Aviation jobs T&C, employment/self employment & national laws

[KT1988]

In order to have a thread dedicated to all airlines with employment and self employment contracts + national laws in different nations of the world I decided to create this thread in order to not litter airline specific threads with general terms and conditions discussion regarding all airlines and the different kinds of contracts you can get. I believe this is relevant for everyone whether they are already a pilot or just about to get all their ratings and look for an airline job.

In this thread we can go off topic into national laws, and all the other kind of stuff related without annoying anyone who is not interested to read about it. The discussion started in the Wizz Air thread and rapidly also involved LOT and Ryan Air Sun since they are already offering local contracts for companies. Contracts that are legal in Poland and many other Eastern European nations. In difference to what some people claim the EU can not create national laws or enforce stuff that is not signed by the member states and I believe in the future the EU will less and less try to force any state do to anything, because clearly voters in different EU nations wish to have sovereign nations since its not united states of Europe but a Union of independent nations to make flow of people and capital easier.

So my view is that its positive for pilots to get higher salaries and lower taxes and that it more than makes up for the minor risks a company contract differ with from an employment contract. I believe its also why many pilots from EU join airlines like Emirates all over the world because its profitable for the pilot and having a choice what kind of contract you wish is the perfect thing.

Let us discuss the different airlines and laws here so we do not litter all the other threads.

[Hawker400]

I believe this whole contractor deal is absolutely ridiculous and the same way that pilots can do away with certain securities for higher pay companies can race them a lot faster to the bottom and find employees who will accept the absolute least. I'm curious to see cases of this being challenged in EU court. Why would you work for a company if the only security you have is getting pay, and without throwing out names not even on the higher side?
I believe the SAIL SAS situation will be interesting to see how much strength unions have left in the rise of low-cost lowering costs era.
​​​​​

[KT1988]

@Hawker400: So why do you believe the company deal with invoices are ridiculous? The deal is that you are hired as a company and you will get paid more cause the company hiring you will not have to pay tax for you to the state, and you can pay less tax also. Why should it be ridiculous that pilots working for one company should be able to pay the same tax as 100s of thousands of other professions in that national state who deliver their work as companies. Why do you believe a pilot should have to pay more tax than for example a doctor does? Where is the logic that you should give more money to the government because you work for one company? So if the national law allows for it why should pilots miss out on their salary?

I believe everyone should have choice of how they prefer to be employed and what kind of risk they can take in exchange for a higher salary. Why should pilots from EU have to go flying in Dubai or other places in the world to get a higher salary instead of being able to choose a scheme with a higher salary here in Europe? And it is actually cheaper to have your social security fixed by insurance than by the state since the state use the tax to everything from fancy toilets to administration while the insurance company does not have to spend on so much different things. Just check the price for a really good insurance.

And for the last part that you speak about "can race them a lot faster to the bottom and find employees who will accept the absolute least" why would that happen on company deals rather than normal employment deals? If the companies could find people willing to work as pilots for almost no pay they can legally employ them as employees for like 2100 PLN per month in Poland or even less in different other Eastern European nations. So its definitely possible to "race to the bottom" with employee salary deals just if the pilots accept them. The only difference between company and employee deals are what you are giving away to the state in taxes both you and the company......

As for SAS SAIL I believe those rules there are different than company employment in Poland by LOT or Ryan Air Sun since its something like the Switzerland deal of Wizz Air?

[KT1988]

@2unlimited: Of course I am the same kind of company as a doctor who is working for just one private clinic and why should I pay more tax than the doctor if I am a pilot?

As for saving money.... the link you pasted is what we pay as a company in state insurance..... not what an employee have to pay. An employee have to pay depending on his salary and end up paying over 5x the social security amount for companies (the employer pay but then reduce the salary accordingly since he have to pay ZUS and not you)....... in exchange for nothing more from the state. So an employee get lower salary cause the employer have to pay even over 5000 PLN per month for social security and the employee need to pay 32 % tax instead of 19 % from which you can deduct your costs.

And you give numbers from the USA for private school, everyone in Poland also people having private businesses are already paying taxes for free schools for their children. Of course many send them to private schools but it does not even cost 1/5 of the US price in Poland. As for private insurance its definitely not 5000 PLN per month the amount is like 300 PLN per month and private accountant is 300 PLN per month I do know cause I pay it. As for pension the airline will provide you NO PENSION if you are employee in Poland..... man the pension you get or sick leave is from the ZUS you are paying. And pensions ZUS will give you will be like peanuts because its already almost bankrupt. As for sick leave a private insurance will give you a lot more than ZUS or the state ever would in case you have an accident.....

