Seniority
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Seniority should never be looked at as a stand alone issue. In any airline worth working for you need a seniority list with associated rules on how you get onto it. Then there is the Ops Manual Part A, B and D covering all the SOPs, training and checking procedures so everything is transparent from the outset of how you get to the LHS. Then you need decent and independent training and checking departments, a bidding system with associated rules on who gets a shot at the title and an ombudsman to oversee any issues that might arise and need adjudication.
Its not perfect but I would rather that than the short term view of DECs, threats of base closures, bidding for your command and naming a price that goes on in certain bottom feeders.
Its not perfect but I would rather that than the short term view of DECs, threats of base closures, bidding for your command and naming a price that goes on in certain bottom feeders.
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Doesn't seem to be an issue in any other non seniority based profession?
EDIT: from a redundancy point of view, if a company goes to the wall seniority is meaningless anyway. i can tell you some stories regarding what protection people thought seniority gave them and what the reality was.
EDIT: from a redundancy point of view, if a company goes to the wall seniority is meaningless anyway. i can tell you some stories regarding what protection people thought seniority gave them and what the reality was.
Your EDIT point is, of course, correct. And I say that as a former TCX pilot!
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Legacy airlines with seniority systems do go bust. Pan Am, Swissair, Sabena.
There are two seats in the front of an aeroplane. One for the Captain, one for the First Officer. That means that on average a pilot spends half of his/her career as a First Officer and half as a Captain. As the airline industry is expanding, the odds are for more time as a Captain. With or without seniority.
With seniority, the Captains in airlines that go bust are effectively thrown on the rubbish dump with other pilots sitting smug with their 'number' thinking "I'm alright, Jack".
Without seniority, those Captains could get jobs elsewhere. Yes, it might put back some First Officer's promotion, but that First Officer will know that when he eventually gets his command he/she will be doing so with the knowledge that if their airline went bust one day they could also have the opportunity to try for a Captain position elsewhere, rather than being thrown out on the rubbish dump.
With seniority, a Captain's position in this industry is extremely precarious.
And Pilots do move from airlines with seniority to airlines without. Some have got to realise that seniority is not the 'B'-all-and-end-all in this industry. Lifestyle, job satisfaction, being treated to show that you are valued, etc., etc., etc., are all more important and the airlines who will take them on without the boot of seniority holding them down will gain from having those pilots.
Seniority is a selfish system.
There are two seats in the front of an aeroplane. One for the Captain, one for the First Officer. That means that on average a pilot spends half of his/her career as a First Officer and half as a Captain. As the airline industry is expanding, the odds are for more time as a Captain. With or without seniority.
With seniority, the Captains in airlines that go bust are effectively thrown on the rubbish dump with other pilots sitting smug with their 'number' thinking "I'm alright, Jack".
Without seniority, those Captains could get jobs elsewhere. Yes, it might put back some First Officer's promotion, but that First Officer will know that when he eventually gets his command he/she will be doing so with the knowledge that if their airline went bust one day they could also have the opportunity to try for a Captain position elsewhere, rather than being thrown out on the rubbish dump.
With seniority, a Captain's position in this industry is extremely precarious.
And Pilots do move from airlines with seniority to airlines without. Some have got to realise that seniority is not the 'B'-all-and-end-all in this industry. Lifestyle, job satisfaction, being treated to show that you are valued, etc., etc., etc., are all more important and the airlines who will take them on without the boot of seniority holding them down will gain from having those pilots.
Seniority is a selfish system.
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Care to comment? Do you think it's fair to have a Emirates, Turkish or even Easyjet expat who has earned $$$ more than me come home and join as a DEC? Just because "they want to come home"? There is no need for DEC anyway where I work. We're not short of suitable candidates.
172 driver, maybe crossed wires, and my post wasn't addressing your's in particular, more the underlying theme of the thread.
If the Emirates, Easy or turkish guy is better at his job (I'm not saying they are of course) I'd have to say... well yes that would be fair, as that or a similar option would be available to you as well if seniority didnt exist? The picture you paint is only unfair in a system where seniority exists. Without a seniority based system you could go where you please at no cost to yourself and walk right into a new company at the same level or near enough.
Macdo, my sincerest sympathies regards TCX, been in the same boat. a few times now.
