pilot force. Seniority lists and final salary schemes have been one of the best tools available to management to block pilot mobility. Without those shackles, terms and conditions will have to be the method of maintaining a stable pilot force. Those terms and conditions are not always just "money, money" but often lifestyle matters like basing options, work patterns, etc. One of the biggest 'legacy' airlines in this country is losing some pilots to one of the biggest LCCs, so pilots are starting to look at more than just the 'headline' terms and conditions.

Seniority list systems are on the start of the way out, but due to that huge inertia it is going to take a long time. Airline failures have been one of the biggest 'culls' of seniority lists as the last two to fail used seniority lists. But in doing so they have highlighted the serious shortcomings of that system. Seniority lists, like final salary pension schemes, are going to disappear from pilots' employment conditions. Seniority lists are going to take a bit longer to go.

About the "20 year FOs", I have know someone who retired from a "seniority list airline" as an FO by choice and entirely due to that seniority list: as a very senior FO he was near the top of the FO 'list' and could ensure a good lifestyle and acceptable earnings; if he was promoted he would be at the bottom of the Captain 'list' with a crappy lifestyle and hardly improved earnings. So, because of the seniority list he chose to remain an FO up to his retirement. So don't blindly quote "20 year FOs" to 'support' seniority lists!!

one of the most reasoned and articulate posts here, talks sense

[3Greens]

Originally Posted by TACHO

one of the most reasoned and articulate posts here, talks sense

ahhh but threat 20 year FO was a direct beniciary of seniority, in that his lifestyle as that senior FO was so good because he was so senior on his status list.

[hans brinker]

Originally Posted by VariablePitchP

What you’ve just said has pretty much sealed the seniority argument for me. Not sure if you think what you’re saying is a good or a bad thing though, tone doesn’t really come through in text

As an FO, I don’t want to fly with the person who is trying to be at the top of the fuel league table by never taking any extra, who never stops to get the aircraft checked by engineers and doesn’t put in fatigue reports. The person you’ve just described sounds way, way too punchy. That sort of task focused mentality I’m sure works great in the military when there is a genuine mission that must be achieved. It has no place in commercial aviation.

don’t worry, I’m firmly on the seniority first side

[hans brinker]

Originally Posted by flyer4life

Scaremongering. None of this happens at my non-seniority airline and any plans to introduce such nonsense could be easily stopped by a united workforce and a decent union. Also, such an airline would become a crap place to work and, with true free movement of labour, would struggle to maintain staff levels.



But it’s OK for the gross unfairness of pilots spending 15+ years on a seniority list and having to start again at the bottom because their company went bust? Our companies are run by senior executives who have fundamentally different (and shorter term) incentives to those of pilots on long seniority lists. The executives don’t have to worry about starting at the bottom if it all goes wrong.

It would be interesting to see the true numbers, but considering more companies have folded over time than exist now, it’s a reasonable assumption to say seniority has screwed more of us than it has benefitted.

The future is so unpredictable with many, many unknowns. Trying to plan around a 20 year wait in the queue at one company seems more like an exercise in one’s luck than “choosing wisely”.

I honestly have no clue how you can have a Union, but not seniority. As far as the eternal “is it fair” argument: Maybe not, but it definitely isn’t fair for those in a well run company waiting for their upgrade to by be bypassed by people that took the early upgrade in a dodgy company.

[NoelEvans]

Originally Posted by 3Greens

ahhh but threat 20 year FO was a direct beniciary of seniority, in that his lifestyle as that senior FO was so good because he was so senior on his status list.

An amusing attempt to "snatch victory from the jaws of defeat" on the seniority argument: a 'beneficiary' of seniority when it was exactly that seniority situation that stifled his opportunities for promotion? Nice try!

Originally Posted by hans brinker

I honestly have no clue how you can have a Union, but not seniority. ...

easyJet has active union involvement and does not use seniority.

Originally Posted by hans brinker

... As far as the eternal “is it fair” argument: Maybe not, but it definitely isn’t fair for those in a well run company waiting for their upgrade to by be bypassed by people that took the early upgrade in a dodgy company.

​​​​From the easyJet recruiting website:

Minimum criteria:
– Type Rated Captains: minimum 4000 flying hours with 1000 PIC hours
– Non Type Rated Captains: minimum 4000 flying hours with 1000 PIC hours on jet aircraft over 30T MTOW

I would like to hear the response from those ex-Monarch captains who got jobs in easyJet after their airline went bust as I would like to hear the same comments from ex-Thomas Cook captains looking for jobs there when you imply that they might have

[taken] the early upgrade in a dodgy company.

[flyer4life]

Exactly NoelEvans, I was one who took “a dodgy upgrade” at Monarch, thinking I was comfortably at a career airline with the cushion of seniority.

And then I joined EZY as DEC where we have unions across Europe without seniority, although there is an element of pay based on length of service. Great to stay LHS of course, shame to lose the career option of long haul at my old airline.

For those outside of UK, Monarch was a seniority airline that lasted for almost 50 years, until a combination of events and a take-over by venture capitalists brought about its demise. Not long ago, when many of us made our career choices, it was considered a very secure, career airline. It had a superb safety record and a reputation for high standards, nothing dodgy about it at all.

I think a lot of guys just don’t understand the unfortunate situations that can occur outside of their own seniority bubble. My point is that seniority punishes decisions you made years ago when you simply cannot predict the future. It’s mostly down to luck and it could happen to any of us. It’s naïve to think otherwise.

I think to have more career choices later in life outside of dumb seniority is of great benefit if one’s luck doesn’t hold out for decades on a seniority list. I thought we pilots liked to have options?

[deja vu]

Whinge, moan, it's not fair, boo hoo. Certainly doesn't sound like professional pilots, more like a bunch of school kids. No wonder the status of pilots has dropped to that of glorified bus drivers. What you are mostly saying is whatever system suits me right now is fine.

[flyer4life]

Yes, seniority is very much like school. “I’ve been here longer than you so I am better”.

[deja vu]

Originally Posted by flyer4life

Yes, seniority is very much like school. “I’ve been here longer than you so I am better”.

Exhibit A...I rest my case me lud!