Oh and I do not believe everyone is draining THE STATE for money if there is a social welfare system in a country. I believe the are draining people like pilots, doctors, businessmen, carpenters, plumbers you name it, for money that they have to pay to fund their welfare and to fund state administration and the politicians. Poland have no welfare state cant you get it? There is no welfare state so you do not miss on anything if you are employed as a company. As for brexit feel free to vote for it, personally I would be happy if the EU turned back to what it was in the beginning just an economical union allowing companies to invest anywhere freely. Other than that before EU pilots in Poland was much more of an elite profession than today so it would definitely not harm us if all prices fell its only a problem for those who wish to work other places not for those who wish to stay.

Summarizing: The airline got a pot to pay salaries for pilots, this pot depends upon a lot of stuff including how many pilots wish to work there and how many they need. So if the company got for example 100 000 Euro to pay a captain per year then it will not pay 120 000 if they have to employ the captain as an employee. What will happen is that they still pay 100 000 just first they pay for ZUS and the rest goes to the captain who have to pay 32 % tax for it as an employee. If the captain gets employed as a company he still get the 100 000 Euro and pay just about 1300 PLN for ZUS per month plus pay 19 % tax and he can deduct his costs from this tax so real tax will be lower. Do you understand that it means the captain will get a better salary as a company? The airline is not going to pay 120 000 Euro just because they are forced to employ people they will pay the same as long as there is an equal amount of pilots who wish to work there. They will still pay the same and you just get less in your pocket.

And as for race to the bottom I already explained it can be done with employees on employee contracts even easier. Its all up to pilots what terms and conditions suit them and its not a employed / self employed thing. Forcing everyone to be employed you just rob pilots of their netto salary transferring it to the government of the state where they live or work depending on the law, nothing else happens.

[KT1988]

@2unlimited: The reason there is no welfare state is that it would totally not work in Poland no one in common professions would like to work (they would work of course just illegally while receiving the benefits) if they could just get money, 40 years of forced (not elected) socialism did the trick. Plus the politicians would just use the extra tax on more administration and building stuff by their befriended companies.

As for pension of course the airline can offer private pension packages. But as long as it does not have to (because pilots will not work there if not) it will not do it. And no it will not help if the state force them to it cause they will just deduct it from the salary and you are in the same spot. As for social responsibility, I am definitely not alone to believe private insurance gives you a lot more for less than paying tax. I do not want anything gone I wish that pilots get better contracts and that they shall be free to choose the kind of contract. For me a better contract is being employed as company and getting 120 000 instead of 100 000 Euro a so called pay rise. Than being employed and not getting more money but making the company use 120 000 without any benefit to me. As for the UK how do you know the companies do not give you less pay rise because they have to pay for the pension?

As for a country that today is the mightiest in the world and in the past it was almost perfect its USA. Not anymore but in the past when they saved the world from national socialists, and communist socialists and even before that. Once upon a time people there paid just value added tax and no tax on income. As for the insurance its not gonna cost more than the tax you would have to pay for it since the tax have to pay for administration and a lot of other stuff. And who told you the airline will pay you if you are on employee contract and get sick? Seriously what planet do you live on? Even in Norway the company pay you 16 days then its up to the state to pay you. And the state will not pay you more than 6G even in Norway with 47 % of tax on what you earn above 6G. In Poland the state will pay you much less. So insurance is actually the only option to get paid the full salary if you are sick.....

As for Poland or other Eastern European nations the point is relevant you are allowed to work for only one airline or company. They discussed to change the law but discarded it. Imagine how can you discuss changing a law to prevent something if the law already did prevent it? Seriously how can a parliament wish to make a change if stuff already was like they wished to change it into?

As for deducting expanses there is a lot starting with a car that you need to get to the spot where your contracting company wish you to work as a pilot, then fuel for the car, then payments for necessary insurances (yes your insurance from being economically responsible for a possible mistake is relevant to your job as a company as many others) payment for the accountant & lawyer, PC etc. itd. and most important of all for people who also invest. You can mix deductible things between everything you do as a company, so if you for example own an aircraft that you rent to some other company a flight school for example, then you can deduct expenses on this one from income you get at airline job etc. itd. And investing is definitely not forbidden not by Wizz Air or any other airline, so maybe its possible people at Wizz can not be part time FI but they can definitely own something they rent to someone I believe. And for example in LOT you are for sure allowed to be part time FI in your free time. So suddenly having a company helps a lot with everything if you have something to invest and do not spend everything you earn. For example when you buy another aircraft its an investment you can deduct etc. itd.