With regards to the other part you wrote, I take your point and it is true you know where you stand... But also reiterate my point that often seniority rewards mediocrity, simply coasting along for years in the same company shouldn't be worth as much, when there are maybe people wanting positions who are far more able. Some people are high on a seniority list only by virtue of the fact that no one else would have them (captain and FO alike). Nepotism does exist that is true, but companys such as easyjet don't seem to struggle with it and I believe (anecdotally and generally) they tend to pick the right people for the job, all without a seniority list in sight.
Furthermore would you say it is a fairer system then ,that in 'normal' workplace environment that you'd be comfortable if person A was given the chop even though they were better at their job, purely based on the fact that person B was there longer but not as productive?
In my former airline it came as quite a shock to one or two who believed that, as they had been there 5 years automatically meant they should be a captain and likewise there were guys who would have been fantastic captains but were blocked by those above who were often less able.... furthermore there were FO's who had done little else but keep a seat warm, yet in many circumstances were paid more than a captain, purely because of how long they had been there.
Seniority is far from a perfect system. Without it there are injustices yes, but no more unjust than the other way, except one restricts and the other allows movement, which would be in all pilots favour. The guys on a seniority list near the top would be where they want so wouldn't have to worry as surely if they had been there that long they'd be pretty proficient?
edited to add: if you want to see how much seniority 'protects' people, have a swing over to the TUI recruitment thread. Seniority works when it is the company's favour and for those at its apex... I wonder how many TUI captains and union reps will be going in to bat for the FO's who have been patiently waiting for their command 'according to the seniority list'...
Last edited by TACHO; 11th Oct 2019 at 15:00. Reason: Addition
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Macdo, At least with LIFO everyone knows where they stand.
I think you’ll find LIFO is not a criteria used legally when it comes to selecting candidates for redundancy, Another reason why Seniority I feel is past it’s sell by date.
Lhs320
I think you’ll find LIFO is not a criteria used legally when it comes to selecting candidates for redundancy, Another reason why Seniority I feel is past it’s sell by date.
Lhs320
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I think you’ll find LIFO is a perfectly legal tool in determining whom is selected for redundancy...it’s just that it can’t be the SOLE factor in doing so. The criteria can be so heavily weighted towards LIFO however, such that it may as well be the on,y factor...
Has seniority had its day?
We stay loyal to a seniority based airline, and then the bean counters, squeeze the lemon to tight and then hundreds of experienced pilots hit the skids.
Experienced Captains and FO’s with thousands of hours scramble for jobs.
A captain then has to consider going to the bottom of a seniority based list behind a newbie from flight school and likewise for the experienced FO, or to head East to work in some sh1t hole. Or go through selection for a fictitious job, and swim for all your life in the hope that some HR bod will email you before you go skint.
Being loyal had its boundaries years ago but not now. Seniority for my money has had its day.
LHS 320
We stay loyal to a seniority based airline, and then the bean counters, squeeze the lemon to tight and then hundreds of experienced pilots hit the skids.
Experienced Captains and FO’s with thousands of hours scramble for jobs.
A captain then has to consider going to the bottom of a seniority based list behind a newbie from flight school and likewise for the experienced FO, or to head East to work in some sh1t hole. Or go through selection for a fictitious job, and swim for all your life in the hope that some HR bod will email you before you go skint.
Being loyal had its boundaries years ago but not now. Seniority for my money has had its day.
LHS 320
Do you think it's fair to have a Emirates, Turkish or even Easyjet expat who has earned $$$ more than me come home and join as a DEC?
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And what if it's a good mate of theirs at the company that says they are a better pilot? Saw this a load of times in a previous career.People still fail command courses despite doing 15+ years in the right hand seat.
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I can see both sides. I have reasonable seniority , meant nothing when my last airline went bust.
I’d only go elsewhere as a captain - I’ve done 15 years of it now and can’t see me with two stripes again , I just enjoy it much more.
That said it would be abroad , I fully understand why the virgin and BA FOs play the long game for considerably better money eventually.
I’d only go elsewhere as a captain - I’ve done 15 years of it now and can’t see me with two stripes again , I just enjoy it much more.
That said it would be abroad , I fully understand why the virgin and BA FOs play the long game for considerably better money eventually.
And how would it be decided what pilot is "better" than the other 10,000+ to be evaluated for employment when moving from Airline A to Airline B...on an individual contract ?
The concept of a national seniority number to accommodate some of the issues raised in this thread has been floated here a few times among ALPA-represented carriers. It got nowhere.
