Training bonds - enforceable or not?
Officer KiteWell let’s reverse that then. Use myself as an example. I have thousands of hours on both turboprop and jet aircraft in charter work and airlines.
Lets say you need to hire pilots and you don’t want to sponsor the young guys with no experience in case they run away early (which is unlikely because a major airline unless desperate is not going to hire a pilot without serious experience first) so you decide to go after a pilot like me or one of the many experienced guys on here who have multiple type ratings.
So let’s say I fly the type you are looking for, what are you going to offer me? I’m sure as hell not taking a pay cut out of the goodness of my heart to work for you, you are not typing me so all that is left is T&C’s, salary and QOL.
which means if you can’t afford us experienced guys you need to go after cheaper inexperienced Labour and ensure they are typed on your aircraft you purchased or leased to make money off. That is your responsibility to your business and possible shareholders.
It is not a pilots problem whether you can afford to or not. You as a responsible businessman need to ensure your pilots will stay for a certain amount of time because it’s not the cost of a TR that will bankrupt you, it is aircraft sitting on the ground.
No other industry in the world charges their employees to work for them and help reduce their business costs. If you choose not to type those inexperienced young guys that’s fine but you won’t have any pilots because you cannot afford us experienced ones so you simply go out of business.
So again, factor in all cost of doing business and ensure the carrot is big enough and juicy enough for 95% of your pilots to do their 3 years. If Emirates comes along and offers them the A380 on huge salaries, well that’s part of the risk of going into business and you knew that from the beginning.
As I said above earlier when times are tough for companies they just shred and cut loose employees in the blink of an eye regardless of their families, mortgages, medical bills etc yet the directors and CEO’s collect their huge bonuses and take no pay cuts so dont blame the little guy for looking after himself.
Pilots never made the rules but are entitled to play by them, it works both ways.
Lets say you need to hire pilots and you don’t want to sponsor the young guys with no experience in case they run away early (which is unlikely because a major airline unless desperate is not going to hire a pilot without serious experience first) so you decide to go after a pilot like me or one of the many experienced guys on here who have multiple type ratings.
So let’s say I fly the type you are looking for, what are you going to offer me? I’m sure as hell not taking a pay cut out of the goodness of my heart to work for you, you are not typing me so all that is left is T&C’s, salary and QOL.
which means if you can’t afford us experienced guys you need to go after cheaper inexperienced Labour and ensure they are typed on your aircraft you purchased or leased to make money off. That is your responsibility to your business and possible shareholders.
It is not a pilots problem whether you can afford to or not. You as a responsible businessman need to ensure your pilots will stay for a certain amount of time because it’s not the cost of a TR that will bankrupt you, it is aircraft sitting on the ground.
No other industry in the world charges their employees to work for them and help reduce their business costs. If you choose not to type those inexperienced young guys that’s fine but you won’t have any pilots because you cannot afford us experienced ones so you simply go out of business.
So again, factor in all cost of doing business and ensure the carrot is big enough and juicy enough for 95% of your pilots to do their 3 years. If Emirates comes along and offers them the A380 on huge salaries, well that’s part of the risk of going into business and you knew that from the beginning.
As I said above earlier when times are tough for companies they just shred and cut loose employees in the blink of an eye regardless of their families, mortgages, medical bills etc yet the directors and CEO’s collect their huge bonuses and take no pay cuts so dont blame the little guy for looking after himself.
Pilots never made the rules but are entitled to play by them, it works both ways.
Snr
It may seem fair but in the grand scheme of things when there is a downturn and money is tight will the company honour the agreement they signed with you when they employed you, most likely not.
To them it’s just business and you knew the risks of becoming a pilot in a very volatile industry. In other words they are looking after their best interests and the company.
Well a pilots company is himself and his family. When opportunity arrives to look after their best interests they like the company have every right to do so.
You can’t bring the moral argument against the pilot but not the company when they let people go for business reasons, works both ways.
Your company does not charge newly hired inexperienced guys because they cannot afford to hire the typed experience guys so they really have no choice as they can’t get pilots otherwise.
So factor in ALL COSTS including a type rating before hiring in the event you lose a guy early but if your T&C’s are good enough 95% will prolly do their 3 years as they know they need proper experience before going anywhere else like a major airline.
Imagine I open a Sushi restaurant and I tell the chef I’m bonding him for 3 years for using the kitchen because he has no real world experience and I put him thru a specialized Japanese sushi course.
I chose to open the restaurant knowing the risks involved and am responsible for factoring in all costs. It’s not the chefs fault I go bankrupt because I did not hire or could not afford an experienced Sushi chef so went the cheap route and got an inexperienced guy..