[KT1988]

@2unlimited: I believe you should have 100 % sick pay if you have paid your insurance if you lose your medical and that you WILL NOT get for your taxes even in Norway if you are an employee. The airline even in Norway will just have to pay first 16 days 100 % then you get maximum a salary of 6G that is about 50 % of a SAS captain salary even in Norway. So even when you pay 47 % tax from half of your income and 36 % from the rest the state will not give you 100 % sick pay. Do you really not understand? The insurance give you more than the tax even in a welfare state. Oh and the state require you to sit at home if you are to get sick pay, with insurance you can travel where you want if you periodically lose your medical (if you lose it forever then insurance will pay you a lot, while the state in Norway for example will pay you nothing if you do not accept their idea of you going to plumber school or carpenter school or becoming a truck driver whatever they invent for you and its they who choose).

My dream is that pilots can choose to be employed and pay high tax with a lower salary (because the employer have to pay ZUS or arbeidsgiver avgift or whatever is relevant in the country of pilots residence/work) and social security from the state or can choose to be employed as a company with low tax, higher salary no social security from the state but 100 % social security if they buy an insurance. A freedom of choice. While you wish everyone gets the same thing no matter what they wish themselves.

So what now is utter nonsense? Ask any company in Poland that help you do taxes and account for you and they will tell you everything I wrote about deducting taxes is true and they help you fix it if you have a company (and they are even responsible for you if something is wrong their insurance have to cover it).

[BarryMG]

Originally Posted by KT1988

@Hawker400: So why do you believe the company deal with invoices are ridiculous? The deal is that you are hired as a company and you will get paid more cause the company hiring you will not have to pay tax for you to the state, and you can pay less tax also. Why should it be ridiculous that pilots working for one company should be able to pay the same tax as 100s of thousands of other professions in that national state who deliver their work as companies. Why do you believe a pilot should have to pay more tax than for example a doctor does? Where is the logic that you should give more money to the government because you work for one company? So if the national law allows for it why should pilots miss out on their salary?

Yes, it's ridiculous that pilots working for one company should be paying more tax than 100s of thousands of other professions in that national state who deliver their work as companies - but not for the reason you mentioned, quite the opposite in fact. I have a surprise for you - those thousands of professionals do it illegaly too! The law is simple - if you work on your own account: you decide, when, where and how much you work, you use your own tools, and most importantly - you take the "business risk" - then you are a company, and you can be taxed as a company. If, on the other hand, you work for one (or even a few, doesn't matter) company regularly, on their terms, they dictate your hours, your schedule, etc. - then you are an employee and ought to have a contract that reflects that.

Actually the Polish labour law says that in such situation, if you meet the criteria for being an employee, it is an employment contract, irrespective of what it says on paper. That means that theoretically if anyone went to the court to argue that they signed a "contractor agreement", but in fact they were an employee, the court should rule in their favor. The problem is that nobody wants that, because nobody knows what would that mean for past taxation - if it would need to be paid and by whom. And that was the problem that you were describing with the latest developments in Poland - the situation has gone way too far, and now too many people stand to lose too much money if the law was suddenly started to be enforced.

Also, one more thing to consider - as an employee, you have a limited liability towards the company of 3 monthly salaries (excluding gross misconduct or willful damage). As a contractor - there is no limitation, that means if for example you damage the aircraft even accidentally (hard landing, runway excursion, not to mention an actual accident), you can be sued for the full amount - are you ready to pay a few millions if anything happens?

[IESS]

Good discussion, LOT seems to be profiting from this setup and there are no signs for a change in the near future.

What are your opinions about internationally available health and loss of license insurance?
Which ones you recommend and for what?

[KT1988]

@wondering: You hit the spot, if big companies do not have to pay taxes why shall pilots, doctors, carpenters, plumbers etc. pay the tax for politicians who just misuse the money (if they give anyone social benefits it will not be those who actually pay the tax, they rather buy some votes by giving money to everyone also those who never paid anything) no matter what you throw at them. And the benefits you get from being employed in Poland or many other nations do certainly not match the money you will miss in lower salary or tax, its cheaper to buy insurance.

