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Training bonds - enforceable or not?

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Training bonds - enforceable or not?

Old 18th Sep 2019, 08:20
  #61 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: May 2019
Location: Aust
Posts: 49
Originally Posted by Snr View Post
That's the whole point of this argument. Some airlines (including my own) don't charge newly hired employees to pay for training. The airline pays for the training, and in return asks you to stay for 3 years. No salary sacrifice until you're passed the line check, no money upfront to cover costs. That's completely fair in my book.
When you say your airline asks newly hired employees to stay for 3 years, what happens if they don't.? And does your airline guarantee that they will continue to employee this new hire over that 3 years?
deja vu is offline  
Old 18th Sep 2019, 08:44
  #62 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Sep 2019
Location: Australia
Posts: 27
Originally Posted by Officer Kite View Post


The issue is a sizeable portion of those who join regional carriers have no intention of staying at all, they want to fly heavy metal as soon as they can and it has nothing to do with terms or conditions at the regional. Nothing wrong with that at all, we all have our aspirations, but what makes us think we donít need to accept the bills weíve built up for the airline that have effectively been used as a stepping stone?

Iím all for keeping our t&cís acceptable but in this case I struggle not to side with the airline. Someone has joined, taken advantage of an airline who were willing to give them their first break and paid their rating (they absolutely donít have to in the current climate for low hour pilots) that likely allowed them to even get the experience before the airline wih the heavy metal would even look at them, then itís acceptable for them to just wander off? Especially for airlines that donít deduct the tr from your salary and are trying to be ethical when others are charging 50k for the rating and line training, i think this is really poor form. Where is the encouragement for an airline to pay for the tr of young pilots in future who canít afford it up front? If everyone ran for the hills there wouldnít be an airline on the planet with a half competent financial department that would pay for anyoneís rating, then weíd all come on here moaning that no airline is willing to sponsor new aviators for the tr after theyíve forked out on an ATPL. Well who is to blame when we threw it back in their faces everytime they tried doing something even half ethical.




Well letís reverse that then. Use myself as an example. I have thousands of hours on both turboprop and jet aircraft in charter work and airlines.

Lets say you need to hire pilots and you donít want to sponsor the young guys with no experience in case they run away early (which is unlikely because a major airline unless desperate is not going to hire a pilot without serious experience first) so you decide to go after a pilot like me or one of the many experienced guys on here who have multiple type ratings.

So letís say I fly the type you are looking for, what are you going to offer me? Iím sure as hell not taking a pay cut out of the goodness of my heart to work for you, you are not typing me so all that is left is T&Cís, salary and QOL.

which means if you canít afford us experienced guys you need to go after cheaper inexperienced Labour and ensure they are typed on your aircraft you purchased or leased to make money off. That is your responsibility to your business and possible shareholders.

It is not a pilots problem whether you can afford to or not. You as a responsible businessman need to ensure your pilots will stay for a certain amount of time because itís not the cost of a TR that will bankrupt you, it is aircraft sitting on the ground.

No other industry in the world charges their employees to work for them and help reduce their business costs. If you choose not to type those inexperienced young guys thatís fine but you wonít have any pilots because you cannot afford us experienced ones so you simply go out of business.

So again, factor in all cost of doing business and ensure the carrot is big enough and juicy enough for 95% of your pilots to do their 3 years. If Emirates comes along and offers them the A380 on huge salaries, well thatís part of the risk of going into business and you knew that from the beginning.

As I said above earlier when times are tough for companies they just shred and cut loose employees in the blink of an eye regardless of their families, mortgages, medical bills etc yet the directors and CEOís collect their huge bonuses and take no pay cuts so dont blame the little guy for looking after himself.

Pilots never made the rules but are entitled to play by them, it works both ways.
TinFoilhat2 is offline  
Old 18th Sep 2019, 09:13
  #63 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Sep 2019
Location: Australia
Posts: 27
Originally Posted by Snr View Post
That's the whole point of this argument. Some airlines (including my own) don't charge newly hired employees to pay for training. The airline pays for the training, and in return asks you to stay for 3 years. No salary sacrifice until you're passed the line check, no money upfront to cover costs. That's completely fair in my book.
It may seem fair but in the grand scheme of things when there is a downturn and money is tight will the company honour the agreement they signed with you when they employed you, most likely not.

To them itís just business and you knew the risks of becoming a pilot in a very volatile industry. In other words they are looking after their best interests and the company.

Well a pilots company is himself and his family. When opportunity arrives to look after their best interests they like the company have every right to do so.

You canít bring the moral argument against the pilot but not the company when they let people go for business reasons, works both ways.

Your company does not charge newly hired inexperienced guys because they cannot afford to hire the typed experience guys so they really have no choice as they canít get pilots otherwise.

So factor in ALL COSTS including a type rating before hiring in the event you lose a guy early but if your T&Cís are good enough 95% will prolly do their 3 years as they know they need proper experience before going anywhere else like a major airline.

Imagine I open a Sushi restaurant and I tell the chef Iím bonding him for 3 years for using the kitchen because he has no real world experience and I put him thru a specialized Japanese sushi course.

