EK versus BA
I REALLY SHOULDN'T BE HERE
I know lots of guys who have come from ME to work in the UK. The only ones I know going outbound to the ME are either inexperienced or looking to get some time on heavies. Of those I know who have gone to work for Emirates, about 80% have returned within five years. Neither job is perfect.
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Currently flying the 777 in South America no family at this stage and looking for a change to either head back to Europe and be close to home (I would not commute to mainland Europe just remain in the Uk) or try emirates. The starting salary after tax at BA is 4300 I believe (basic salary + flying pay), does anyone have any figures as to what I could expect that to be 5, 10 and 15 years in as a 777 FO and what a year 1 captain would earn on the 777 (I know it takes a long time to get there)? Emirates of course pays quite a bit more.
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IF you find sarcasm, you may keep it.
If just money is what counts - go for gods sake to China. EK is "in between" and for this reason not really worth anymore a shot.
In a nutshell - money - Asia.
Employment laws, long term plans, retirement security(as far as possible on this world) - Europe, your case UK(that history still needs to proof that Brexit was such a wise idea, but somehow they will still survive. They always did. For sure it will not get better, even that some populists trying to sell that to the masses).
Good luck with your decission.
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EK for sure. Take the money and an upgrade and do your 5 years. Be way ahead of where you would have been in BA, plus have international 777 PIC time within 5 years as well as a lot more money.
Then leave EK and use that experience to join a European operator and get the lifestyle, labour law protection, QOL and so forth. BA is 20 years to command plus a lot less money and things are going downhill there fast...
Then leave EK and use that experience to join a European operator and get the lifestyle, labour law protection, QOL and so forth. BA is 20 years to command plus a lot less money and things are going downhill there fast...
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fair point about BA pay scale sliding across with time served... But the figure you quote is from the 24 pay point scale which closed to new joiners in 2012. The new figures for command at 21 years are £137k LH (£121k SH).
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EK for sure. Take the money and an upgrade and do your 5 years. Be way ahead of where you would have been in BA, plus have international 777 PIC time within 5 years as well as a lot more money.
Then leave EK and use that experience to join a European operator and get the lifestyle, labour law protection, QOL and so forth. BA is 20 years to command plus a lot less money and things are going downhill there fast...
Then leave EK and use that experience to join a European operator and get the lifestyle, labour law protection, QOL and so forth. BA is 20 years to command plus a lot less money and things are going downhill there fast...
Couldn’t disagree more. International PIC time - that’ll be well useful when you come back in 5 years time for your DEC at Ryanair, easyJet or any other SH loco. That’s if you can afford to come back at all and take a pay cut.
Go to BA, long term stability .
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You would have saved a ton more money so of course you can come back. You would take a pay cut but if you had joined BA you would have thrown away hundreds of thousands over 5 years simply by joining them, not upgrading and paying lots of taxes
You could join a legacy or LoCo in Europe either as a DEC or at the very least an SFO with quick upgrade and still earn decent money plus have the benefits of a European lifestyle.
To say join BA for the long term stability is simply plain stupid!! Junior pilots have no stability, terrible rosters, fatigued all the time, no weekends off, not seeing the wife and kids and all for the pleasure of paying taxes and earning far less money...
Enjoy the 'LONG TERM STABILITY'
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I understand it may be worth doing 5-10 years at EK, earning good money while living somewhere tolerable, unlike China, then return to Europe in a much better position financially and then join BA, EZY, etc. and be able to fly for the enjoyment of it with no mortgage etc worries, then calling it quits aged 50. Going to BA, although there are benefits, I guess means going to 65 . The worry with EK is horrific rosters but from what people are saying on these forums are they much worse than being at the bottom of the seniority list at BA?
Last edited by aaa333; 9th Jun 2019 at 15:29.
Where would you come back to in Europe after your 5 years in EK? Why not just join them in the first place?