As for playing with globalists, you know actually that today every small business that exist have it much harder to survive against the big companies in the corporationist systems than in a free market capitalism. Because today the states are cooperating with the big companies passing laws (lobbyists) that suit them and are hard to follow for the small ones. The states even the USA actually use tax money collected from the small businesses and employees to bail out the big ones with loans or gifts if they are actually going bankrupt. So the small businesses today pay tax to help the big globalists actually. So in "Manchester capitalism" if it is laissez-fair capitalism actually the small ones would have better chances against the big ones without the state (politicians) helping the big ones. In a laissez-fair capitalism we would probably have already for example an airline owned by pilot investors (owning shares) for example it would take 20 pilots investing 300 000 euro each (loan cover the rest) owning one big aircraft, then going together with other pilots (to have enough to be able to buy enough aircraft to get a proper price for them) and have a pilot owned airline in which pilots fly for themselves. Its also possible with the system today but much harder since the globalist owned ones got the politicians and can get them to make such regulations and pass such laws that the pilot owned airline would not survive. Now we got very far off topic but if the big corporations would do better in a "manchester capitalism" we would have it already today (politicians are mostly in their pockets or so do I believe), but we do not cause then big corporations would have to compete on equal terms with everyone else.

As for LOT its because the stuff is legal in Poland as the law is today. Why on earth would politicians discuss changing a law and then discard it, if the law was already as they wanted to change it into?

@BarryMG: As for being prepared to pay for accidents the best thing is again getting insured (that insurance can be deducted from tax) against it then you can sleep well at night. Other than that I heard a story at the flight school about a LOT captain who punctured a tire during landing and had to stay much longer on the runway. What happened was not LOT wishing him to pay for the tire but Ryan Air to pay for a go around of their aircraft because the LOT one could not vacate the runway as fast. And actually after Ryan Air handed the bill to LOT they handed it to the captain but then "they woke up" and from what I heard the case was solved between LOT and Ryan Air (probably LOT did not want to pay for the go around but I do not know if it ended in court). Either way the captain did not have to pay (the go around did not cost millions so he would actually be able to pay for it also with 3 monthly salaries if he was employed), but I would definitely sleep better being insured. So my solution is insurance.

My point is that no national state not even Norway will ever give you the same benefits for the tax as you can get being insured. And the insurance will be lower than the respective tax. Example in Norway that everyone believe got perfect social security a captain earning 105 000 euro yearly have to pay 36 % tax from half of it and 47 % from the other half of it. So its a lot right? But if he is sick he get just the first 16 days 100 % from the airline, afterwards the state he paid the giant tax to will just give him 50 % sick pay because its limited up to 6G basic sick pay. So no matter how you turn it..... the solution is insurance and not more tax.

[SpGo]

Originally Posted by KT1988

If the captain gets employed as a company he still get the 100 000 Euro and pay just about 1300 PLN for ZUS per month plus pay 19 % tax and he can deduct his costs from this tax so real tax will be lower. Do you understand that it means the captain will get a better salary as a company? The airline is not going to pay 120 000 Euro just because they are forced to employ people they will pay the same as long as there is an equal amount of pilots who wish to work there. They will still pay the same and you just get less in your pocket.

All correct, but the money will be in the account of the company. How will the captain transfer money to his personal account without the taxman qualifying that as a taxable salary? The captain won’t be able to buy a house as he has no income....
All doable, but not as simple and cheap as you think and certainly not without risk.

[KT1988]

@SpGo: The captain is not having a shareholding company, he have single self employment company as is legal in Poland and can use his money as he pleases. The only expenses he need to document with an invoice are those he wish to get a refund of value added tax and get them deducted from the taxable income. It is a single person company not an SA or sp. zoo. and a single person company can of course invest like buying and renting aircraft or anything else it might wish to do.

@2unlimited: First of all I will give you exact numbers for insurances when I will get them when I will starting the job. As for know I know approximate numbers and they are much lower than the tax. And its even logical since tax have to be spent to pay for state administration, political expenses, buying votes, building fancy toilets you name it.... while insurance just need to cover what it insure and a reasonable profit to the insurance company.

As for a comparison between nations as I told you before everything Norway got is cause of luck and help from other states. Before World War 2 Norway was the poorest state in Europe even poorer than Poland (check the statistics in wikipedia or anywhere else) and were not industrializing like Sweden or Denmark (with exceptions like Hydro). During the war they were lucky that the national socialists did not feel like burning more to the ground than only Finnmark while they for example razed whole Poland. Then Norway was lucky to get Marshall help from USA, who could give this help because they had a different non socialist system and actually an economy that made it possible, instead of getting liberated by the Soviet Union and getting forced into socialism/communism (the Soviets were already in Finnmark so its a miracle they did not decide to "liberate" the whole nation). And in the end Norway found oil extreme amounts of it taken into account the Norwegian population. Yet you believe its not pure luck..... like winning in eurojackpot.