Then Gordon Ramsay opens up across the road and with a lot more money offers this guy a job in a restaurant that is going to do wonders for his career and he takes it because he is married and has 2 small children to support.
Can you really blame the young chef for grabbing a once in a lifetime opportunity.
The end result for the first restaurant owner all boils down to the fact he never factored in the costs of doing business and what happens if he loses his chef. Knowing this if your argument is well it’s then too risky to give these young guys a chance then hire experienced guys but be prepared to stump up the cash and good benefits.
Either way it’s going to cost you and you still need to factor in all of these expenses. Pay for type ratings with lower salaries or get experienced typed guys and end up paying a lot higher salaries (more than the cost of a TR) but either way....
It is the cost of doing business and there is no way around it.
Your business costs are not the responsibility of the pilot nor are they his concern. You knew the risks and if you could not afford it or never planned properly that is your problem and yours alone. It is simply business.
It may seem fair but in the grand scheme of things when there is a downturn and money is tight will the company honour the agreement they signed with you when they employed you, most likely not.
To them it’s just business and you knew the risks of becoming a pilot in a very volatile industry. In other words they are looking after their best interests and the company.
Well a pilots company is himself and his family. When opportunity arrives to look after their best interests they like the company have every right to do so.
You can’t bring the moral argument against the pilot but not the company when they let people go for business reasons, works both ways.
Your company does not charge newly hired inexperienced guys because they cannot afford to hire the typed experience guys so they really have no choice as they can’t get pilots otherwise.
So factor in ALL COSTS including a type rating before hiring in the event you lose a guy early but if your T&C’s are good enough 95% will prolly do their 3 years as they know they need proper experience before going anywhere else like a major airline.
Imagine I open a Sushi restaurant and I tell the chef I’m bonding him for 3 years for using the kitchen because he has no real world experience and I put him thru a specialized Japanese sushi course.
I chose to open the restaurant knowing the risks involved and am responsible for factoring in all costs. It’s not the chefs fault I go bankrupt because I did not hire or could not afford an experienced Sushi chef so went the cheap route and got an inexperienced guy..
Then Gordon Ramsay opens up across the road and with a lot more money offers this guy a job in a restaurant that is going to do wonders for his career and he takes it because he is married and has 2 small children to support.
Can you really blame the young chef for grabbing a once in a lifetime opportunity.
The end result for the first restaurant owner all boils down to the fact he never factored in the costs of doing business and what happens if he loses his chef. Knowing this if your argument is well it’s then too risky to give these young guys a chance then hire experienced guys but be prepared to stump up the cash and good benefits.
Either way it’s going to cost you and you still need to factor in all of these expenses. Pay for type ratings with lower salaries or get experienced typed guys and end up paying a lot higher salaries (more than the cost of a TR) but either way....
It is the cost of doing business and there is no way around it.
Your business costs are not the responsibility of the pilot nor are they his concern. You knew the risks and if you could not afford it or never planned properly that is your problem and yours alone. It is simply business.
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The airline guarantees your employment for the 3 years (and longer) - of course potential redundancy is a threat for any airline employee outwith a legacy carrier, but in my 5 years no-one has been forced to leave the company for anything other than misconduct.
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TinFoilhat2What you are asking is not really the point of this thread. I can't say what my company offers for TR pilots as we don't get them that often, but I would imagine there would be a negotiation on the cost and length of the bond if you are already rated. Either way - this thread is about whether you can/should break a Training Bond. Get your job offer, and associated bond conditions, and make your choice. If you aren't happy joining a company and being bonded, then look for a job elsewhere. If you sign on the dotted line, then see through your agreed term, or repay what you owe. It's that simple.
As for a few of your other points. You must not be up to date on the current industry recruitment, because every major airline is hiring pilots with low hours. A selection of carriers that have taken 500-1000 hour FO's from my airline in the past few years - BA, Air France, Tui, Jet2, EZY, Ryanair, Thomas Cook, Iberia, Air Baltic, Swiss, Are Lingus, Condor, Cargolux. So that's 6 months to a year before they can leave for pastures new.
Comparing a professional pilot and an airline to a chef is absurd. If a restaurant had to pay £15,000 to train the chef in his sashimi course, as well as pay his wages for 3 months before they see any return, I can guarantee they would made to sign a bond as well. Or asked for it upfront....
As for a few of your other points. You must not be up to date on the current industry recruitment, because every major airline is hiring pilots with low hours. A selection of carriers that have taken 500-1000 hour FO's from my airline in the past few years - BA, Air France, Tui, Jet2, EZY, Ryanair, Thomas Cook, Iberia, Air Baltic, Swiss, Are Lingus, Condor, Cargolux. So that's 6 months to a year before they can leave for pastures new.
