Jet2, Tui Or Ryanair?
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It's time we get over the idea that some companies are 'nicer' than others. The single most valuable asset to any company is not as we would like to believe its people, but is in fact the company itself. When things go pear-shaped on a global scale like they are now any company will do whatever it needs to do to survive. Being nice isn't going to pay the bills.
Another idea we need to get over is that airline management are somehow worse than management in any other line of business. They're not. But they are there to serve the interests of the business, which is not necessarily the same as looking after the interests of the people working for the business.
Ps: I do not work in management (aviation or otherwise) and have no intension or desire to do so.
Another idea we need to get over is that airline management are somehow worse than management in any other line of business. They're not. But they are there to serve the interests of the business, which is not necessarily the same as looking after the interests of the people working for the business.
Ps: I do not work in management (aviation or otherwise) and have no intension or desire to do so.
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Even without the third party flights going ahead, we’re still going to be overcrewed at TUI for quite some time.
Having suffered no pilot redundancies at TUI has little to do with management being nice or not being nice.
It is down to a strong representation by its pilot Union and it’s current company council.
I’m sure that when negotiations started, our management would have almost certainly had Pilot redundancies up their sleeves, along with a whole host of other losses of T&C’s.
Thankfully the relationship between Balpa and our Pilot management is the best it's been in a while, therefore the Union was able to agree a package of measures which looked at a more longer term picture for the company, including a ‘12 month paid at 80% of basic’ voluntary severance scheme for 47 of the most senior pilots on the highest (20+) year pay scales, which along with other measures has resulted in zero redundancies.
The negotiations have focused the attention of management to the longer term picture of in-house re-growth, without the need to rely on expensive third party operations.
Having suffered no pilot redundancies at TUI has little to do with management being nice or not being nice.
It is down to a strong representation by its pilot Union and it’s current company council.
I’m sure that when negotiations started, our management would have almost certainly had Pilot redundancies up their sleeves, along with a whole host of other losses of T&C’s.
Thankfully the relationship between Balpa and our Pilot management is the best it's been in a while, therefore the Union was able to agree a package of measures which looked at a more longer term picture for the company, including a ‘12 month paid at 80% of basic’ voluntary severance scheme for 47 of the most senior pilots on the highest (20+) year pay scales, which along with other measures has resulted in zero redundancies.
The negotiations have focused the attention of management to the longer term picture of in-house re-growth, without the need to rely on expensive third party operations.
Last edited by twogoodstarts; 4th Aug 2020 at 15:06.
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An accurate account as id see the recent developments/plans for the future at TUI
Just for clarity, as there seems to be some misunderstanding certainly with posters that followed my own just above - Id personally not made any reference to "niceness" - guilty however of feeling pleased Id been allowed the opportunity to play a small part in the decision made regarding peers careers. By virtue of the set up that is well described in "twogoodstarts" post above.
For sure all businesses are being forced to make some hard decisions presently, we all get that they will protect the business at all costs, which is absolutely right and just. However its equally clear that each business can accomplish this in different ways. that's a function of their current financial situation/future plan/resilience and a very large slice of company and departmental culture whether it has any inclusive or team ethos to making those big decisions.
Recruitment will return one day and hopefully when we do eventually return to some semblance of a notion of normality, then the cream of the crop use information freely available here and now about how companies react under pressure in relation to employees to decide where they prioritise their target airline of choice - different strokes for different folks and all that...
So theres a reasonably balanced warts and all account so far at TUI as it stands twixt the first phases of COVID and prior the winter increase in the virus.
Just for clarity, as there seems to be some misunderstanding certainly with posters that followed my own just above - Id personally not made any reference to "niceness" - guilty however of feeling pleased Id been allowed the opportunity to play a small part in the decision made regarding peers careers. By virtue of the set up that is well described in "twogoodstarts" post above.
For sure all businesses are being forced to make some hard decisions presently, we all get that they will protect the business at all costs, which is absolutely right and just. However its equally clear that each business can accomplish this in different ways. that's a function of their current financial situation/future plan/resilience and a very large slice of company and departmental culture whether it has any inclusive or team ethos to making those big decisions.
Recruitment will return one day and hopefully when we do eventually return to some semblance of a notion of normality, then the cream of the crop use information freely available here and now about how companies react under pressure in relation to employees to decide where they prioritise their target airline of choice - different strokes for different folks and all that...
So theres a reasonably balanced warts and all account so far at TUI as it stands twixt the first phases of COVID and prior the winter increase in the virus.
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Second hand info so can’t confirm its veracity, but it seems that Jet2 management have threatened the pilots there with further redundancies if they don’t immediately sign up to huge, non time limited pay cuts.