As for the salary comparison we are not comparing average salaries for everyone in the country, its Norwegian choice that they decide to pay like 50 000 Euro salaries per year for entry level jobs requiring no special education its part of what makes everything so expensive. Here we are comparing the situation for pilots who get paid well all over the world and do not need to work in Norway to be paid well just like engineers, IT programmers etc. Its about pilots and not factory workers here.....

For pilots the situation is as I said a SAS captain receiving 105 000 Euro (or more give the proper number if you think you know it) in Norway will pay like 36 % tax from half of it and he will pay 47 % tax from the rest of it. If he gets sick he will only get 16 days 100 % from the airline and then just up to 6G basic pay from the state so he will get just 50 % sick pay while paying the enormous tax. And if he is so unlucky to totally lose his medical then if he wants anything to be paid by the state he must accept whatever the state thinks he should do. They can send him to get CE license and drive a truck, but just as well they can send him to carpenter school or plumber school or whatever they see fit and they are the ones to choose. If the captain decline he get nothing.... With insurance he get a big sum of money in case of loss of license and can choose what he feels like doing next in the unlucky event.

So a Ryan Air captain getting almost 100 000 Euro including bonuses with a base in Poland will live like a king compared to the SAS captain in Norway even if the SAS captain earn 130 000 Euro with bonuses in Norway. And the captain living in Poland will not have the factory workers point at him as someone bad for having a "million lønning" and will not read in the papers that he deserve to be taxed to death with tax cause he dare to earn more than a factory worker. In Poland success is cheered upon and not envied by the society if you want to talk about other qualities of living. Also the state in Poland do not wish to control your private life like the state in Norway and put særavgift (special tax) on everything the state thinks you should not be doing.

As for LOT and Ryan Air Sun and Enter Air and also probably Sprint Air (I do not know what Wizz Air does with the Switzerland stuff) they are actually helping their pilots get the same polish deal as any doctor or plumber or carpenter etc. gets in Poland (while working for single private company) and to be able to keep more of their salary. Why should the airlines wish for their pilots to have worse terms than other people working in Poland? And why should pilots have to pay more tax than other professions?

PS. I do not know the Ryan Air Sun deal but LOT gives you a deal with guaranteed hours per month like 45 hours salary. And it is for companies also so you get paid during the winter, and if you fly for Ryan Air Sun and they let you fly 700-800 or even 900 hours per year as some people say. Then you get your salary just more in the summer and less in the winter but over all a Captain with all bonuses will get his about 100 000 Euro per year. And its really no matter when during the year (in Ryan Air) you get it...... unless you believe everyone is so irresponsible to spend everything he gets at once and never save money....

[KT1988]

@2unlimited: Why do you come up with Wizz Air salary when I told you it was Ryan Air captains who could get about 100 000 Euro with all bonuses on company contract ? Why divert into something I did not say? Because it does not fit into your view of the world ?

As for bending the law I can not imagine how your friend can earn 110 000 - 125 000 Euro per year and pay 35 % tax on this salary in Norway https://www.nordisketax.net/main.asp...or/eng/i07.asp the only way it is possible I believe is something like having 5 children etc. not living with him that he have to pay for or something like that....... so he can deduct it from the tax. The tax bracket is more confused now than it was when I lived there but looks like he still have to pay the same with such a salary per year. Before it was 36 % up to 536 000 NOK and then like 47 % for everything earned above that. In addition to that you have særavgift (special tax) on goods that the state believe you should not have like for example a car that is fun to drive. But they shall have support from me for the laws regarding sea and boats, all honor to Norway tax free boat fuel, boats for the same price as rest of Europe and almost free to do what you wish when on the sea.

Oh and I do not wish to start the great socialist off topic, but I do know national socialists are just a much more wicked and crazy part of the socialist ideology "tree" even if they did maybe murder less people than the communists I still find them even more crazy. And how can they not be socialists if they wish the state control the finances totally, more money to social security (only for those who are of their nation/race) and also the state to control totally the life of the individuals. Oh and they also thought about capitalists as the evil of the world just like communists did. Capitalism is the total opposite of any kind of socialism cause capitalism is total freedom and equality of rights for people of the whole world no matter who they are and where they come from.