I would suspect that if you go to EK, you would find it hard to leave, being trapped by the lifestyle and the money, or the kids subsidised education. I know a few pilots that have followed the well trodden path to the ME. They hate it but the wives and kids love it. No prizes for guessing who is doing all the work, and who is doing all the living.
I would suspect that if you go to EK, you would find it hard to leave, being trapped by the lifestyle and the money, or the kids subsidised education. I know a few pilots that have followed the well trodden path to the ME. They hate it but the wives and kids love it. No prizes for guessing who is doing all the work, and who is doing all the living.
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Of course it will be useful. You dont have to join a LoCo but they will still respect your time and experience. What do you mean..,Thats if you can afford to come back'?
You would have saved a ton more money so of course you can come back. You would take a pay cut but if you had joined BA you would have thrown away hundreds of thousands over 5 years simply by joining them, not upgrading and paying lots of taxes
You could join a legacy or LoCo in Europe either as a DEC or at the very least an SFO with quick upgrade and still earn decent money plus have the benefits of a European lifestyle.
To say join BA for the long term stability is simply plain stupid!! Junior pilots have no stability, terrible rosters, fatigued all the time, no weekends off, not seeing the wife and kids and all for the pleasure of paying taxes and earning far less money...
Enjoy the 'LONG TERM STABILITY'
You would have saved a ton more money so of course you can come back. You would take a pay cut but if you had joined BA you would have thrown away hundreds of thousands over 5 years simply by joining them, not upgrading and paying lots of taxes
You could join a legacy or LoCo in Europe either as a DEC or at the very least an SFO with quick upgrade and still earn decent money plus have the benefits of a European lifestyle.
To say join BA for the long term stability is simply plain stupid!! Junior pilots have no stability, terrible rosters, fatigued all the time, no weekends off, not seeing the wife and kids and all for the pleasure of paying taxes and earning far less money...
Enjoy the 'LONG TERM STABILITY'
long term stability ? Yes , I know those at the bottom end of the seniority is pretty tough but simply I mean BA are STILL HERE and probably would be for the duration of someone’s career. Why the hell work somewhere you don’t like for five years to get experience, you don’t need, to do a job that may not exist.
And “ not afford to come back “, I know several guys who went out years ago and now they are examiners etc can not afford the packages on offer in Europe - it’s a big pay and lifestyle cut mainly due all the subsidised add ons I believe .
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Interesting discussion. I'll add a few points.
When you guys compare work in the ME, with for example EK vs loco / legacy in Europe, don't forget that Dubai has gotten seriously expensive over the past 10 years while salaries have been more or less frozen. Subsidized education? Well, in many cases the school allowance often doesn't cover 100% of the fees. In Europe education is "free" (paid for by your tax) and in most countries education is still offered at a pretty good standard, obviously varying with country and where you decide to live. Buying / owning property in Dubai (and ME in general) can be extremely dodgy and loads of expats have lost considerable amounts of money in Dubai. No need to pay ridiculously high utility bills in most of Europe to cover for aircon when its 40+ degrees outside. Planning on renting instead? Expect rent to go up faster than your pay is and with no reason for landlord to explain or justify anything. Have you ever gone food shopping in Dubai? Ordered a beer or 5? It's crazy expensive. I could go on and on.
My point is, taking home €8500-€10.000 (net) per month working for a loco in Europe is probably not a bad thing.
On a different note, I was surprised to see how low the basic pay is in BA for LH/SH basic pay after 20+ years, I thought it would be at least close to 200k on LH and 160k or so on SH.
CP
When you guys compare work in the ME, with for example EK vs loco / legacy in Europe, don't forget that Dubai has gotten seriously expensive over the past 10 years while salaries have been more or less frozen. Subsidized education? Well, in many cases the school allowance often doesn't cover 100% of the fees. In Europe education is "free" (paid for by your tax) and in most countries education is still offered at a pretty good standard, obviously varying with country and where you decide to live. Buying / owning property in Dubai (and ME in general) can be extremely dodgy and loads of expats have lost considerable amounts of money in Dubai. No need to pay ridiculously high utility bills in most of Europe to cover for aircon when its 40+ degrees outside. Planning on renting instead? Expect rent to go up faster than your pay is and with no reason for landlord to explain or justify anything. Have you ever gone food shopping in Dubai? Ordered a beer or 5? It's crazy expensive. I could go on and on.