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You probably find that the posters above who are in favour of a seniority based system are working for seniority based airlines and the ones against it aren't working for a seniority based airline or are not content with their current employer.
Belonging to the former group I do really appreciate a seniority system having worked for an airline without seniority system before. In that airline there was zero transparency and the general feeling was DEC were (at the time, I've no idea how things are these days) prioritised over internal upgrades. In order to lure DEC in they were given the base of choice. First officers lucky enough to pass the upgrade (less then 25% at the time while the chances were significantly better if you had flew for the right RAF or Navy squadron if that by itself wasn't already enough for DEC) were directed to the less popular bases to show their loyalty.
In my current airline because of seniority things are very transparent. I probably took a hit career wise to join my current outfit in return for job stability (I've been trough an airline bankruptcy once and the charter/holiday airlines in the UK don't have a very impressive track record with regards to survivability). As 172_driver mentioned before I would therefor not be impressed if (hypothetical since as 172_driver already said there is no need for DEC were I work and it is even less likely that we ever say goodbye to the seniority system) the ones who elected career progression above job stability jumped the list as DEC. They are more than welcome to join but only at the bottom of the seniority list with the corresponding rank.
Belonging to the former group I do really appreciate a seniority system having worked for an airline without seniority system before. In that airline there was zero transparency and the general feeling was DEC were (at the time, I've no idea how things are these days) prioritised over internal upgrades. In order to lure DEC in they were given the base of choice. First officers lucky enough to pass the upgrade (less then 25% at the time while the chances were significantly better if you had flew for the right RAF or Navy squadron if that by itself wasn't already enough for DEC) were directed to the less popular bases to show their loyalty.
In my current airline because of seniority things are very transparent. I probably took a hit career wise to join my current outfit in return for job stability (I've been trough an airline bankruptcy once and the charter/holiday airlines in the UK don't have a very impressive track record with regards to survivability). As 172_driver mentioned before I would therefor not be impressed if (hypothetical since as 172_driver already said there is no need for DEC were I work and it is even less likely that we ever say goodbye to the seniority system) the ones who elected career progression above job stability jumped the list as DEC. They are more than welcome to join but only at the bottom of the seniority list with the corresponding rank.
Last edited by Jumbo2; 11th Oct 2019 at 21:35.
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LIFO as a means of determining redundancy is currently legal, but, it is open to legal challenge which hasn't been successfully done yet. It was last deemed legal after an agreement to put a bias into the system to allow proportional amounts of males/females to be made redundant.
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I wonder what is so special about aviation industry in terms of career development.
Reading this thread one may have an impression that only seniority gives transparent way of career progression. Otherwise we have that grey area of nepotism, lack of transparency and alike.
How come in any other industry it is totally normal that you oprogress gaining expirience, proving you're better than your peers and have skillset required for next step on the ladder?
I read "Fate is the Hunter" as a teenager and it was beyond me even back then how idiotic that system is. Honestly, I thought it had long gone in '50 or maybe '60. I was extremely suprised when I learned it is totally normal even now and there are people supporting it.
With all respect - I work in IT and cannot even think how my industry would look like if we would have seniority system. How come incompetent idiot flying for 5 yrs in one company is in better position than supersmart and skilled captain with 20 years behind his belt but simply decided to change employer? Does this have anything to do with HR in XXI century?
&
Reading this thread one may have an impression that only seniority gives transparent way of career progression. Otherwise we have that grey area of nepotism, lack of transparency and alike.
How come in any other industry it is totally normal that you oprogress gaining expirience, proving you're better than your peers and have skillset required for next step on the ladder?
I read "Fate is the Hunter" as a teenager and it was beyond me even back then how idiotic that system is. Honestly, I thought it had long gone in '50 or maybe '60. I was extremely suprised when I learned it is totally normal even now and there are people supporting it.
With all respect - I work in IT and cannot even think how my industry would look like if we would have seniority system. How come incompetent idiot flying for 5 yrs in one company is in better position than supersmart and skilled captain with 20 years behind his belt but simply decided to change employer? Does this have anything to do with HR in XXI century?
&
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Any other way to judge a pilot is flawed - OTP, Fuel carriage tables etc. We work as a 2 person crew, punishing or rewarding based on these factors would not be fair, especially for an FO trying to change jobs. Not that any airline would ever release OTP figures for their employees anyway. Basing your "value" on an interview process with Sim check wouldn't be fair either - i'm sure we all know excellent pilots that have failed interviews, and poor ones who have passed.