As for all the personal stuff you write.... my family moved to Norway mostly cause my mother wanted to as a doctor in 1997 long before Poland was member in the EU. And Norway actually wanted doctors and invited them to come so it was just as much helping Norway get their health care queues lower in exchange for salary. I did not want to move (I was 8 then).... so when I was able to I returned home.

As for Norway well maybe the politicians were not corrupt because they did not have 40 years of forced communism/socialism to teach them how to? And its also just luck that Soviets did not wish to "liberate" Norway after getting Finnmark. And that the USA who so many in Norway do not like, gave free marshall help to Norway. Oh writing in the same way as you do I would suggest Norway pay their 2 % for NATO cause Poland is paying 3,7 % already (and its also much more in cash) or should the US just let Putin get the Norwegian oil platforms and fish their fish with their trawlers (cause clearly even the soviets did not wish the Norwegian mainland) ? Its that kind of funny nonsense you are writing........ Oh and BTW before you start telling me we should be afraid of Russia. We hated forced communism/socialism and NOT Russia (even Russians were suffering from forced communism). Russia today is a state with 13 % linear tax and foreign captains in Aeroflot do not have any bad conditions.... so no we are not scared of Russia only some politicians are for propaganda purposes. Personally I like both Russia and any other Eastern European nation.

As for leave and vacation imagine pilots in Ryan Air got 5 on and 4 off roster in addition to the vacation, and pilots in LOT get so much free time they have time to be part time instructors, or do a lot of other flying that they are allowed to with their contract (I do not know what Wizz Air require so do not come with Wizz Air does this..... and that... so every other airline do the same).

PS. So clearly if you got more salary and less tax you would not buy an insurance? And you would also spend every single penny and never save anything? I understand some people in the west got different mentality but seriously you do not have to spend everything you earn. In Norway they have a funny program called luksusfellen where they show how sometimes such mentality of spending and spending ends.

P.PS. Get insured from fatigue also and your problem is solved, still cost less than tax and give you 100 % sick pay.

[KT1988]

@2unlimited: Anywhere: PZU, AXA, Prudential, https://www.xinsurance.com/risk-class/pilot-liability/ for stuff like the liability (but from what I know no company have sued their pilots for an accident in Poland, only Ryan Air who sued LOT for a go around and first the captain got it but then LOT changed its mind and did the stuff with Ryan Air themselves).

As for what Putin would love I believe it would be to get a different form of EU including Eastern Europe with Russia in control and not annexation. But we go into speculative off topic again trying to figure out what Putin thinks, the terms for foreign captain at Aeroflot and Russian tax are definitely not bad. And as far as unions go we got a union with Germany, why being so afraid of Russia? People in Poland hated forced communism/socialism and NOT Russia (who suffered too from forced communism). But back to serious stuff about NATO and EU is that EU have nothing to do with NATO. And as far as NATO is concerned US think Poland is a great ally who pay 3,7 % BNP for NATO (according to Polish news) while Norway fail to pay the mandatory 2 % so I do not know who should be more afraid that US will skip helping them.

[flightbooking]

Originally Posted by 2unlimited

Let me suggest one thing, why don't Poland start paying some tax to rebuild their own country, and contribute to NATO for NATO protection, if not you can always let Putin take back Poland, as that is one of his many dreams.

Poland is one of the few countries that spends 2% of its GDP on NATO contributions according to the agreement. In fact spends more on this than Norway.

https://www.euronews.com/2018/07/10/...try-by-country

[KT1988]

@2unlimited: All I said is that captains in Aeroflot get good money and low tax. And yet again you tell me about all the people in Russia and not pilots. Its about pilot terms not what a factory worker get paid. Next thing will probably be how much a factory worker get in Dubai and not what Emirates pay pilots..... (only reason I would not like Dubai is because of having to live there in a big city surrounded by a desert while I prefer villages/towns in Eastern European countryside not far from the airport base).

As for insurance you can have sickness insurance and loss of license insurance. If you have papers from you doctor that you are ill and unable to fly then the insurance will pay you simple as that. If you are employed with no insurance you get some peanuts from ZUS in Poland when sick. So what is the reason to be employed if you do not get any benefit? Private medical insurance in Poland is like 300 PLN per month for the best package. And in case you got children you have to pay exactly as much for private school if you are employed as if you work as company. And the official school is not reserved for those who are employed only.