£70k for a 737/757/A321 captain: the new normal. Terms and conditions will never recover from this.
£70k for a 737/757/A321 captain: the new normal. Terms and conditions will never recover from this.
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Just to add a bit more perspective to the above. Jet2 communicated a need for redundancies and a pay cut from August - December some time ago now. This has been stalled and not yet agreed by BALPA, much to the displeasure of many who feel that whilst the redundancies are awful, it is an industry problem and not a snipe for the sake of it by Jet2 management. The company has since communicated that as the proposed period of pay reduction has now begun without any agreement, further delay could damage the effect of this cost saving measure and could have repercussions.
Whilst I can absolutely not speak for everyone, I know a fair proportion of my local colleagues share the same view as me, in that the company deserve a little bit of faith in these challenging times and that BALPA are actually jeopardising more jobs by stalling and asking for cast iron guarantees which I am not sure are reasonable given the current global situation.
Whilst I can absolutely not speak for everyone, I know a fair proportion of my local colleagues share the same view as me, in that the company deserve a little bit of faith in these challenging times and that BALPA are actually jeopardising more jobs by stalling and asking for cast iron guarantees which I am not sure are reasonable given the current global situation.
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As stated above, Jet2 have taken the decision to cut Pilot pay to 70% until the end of the year. At the moment they are massively over crewed and will be even more so in the winter. The company have worked out that this, coupled with the 102 redundancies, is what they need to do in order to survive with a reasonable cash balance until next summer. In the big scheme of things, keeping crews on 70% pay whilst most are at home I think is pretty generous. It’s unfortunate for the 102, but I understand most joined this winter in anticipation of a bumper summer season. No doubt they will be welcomed back when things pick up. Jet2 Ts and Cs have improved immeasurably over the last few years and I have no doubt that pay will return to previous levels when the finances allow. Let the Company manage the situation. Unfortunately BALPA demanding a fixed date when pay will return to normal is not very helpful. There are too many variables including potential further lockdowns or quarantine arrangements. BALPA demanding things in the current climate may well result in further job losses; oh the irony!
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Second hand info so can’t confirm its veracity, but it seems that Jet2 management have threatened the pilots there with further redundancies if they don’t immediately sign up to huge, non time limited pay cuts.
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Oceanic815
Just for balance and in no way a poke at you. But I think you would be less sanguine if you were currently in line to be canned, especially since most of the 102 are looking at their 2nd redundancy within a year. More to the point,BALPA is there working in your best interests and will be only too aware of the risks involved in asking for too much. Look at how a sensible industrial negotiation has mitigated the threat (so far) at TUI and how poorly unrepresented pilots have fared at Emirates. I'm not saying that J2 management are saints or monsters, but you never needed good representation more than you need it now.
Just for balance and in no way a poke at you. But I think you would be less sanguine if you were currently in line to be canned, especially since most of the 102 are looking at their 2nd redundancy within a year. More to the point,BALPA is there working in your best interests and will be only too aware of the risks involved in asking for too much. Look at how a sensible industrial negotiation has mitigated the threat (so far) at TUI and how poorly unrepresented pilots have fared at Emirates. I'm not saying that J2 management are saints or monsters, but you never needed good representation more than you need it now.
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Macdo
No offence taken and I accept everyone will have their own view on BALPA. I really do feel for the 102, especially those facing a double redundancy. But as I understand it nearly half the pilots in the company are surplus to requirements this summer, and that was before the Spanish situation. Most of the 102 have not completed line training so unfortunately they were the easiest option. With regard to BALPA knowing the risks of overplaying their hand, the correspondence from them that I have seen (as a non member) seems very aggressive. Jet2 management have never been a fan of any union and BALPA demanding things in the current climate is really not going to help that. If we were back to a full flying schedule then that would be different. For another view, imagine how I would feel if I was made redundant, as a result of increased company costs due to the actions of a union I’m not even a member of!
The company management are the only ones who know the full implication of various actions on the balance sheet. My personal view is to let them get on with it without added distractions, and hopefully we can welcome back some of the 102 next year.
No offence taken and I accept everyone will have their own view on BALPA. I really do feel for the 102, especially those facing a double redundancy. But as I understand it nearly half the pilots in the company are surplus to requirements this summer, and that was before the Spanish situation. Most of the 102 have not completed line training so unfortunately they were the easiest option. With regard to BALPA knowing the risks of overplaying their hand, the correspondence from them that I have seen (as a non member) seems very aggressive. Jet2 management have never been a fan of any union and BALPA demanding things in the current climate is really not going to help that. If we were back to a full flying schedule then that would be different. For another view, imagine how I would feel if I was made redundant, as a result of increased company costs due to the actions of a union I’m not even a member of!