The only other method I can think of is to look at number and content of ASR's submitted to see how "safe" they are (again something no airline would release anyway). What a terrible idea that would be - I for one wouldn't put in safety reports if it was going to compromise a potential future airline change.
I'm playing devil's advocate here. I think seniority systems are flawed and restrict movement - but the current alternative also has it's issues. One thing I do think should change (and this won't be a popular opinion) is we should remove pay scales. The fact a 15 year pilot gets paid more than a 1 year one in the same role discourages airlines from wanting to make an environment that makes people want to stay - its cheaper for them to have a CP and FO both at the lower end of the pay scale. The aircraft still gets to the same destination from their point of view. It also stops us as pilots from pushing for better pay as we get an automatic pay rise each year we are in the company anyway.
Only half a speed-brake
Similar to the thread in JB about the other "S..." word, this one Seniority is also intended to be a helpful tool for the benefit of the employed folk, creating a stable intra-company environment. Yet it may twist and bend at the coal face of reality, sometimes well beyond its intended use and could become just a deadweight which will not serve its purpose well even in push came to shove. Pardon the analogy.
The discussion of whether or not we'd be better of without it will depend on what is the (non?)-implementation in the individual work environments, and what are the problems we hope to solve with it.
It is a multi-faceted device.
Salary steps.
Sick leave bank.
Career progression opportunities
- traing assignments
- fleet changes
- CAPT upgrades
Choice of base.
Leave allocation priority
Part-time contracts, extended parenting leave
Job protection in downsizing.
LOAw/pP
Rejoining options.
Pension fund and share allocation schemes.
Early retirement
Even at companies who formally do not have a Seniority system, the rules for a great number of the above would be based on the Day of Joining or similar.
No unique thoughts from me, save for one that was voiced already but I would like to join explicitly: If someone thinks seniority clause would provide protection based on LIFO during official and formal process of redundancies, and that will withstand the scrutiny at Court / Employment tribunal (continental EU rules, admittedly), a massive shock might be coming.
If you listen closely to what were the airline closures and downsizings of the past decade, LIFO decisions are typically avoided by the companies themselves in order to avoid protracted litigations, revocation, reinstallments and compensation damages.
The discussion of whether or not we'd be better of without it will depend on what is the (non?)-implementation in the individual work environments, and what are the problems we hope to solve with it.
It is a multi-faceted device.
Salary steps.
Sick leave bank.
Career progression opportunities
- traing assignments
- fleet changes
- CAPT upgrades
Choice of base.
Leave allocation priority
Part-time contracts, extended parenting leave
Job protection in downsizing.
LOAw/pP
Rejoining options.
Pension fund and share allocation schemes.
Early retirement
Even at companies who formally do not have a Seniority system, the rules for a great number of the above would be based on the Day of Joining or similar.
No unique thoughts from me, save for one that was voiced already but I would like to join explicitly: If someone thinks seniority clause would provide protection based on LIFO during official and formal process of redundancies, and that will withstand the scrutiny at Court / Employment tribunal (continental EU rules, admittedly), a massive shock might be coming.
If you listen closely to what were the airline closures and downsizings of the past decade, LIFO decisions are typically avoided by the companies themselves in order to avoid protracted litigations, revocation, reinstallments and compensation damages.
Judging from the airline names, I would guess most of you are European. I left for the US almost 2 decades ago (family reasons). All carriers here are seniority based with union. There is not a change that will change. Also T&C's here at all the LCCs (at this moment) vastly better than at all LCCs in the EU. Because we can only do our job just as good as the next guy (SOP) seniority makes sense, having a union prevents other pilots from undercutting pay. The results speak for themselves.
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Can an experienced Captain NOT from TC apply for these DEC positions at TUI?
I doubt it, in which case I doubt that the TC DECs are legal. It is arbitrary the way high profile redundancies which hit the press get favourable treatment, while lower profile redundancies, or ones due to downsizing, get ignored, or bottom priority for copilot, no matter the experience level.
I doubt it, in which case I doubt that the TC DECs are legal. It is arbitrary the way high profile redundancies which hit the press get favourable treatment, while lower profile redundancies, or ones due to downsizing, get ignored, or bottom priority for copilot, no matter the experience level.