Ryan Air Sun is not giving a "better" deal than Ryan Air. It just do the same simple stuff as LOT which means no Switzerland or Ireland or other strange unnecessary scheme for company employment just a straightforward polish kind of company employment. Which means all the rules are simple as for LOT. And Ryan Air captains can reach 100 000 Euro per year on a company contract with all the different bonuses. I do also believe Wizz Air will soon give pilots in Poland the same option as LOT and Ryan Air and skip Switzerland since its not necessary to make such complicated schemes. Enter Air and Sprint Air do also give the simple Polish company deal for pilots.

[KT1988]

@2unlimited: Insurance companies get money from people who insure themselves. Imagine that most people are not sick all the time.... Just as cars do not crash all the time but people still pay for the insurance. Oh and Prudential for example is an insurance company that is worldwide not only for Poland, many other insurance companies that are worldwide insure people in Poland.

So tell me how do you think a state can pay social security for the people in exchange for tax income if the state have to also pay for politicians, state administration, collection of the tax, building fancy toilets etc. itd. magic? No actually the state take a lot more tax than an insurance company have to get paid since it only have to insure people and make a little profit for itself. Insurance is and will always be cheaper than an insurance through tax. Oh and insurance actually care how much you insure yourself for, unlike the state that give the same deal to everyone no matter how much tax they pay. So for example a SAS or NAS captain in Norway have to pay much more than a factory worker in tax but he get a worse deal from the state since factory worker get 100 % sickness pay (since he do not earn more than 6G) while the captain get 50 % all the time when the captain actually paid a lot more tax from the income above 6G....... It does not require more than a little logic to understand that insurance companies offer a better deal for a lower price (since they do not have the expenses a state have and do not have to pay for people who are not insured).

As for Ryan Air Sun I do know the reality and it is an employment on the same company deal as LOT does use that is local Polish employment as company according to Polish law (no Ireland, no Switzerland no complicated scheme). Same stuff as everyone from doctors to plumbers working for private companies in Poland can use. I actually spoke with an FO who works there (and is ATPL theory lecturer in free time) and I also spoke with a captain who works there. The same deal is present at Enter Air and Sprint Air from what I heard.

By the way how are pilots in Emirates or other places employed? I believe also as companies since they do not have to pay tax (or pay very low tax)..... still people travel all the way to Dubai to get such a deal and you say its bad for everyone..... Well why do they travel and work there then, its not like its entry level job to fly wide-body they are actually experienced pilots going there.... and in Poland I never heard any instructor (already flying in airlines) say he dream of Lufthansa or KLM but I heard some say Emirates would be perfect.

[Skornogr4phy]

I enjoy working for a company that pays me sick pay and pays me a pension, who I work for as a full employee. I enjoy living in a country that uses at least some of my tax to help those less fortunate than I am.

[KT1988]

@2unlimited: I will search for some of the insurance information that you ask about when I have time, I thought you wanted the name of insurance companies who offer that and wanted to check yourself the prices. The insurance is insurance in case you are sick and cover the loss of income while you are sick, if fatigue makes you unable to fly and the doctor will confirm it then it will also be paid as if you were sick. If you are not sick then you would not get paid even in Norway since you still need to get the doctor to actually check that you are sick. No one will pay you sick pay if you have no document from a doctor.

-You are medical insured already in Poland when self employed just as if you were employed since you still pay ZUS and have the right to use public hospitals, so the medical insurance you need is to use the private clinics who are better and its 399 PLN (less than 100 euro) per month: https://www.luxmed.pl/dla-pacjentow/...lych-i-dzieci/ its the cream of the crop and you even get private dentist included in the price if you need it (not even in Norway does the state give you dentist for your tax money).

-Private retirement pension its like 100 different companies that offer different schemes. I would advise you to make your investments and your very own private pension so put away money in the bank or on a fund like Skagenfondene etc. and when you get enough money buy an aircraft that you can rent, then another one, or you can buy flats/houses in Poland that you can rent but they are not as profitable as aircraft you can rent to flight schools for example or to people who wish to hour build. But if you want someone to do it for you then it depends on you how much you want to save for pension and what you expect to get. The pension you would get from ZUS if you were employed not as company would be some peantus either way so you are not missing anything when being employed as a company.

-And separate insurance a for total loss of license, I will check the price I remember to have seen an insurance company insuring you for 1 million euro in that catastrophic event of losing the medical license totally and forever. And this was even not very expensive of course you must give them you medical records so they can assess the risk. And the insurance sum get lower the older you get so they will not give you 1 million euro if you are like 60 years of age and got 5 left of commercial flying (except as FI since FIs can fly even past 65 with students) when losing the medical license forever.