The company management are the only ones who know the full implication of various actions on the balance sheet. My personal view is to let them get on with it without added distractions, and hopefully we can welcome back some of the 102 next year.
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Whilst I have the utmost sympathy with Jet2 management having to make savings for the overall good of the business, I do find it frustrating that it appears that they have not entertained any sort of mitigation. Sensible suggestions from BALPA including sabbaticals, unpaid leave, part time, sharing the burden by a further pay cuts (not just of the 102 but of the entire workforce) appear to have been totally ignored. Almost a “we know better attitude”. I’m aware that it could be said the same of BALPA, insisting they know better too, however BALPA surely will have more expertise by their very nature. Management certainly don’t need to take the advice or assistance offered but to throw it aside without explanation is neither helpful nor professional. These are unprecedented times and I would have thought the assistance of a professional organisation like BALPA would have been of huge benefit.
I agree with many above that to ‘poke the bear‘ at this stage is risky so I would also leave well alone however once this is all over I really do hope that the BALPA team and the management can reflect on how things could have been done much much better for the benefit of everyone....
The 102 pilots, among many others are now being thrown out to a saturated market and I am truly saddened that nothing could have been done to save even a few of them. IMHO the only hope is that when things do improve Jet2 will recruit heavily once again and they’ll be asking those they let go back in first...
I agree with many above that to ‘poke the bear‘ at this stage is risky so I would also leave well alone however once this is all over I really do hope that the BALPA team and the management can reflect on how things could have been done much much better for the benefit of everyone....
The 102 pilots, among many others are now being thrown out to a saturated market and I am truly saddened that nothing could have been done to save even a few of them. IMHO the only hope is that when things do improve Jet2 will recruit heavily once again and they’ll be asking those they let go back in first...
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For a bit of balance to the company cheerleading that has been posted above and is prevalent in all of the company whatsapp groups let me share some cold reality to the Jet2 'deal'....
1. Its not a deal, a deal requires negotiation, of which there was none on the companies part as they refused to engage
2. People found out through a company email to a Balpa rep, a union of which most are not a member, why some of colleagues got paid less last month than others, a fact the company promised wouldn't be the case
3. The 'deal' has a higher pay cut with no end in sight than any of the actual deals agreed at TUI, RYR and BA, not to mention the loss of all bonuses for the previous year in which we made a healthy profit.
4. The 'deal' has a way higher percentage of redundancies of the pilot workforce than BA, TUI and RYR
The pilot bodies response: Why are BALPA trying to negotiate improvements on this awesome deal?!
Caveat to include Balpa don't help themselves with some of the idiotic Q & A they published recently.
1. Its not a deal, a deal requires negotiation, of which there was none on the companies part as they refused to engage
2. People found out through a company email to a Balpa rep, a union of which most are not a member, why some of colleagues got paid less last month than others, a fact the company promised wouldn't be the case
3. The 'deal' has a higher pay cut with no end in sight than any of the actual deals agreed at TUI, RYR and BA, not to mention the loss of all bonuses for the previous year in which we made a healthy profit.
4. The 'deal' has a way higher percentage of redundancies of the pilot workforce than BA, TUI and RYR
The pilot bodies response: Why are BALPA trying to negotiate improvements on this awesome deal?!
Caveat to include Balpa don't help themselves with some of the idiotic Q & A they published recently.
Last edited by Whitemonk Returns; 8th Aug 2020 at 13:06.
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Naivety, combined with ambivalence and a sprinkling of fear of rocking the boat.
There are many who aren't very happy with where things are going. I for one am disappointed that the company has basically put their fingers in their ears during their meetings with Balpa and called it "consultation". Regardless of the company finances, it's just plain wrong.
But, what can the pilot workforce do? Go on strike? We have mortgages to pay, families to feed. With the economy and job market as it is, what alternative do we have than to put up and shut up for the time being?
There are many who aren't very happy with where things are going. I for one am disappointed that the company has basically put their fingers in their ears during their meetings with Balpa and called it "consultation". Regardless of the company finances, it's just plain wrong.
But, what can the pilot workforce do? Go on strike? We have mortgages to pay, families to feed. With the economy and job market as it is, what alternative do we have than to put up and shut up for the time being?
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I’m not an expert in corporate finance, but I’m pretty sure that the rampant uncontrolled debt and catastrophic mismanagement at Thomas Cook was slightly more of a factor in its insolvency than the pilots being unionised.