I chose to open the restaurant knowing the risks involved and am responsible for factoring in all costs. Itís not the chefs fault I go bankrupt because I did not hire or could not afford an experienced Sushi chef so went the cheap route and got an inexperienced guy..

Then Gordon Ramsay opens up across the road and with a lot more money offers this guy a job in a restaurant that is going to do wonders for his career and he takes it because he is married and has 2 small children to support.

Can you really blame the young chef for grabbing a once in a lifetime opportunity.

The end result for the first restaurant owner all boils down to the fact he never factored in the costs of doing business and what happens if he loses his chef. Knowing this if your argument is well itís then too risky to give these young guys a chance then hire experienced guys but be prepared to stump up the cash and good benefits.

Either way itís going to cost you and you still need to factor in all of these expenses. Pay for type ratings with lower salaries or get experienced typed guys and end up paying a lot higher salaries (more than the cost of a TR) but either way....

It is the cost of doing business and there is no way around it.

Your business costs are not the responsibility of the pilot nor are they his concern. You knew the risks and if you could not afford it or never planned properly that is your problem and yours alone. It is simply business.

TinFoilhat2 is offline  
Old 18th Sep 2019, 13:49
  #64 (permalink)  
Snr
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: Scotland
Posts: 18
Originally Posted by deja vu View Post
When you say your airline asks newly hired employees to stay for 3 years, what happens if they don't.? And does your airline guarantee that they will continue to employee this new hire over that 3 years?
If they don't stay for the 3 years (many do leave within that period with the current market) then they repay the bond, which has been reducing. So the £15k bond as an example results in the pilot repaying £10k if they leave after 1 year. If you stay the 3 years, you have a TR you've not paid a penny for.

The airline guarantees your employment for the 3 years (and longer) - of course potential redundancy is a threat for any airline employee outwith a legacy carrier, but in my 5 years no-one has been forced to leave the company for anything other than misconduct.
Snr is offline  
Old 18th Sep 2019, 14:10
  #65 (permalink)  
Snr
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: Scotland
Posts: 18
Originally Posted by TinFoilhat2 View Post


Well letís reverse that then. Use myself as an example. I have thousands of hours on both turboprop and jet aircraft in charter work and airlines.

Lets say you need to hire pilots and you donít want to sponsor the young guys with no experience in case they run away early (which is unlikely because a major airline unless desperate is not going to hire a pilot without serious experience first) so you decide to go after a pilot like me or one of the many experienced guys on here who have multiple type ratings.

So letís say I fly the type you are looking for, what are you going to offer me? Iím sure as hell not taking a pay cut out of the goodness of my heart to work for you, you are not typing me so all that is left is T&Cís, salary and QOL.

which means if you canít afford us experienced guys you need to go after cheaper inexperienced Labour and ensure they are typed on your aircraft you purchased or leased to make money off. That is your responsibility to your business and possible shareholders.

It is not a pilots problem whether you can afford to or not. You as a responsible businessman need to ensure your pilots will stay for a certain amount of time because itís not the cost of a TR that will bankrupt you, it is aircraft sitting on the ground.

No other industry in the world charges their employees to work for them and help reduce their business costs. If you choose not to type those inexperienced young guys thatís fine but you wonít have any pilots because you cannot afford us experienced ones so you simply go out of business.

So again, factor in all cost of doing business and ensure the carrot is big enough and juicy enough for 95% of your pilots to do their 3 years. If Emirates comes along and offers them the A380 on huge salaries, well thatís part of the risk of going into business and you knew that from the beginning.

As I said above earlier when times are tough for companies they just shred and cut loose employees in the blink of an eye regardless of their families, mortgages, medical bills etc yet the directors and CEOís collect their huge bonuses and take no pay cuts so dont blame the little guy for looking after himself.

Pilots never made the rules but are entitled to play by them, it works both ways.

What you are asking is not really the point of this thread. I can't say what my company offers for TR pilots as we don't get them that often, but I would imagine there would be a negotiation on the cost and length of the bond if you are already rated. Either way - this thread is about whether you can/should break a Training Bond. Get your job offer, and associated bond conditions, and make your choice. If you aren't happy joining a company and being bonded, then look for a job elsewhere. If you sign on the dotted line, then see through your agreed term, or repay what you owe. It's that simple.

As for a few of your other points. You must not be up to date on the current industry recruitment, because every major airline is hiring pilots with low hours. A selection of carriers that have taken 500-1000 hour FO's from my airline in the past few years - BA, Air France, Tui, Jet2, EZY, Ryanair, Thomas Cook, Iberia, Air Baltic, Swiss, Are Lingus, Condor, Cargolux. So that's 6 months to a year before they can leave for pastures new.

Comparing a professional pilot and an airline to a chef is absurd. If a restaurant had to pay £15,000 to train the chef in his sashimi course, as well as pay his wages for 3 months before they see any return, I can guarantee they would made to sign a bond as well. Or asked for it upfront....
Snr is offline  

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