-As for the price for private school for 1 child I have absolutely no idea since I have no children but I can check. Either way employed or not you get for free the national school so once again the employed ones do not get any benefit vs the company employed.




As for me LOT started with the new system to be more competitive on..... salary. Because now they can offer higher salaries to their pilots not having to pay ZUS and the pilots get a higher netto salary since they pay much lower tax and the minimum ZUS. The pilots lose nothing compared to being employed while they get more money. So maybe they did it to compete on salary with Wizz Air and Ryan Air I do not know. But pilots earn more than they would otherwise and they do not miss out on any social security from the state. They can still use national hospitals and still use national schools as if they were employed directly. The only think they miss is a peanuts retirement pension from ZUS when the get 65 years old and retire.

And once again its legal in Poland its the same scheme as doctors, plumbers, carpenters and everyone else working for single private company in Poland can get. And what dump working conditions..... I just explained to you they got better terms a higher salary both total and netto salary.

As for Ryan Air I can understand that people are not happy if they work for them as employee having to pay tax and in a high cost nation with high taxes. Their salary is maybe lower than NAS etc. But NAS have no base in Poland neither for employees or private contracts. And Ryan Air captain salary or NAS captain salary can not be compared to legacy carrier like Lufthansa where you have to maybe be FO for 20 years before you get captain. So ofc Lufthansa will pay more but how many years of work do the captain have left with the Lufthansa captain salary? And how many spots do they even have for fresh pilots at such legacy carriers like Lufthansa or KLM? Either way I did actually not hear any instructor at my school say it was their dream job in Lufthansa, KLM, BA they would rather go to Emirates actually.

Personally I prefer to have a base in Poland and actually as far as I know every single airline offer self employed contract in Poland (with exception of that strange Wizz Air contract both for employees and company employees trough Switzerland) LOT, Ryan Air, Enter Air, Sprint Air. And LOT are the only airline that also have wide-body aircraft for their more experienced pilots but recently they offer it also to direct entry pilots from outside the company who got proper experience (since it showed up some captains on the short haul fleet did not wish to be FO again on 787).

Either way the point is: that being employed in Poland give you literally nothing so pilots should rather press for higher salaries and terms into their self employment contracts. Like for example that LOT guarantee payment for minimum 45 flight hours per month no matter if you fly so many or not (of course if you fly more you get paid more) and all of this on a self employment contract without having to go the way around the state and paying extra taxes for.... nothing.

[KT1988]

@2unlimited: I am curious how do you believe it is working in your dream social security place with high tax ? Of course you need to go to a doctor and get a proof that you are fatigued for real before the state will start giving you sick pay, the same goes with insurance. Did you really believe people could just say "I am tired I will have 2 weeks extra holiday and let the insurance/state/employer pay" you must visit a doctor that its serious fatigue and to find out what is causing it because it does not need to be the job actually.

As for companies dictating terms, yes as long as there are more pilots who wish to work than the company need to fly their aircraft it is the airline market. And it can only change if more pilots leave than new pilots join (more important are captains since they are harder to replace). The state is NOT needed as a middle man. Why did LOT give pilots guaranteed hours per month without the pilots being employed if its impossible to get better terms without the state being the middle man according to you?

As for insurance I already told you it covers a lot more than the tax would cover and it is cheaper its simple logic. Seriously do you not understand that the state have to use the tax on politicians, administration, fancy toilets/buildings, bright political ideas like paying for modern culture that no one would pay a ticket to watch, you name it and the politicians are throwing your money at it already..... so how do you believe the tax can cost less than an insurance, where do politicians get money? magic and not pockets of everyone working?

[KT1988]

@2unlimited: I think you believe being employed give you the same rights as in Norway. I thought you talked about long term fatigue that you get sick pay for. While what you talk about is the Norwegian egenmelding that would make me never ever wish to be an employer in Norway (it actually happened in Norway that an employer took pictures of employee partying and drinking while on egenmelding in a pub, it was in the newspaper but the state did not care and he had to pay full salary so the employee could call sick and go drink).

Well imagine that if you are employed in Poland as employee and not company you do still have to go to a doctor there is no egenmelding in Poland and I believe very few nations got it. So being employed as employee in Eastern Europe is not being employed as employee in Norway do you not understand?

Its fun to watch your belief that being employed means the same as being employed in Norway. Recently someone wrote in wizz air topic that in Lithuania an employer can fire you and give you 2 weeks only.... and you still believe its worth paying tax to be employed in Eastern Europe?