My point is, taking home €8500-€10.000 (net) per month working for a loco in Europe is probably not a bad thing.
On a different note, I was surprised to see how low the basic pay is in BA for LH/SH basic pay after 20+ years, I thought it would be at least close to 200k on LH and 160k or so on SH.
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I‘d suggest you ask the guys in the Middle East thread. Keep in mind the tractor is shiny at EK, but the roosters are terrible. Fatigued is a big issue and DXB isn‘t a cheap place.
there is a reason why EK lowerd the bar. A lot of good guys left the sandpit
there is a reason why EK lowerd the bar. A lot of good guys left the sandpit
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I never wanted "to turn back time" and felt sorry for leaving the middle east. God no. Most likely the best decission I ever made in my work life leaving the ME.
Again - I wrote that already above - nowadays choices are, IMHO(of course), much easier then, let's say 15-20 years ago. It was still a good thing to go to the ME at that time(and even then I did not like it and left), or the SWIRE group for instance. Now all of them are of no interest for any experienced (european) pilot except you seek adventure of course, that is a different thing. But career wise, money wise, no way.
The new gold mine is China(that I would personally never touch), safe and good jobs are in the US(for their citizens, would never go over there as well with all their "legacy" bs(no offence)) and Europe(for us Europeans). Really simple nowadays I think.
ME might be still a good choice for pilots from the indian subcontinent, asia, africa(as it always was). Much money to make for them compared to their home countries with similar "benefits" on retirement and health care. Always a point of view what is good and what not.
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I understand it may be worth doing 5-10 years at EK, earning good money while living somewhere tolerable, unlike China, then return to Europe in a much better position financially and then join BA, EZY, etc. and be able to fly for the enjoyment of it with no mortgage etc worries, then calling it quits aged 50. Going to BA, although there are benefits, I guess means going to 65 . The worry with EK is horrific rosters but from what people are saying on these forums are they much worse than being at the bottom of the seniority list at BA?
WHY? There is not to much difference between China and the ME. Have been flying in both environments. I do not think one is better/worse than the other.
IF you plan to join BA, EZY do it NOW. They run on seniority. I fly for an other Euro Loco(which finally got an CLA and seniority slowly kicks in and it will be the same as EZY in a few years, e.g. some bases already full which was never an issue before the CLA) and thought about EZY(had the interview invitation already) - BUT - the base I want(LIPZ) is full. I am to old to wait somewhere else(and I have family, kids,....) till finally my base is availabe. Do that as long as you are young enough, get your seniority, choose your base.
If you waste 5+ years with EK it will not be easier to join said outfits. And maybe by that time you might have family as well which would make it very hard "tramping" from base to base till you finally got the one you desire. Same with command upgrade of course. Not a factor in EZY but in BA.....
Think well....
Only half a speed-brake
China is a goldmine if you stay and dig. But the commuting contracts are interesting more IMHO. 3 wks / 3 wks (no other HOL) and take home 13000 EUR (15k US) after taxes and expenses. Depends on one's family background and situation, that could be a choice like no other.
To relocate and live-in, the likes of Visatara in India seem to be better. For the last 10 years, part-time at EZY seems to be the best - in hope for a neigh base for the final five.
At the beginning of a career, the choices are far more muddied. Pick one where they will train you well enough to be competitive on the open market.
To relocate and live-in, the likes of Visatara in India seem to be better. For the last 10 years, part-time at EZY seems to be the best - in hope for a neigh base for the final five.
At the beginning of a career, the choices are far more muddied. Pick one where they will train you well enough to be competitive on the open market.