Comparing a professional pilot and an airline to a chef is absurd. If a restaurant had to pay £15,000 to train the chef in his sashimi course, as well as pay his wages for 3 months before they see any return, I can guarantee they would made to sign a bond as well. Or asked for it upfront....
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Hi guys,
I have a situation that could use a little help/guidance.
I work with RYR.
When I joined as cadet they asked for 5 grand up front and a 20k bond reducing over five years.
I needed a job, I signed...
With Covid hitting, the finances a going down the drain, I had to change to part time because they unilateraly changed the roster and is not commuting compatible anymore.
I have an other opportunity with a company but I still have this bond pending.
Couple of questions:
Does the fact that the actual conditions are completely different than the conditions when you signed voids the bond (or makes it disputable)?
Is 25 000 eur considered fair for TR737? (with no transport/accomodation etc paid for)
Does anyone have any story or experience in breaking a bond with ryr to know how they proceed?
To be fair, if they ask I will most likely pay my bond and swallow the pill. It just feels really bad having to pay these guys after such a hard time and work in their ranks with reality far from what they promised.
I am not looking for an opinion on whether or not it is honorable, that decision and consequences rests with me.
I have a situation that could use a little help/guidance.
I work with RYR.
When I joined as cadet they asked for 5 grand up front and a 20k bond reducing over five years.
I needed a job, I signed...
With Covid hitting, the finances a going down the drain, I had to change to part time because they unilateraly changed the roster and is not commuting compatible anymore.
I have an other opportunity with a company but I still have this bond pending.
Couple of questions:
Does the fact that the actual conditions are completely different than the conditions when you signed voids the bond (or makes it disputable)?
Is 25 000 eur considered fair for TR737? (with no transport/accomodation etc paid for)
Does anyone have any story or experience in breaking a bond with ryr to know how they proceed?
To be fair, if they ask I will most likely pay my bond and swallow the pill. It just feels really bad having to pay these guys after such a hard time and work in their ranks with reality far from what they promised.
I am not looking for an opinion on whether or not it is honorable, that decision and consequences rests with me.
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I have no idea about how FR will proceed if you skip your bond, although I guess they will be very careful to not give the image that skipping a bond doesn't come with consequences.
But I can tell you, based on my own experience, that not having a release letter from one of your previous employers, and/or not having proof that one has fulfilled the contract with all the penalties carried, is going to make you passing an interview very difficult in the next few years, whether you are in the right or not. You could get away with it if it was a small company or an operator that nobody has heard about. But you'll find out (and if you joined FR as a cadet, then FR was your first employer) that everybody knows everybody in the aviation business, that most guys interviewing you will know exactly what were the terms you signed with FR and will be expecting a release letter or a recommendation letter, and that it will be very easy for any management pilot to just lift the phone (or switch on whataspp), contact his bro with whom he did his initial training with, throw him your name, and find out if you can be trusted or not, given your past behaviour. And that is exactly what they will do, they will not give a rat's ass about your reasons and the circumstances that made you not fulfill your contract.
25k EUR is an eye watering sum to give away nowadays, but it might be the difference between you getting that job at home that you are so desperate in need of, or just burning a bridge with yet another employer for the foreeseable future.
But I can tell you, based on my own experience, that not having a release letter from one of your previous employers, and/or not having proof that one has fulfilled the contract with all the penalties carried, is going to make you passing an interview very difficult in the next few years, whether you are in the right or not. You could get away with it if it was a small company or an operator that nobody has heard about. But you'll find out (and if you joined FR as a cadet, then FR was your first employer) that everybody knows everybody in the aviation business, that most guys interviewing you will know exactly what were the terms you signed with FR and will be expecting a release letter or a recommendation letter, and that it will be very easy for any management pilot to just lift the phone (or switch on whataspp), contact his bro with whom he did his initial training with, throw him your name, and find out if you can be trusted or not, given your past behaviour. And that is exactly what they will do, they will not give a rat's ass about your reasons and the circumstances that made you not fulfill your contract.
25k EUR is an eye watering sum to give away nowadays, but it might be the difference between you getting that job at home that you are so desperate in need of, or just burning a bridge with yet another employer for the foreeseable future.
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I contacted a guy from the union yesterday and he gave me the same answer as you did. And it makes sense.
They tend to drop the bonds when they are letting go of pilots but I guess that is not the case nowadays.
They tend to drop the bonds when they are letting go of pilots but I guess that is not the case nowadays.
I remember a very long time ago the chap who did the recruitment at Elan Air in East Midlands went after through the courts a pilot who left early for the balance of his bond. I was always led to believe that training costs were tax deductible to the company but I cannot remember how this particular issue was resolved.
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