Penny Finally Dropping at RYR???
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I wonder how much extra flexibility EASA FTL's as opposed to CAP 371 has given EXS. i.e continuous earlies, 10 hrs min down route, short notice lates to earlies etc. At least CAP 371 offered a modicum of protection as opposed to the "endeavour to " which EXS employs.
An extra aircrew manager will make no difference whatsoever nor will the "PLOG". Most Jet2 pilots know what the solution is and they either need to support that or stop complaining as individual's whinging and fatigue reports floating around like confetti have had no effect whatsoever to date.
An extra aircrew manager will make no difference whatsoever nor will the "PLOG". Most Jet2 pilots know what the solution is and they either need to support that or stop complaining as individual's whinging and fatigue reports floating around like confetti have had no effect whatsoever to date.
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Someone mentioned about days off in RYR.
For info it works out 188 days off and 177 working per year on a fixed 5/4 roster including 28 days AL (using the AL in the most efficient way and no standbys)
Also chatting to someone recently in J2 it sounds like they may be waking up to pilots and expensive 800s lying around during the winter and the fact the 800 can stretch its legs to far flung holiday destinations all year round if it had to. The days of a 500 hour a year low cost pilot could be a thing of the past. That wont help the hourly rate debate....
Especially as accountants run most airlines these days.
For info it works out 188 days off and 177 working per year on a fixed 5/4 roster including 28 days AL (using the AL in the most efficient way and no standbys)
Also chatting to someone recently in J2 it sounds like they may be waking up to pilots and expensive 800s lying around during the winter and the fact the 800 can stretch its legs to far flung holiday destinations all year round if it had to. The days of a 500 hour a year low cost pilot could be a thing of the past. That wont help the hourly rate debate....
Especially as accountants run most airlines these days.
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Someone mentioned about days off in RYR.
For info it works out 188 days off and 177 working per year on a fixed 5/4 roster including 28 days AL (using the AL in the most efficient way and no standbys)
Also chatting to someone recently in J2 it sounds like they may be waking up to pilots and expensive 800s lying around during the winter and the fact the 800 can stretch its legs to far flung holiday destinations all year round if it had to. The days of a 500 hour a year low cost pilot could be a thing of the past. That wont help the hourly rate debate....
Especially as accountants run most airlines these days.
For info it works out 188 days off and 177 working per year on a fixed 5/4 roster including 28 days AL (using the AL in the most efficient way and no standbys)
Also chatting to someone recently in J2 it sounds like they may be waking up to pilots and expensive 800s lying around during the winter and the fact the 800 can stretch its legs to far flung holiday destinations all year round if it had to. The days of a 500 hour a year low cost pilot could be a thing of the past. That wont help the hourly rate debate....
Especially as accountants run most airlines these days.
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Fastidious bob I don't think you find many HR departments posting on PPRuNe, they do read it but I don't think they actively take part in posting information. Jet2 are a great company to work for with regards to the day to day operation. They still have small bases where everybody knows each other. So more often then not you fly multiple times a month with the same crew and it is true that in the winter there isn't much flying to do. They are also one of the few companies who take direct entry captains (even though it is debatable if this is a good or a bad thing they need them). I hear you ask if it is so great why are people leaving en-mass? It is mainly as has been hinted before to do with the middle and top management, they run a true fear culture resulting in people being afraid to make decisions, at the same time they keep on telling the staff how lucky and grateful they should be to be allowed to work for them. "We are the UK's preferred airline to work for" was a quote from management a few years ago.
Pilots staying are understandably the ones who have their private life near the base and are settled there. At most of the J2 bases there are no other comparable jobs/companies or if there are they might have to start from scratch again at those companies, most won't be able to do so financially. It is those guys who come on PPRuNe defending how great the airline is to work for. It is mainly those guys who are trying to pretend to themselves and others that the grass is very green at J2 while every week colleagues are resigning and moving to the "big" jet jobs (as has been posted before bigger jets is what j2 management are telling the troops, why would somebody indeed leave the UK's preferred airline if it wasn't for that --> see Well Used his/her post #44 in this topic).
Pilots staying are understandably the ones who have their private life near the base and are settled there. At most of the J2 bases there are no other comparable jobs/companies or if there are they might have to start from scratch again at those companies, most won't be able to do so financially. It is those guys who come on PPRuNe defending how great the airline is to work for. It is mainly those guys who are trying to pretend to themselves and others that the grass is very green at J2 while every week colleagues are resigning and moving to the "big" jet jobs (as has been posted before bigger jets is what j2 management are telling the troops, why would somebody indeed leave the UK's preferred airline if it wasn't for that --> see Well Used his/her post #44 in this topic).
Last edited by Jet2_320; 31st Aug 2018 at 16:58.
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The only Jet2 pilots who think they work hard are the guys/girls who have never worked for any other airline. Maximum of 10 days flying a month for 4 months and between 2 and 5 days flying a month, for the other 8 months. Add another 3 days a month on average if you are on the 737. If you commute then the endless winter Standbys are obviously not for you, but the idea that a steady 5/4 roster is in anyway preferable to a roster where I have, on average, between 20 - 25 days a month NOT flying, is completely bonkers.
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Whilst I completely agree with your initial sentence whitemonk, I think your stats are a little off, particularly for 737 crew. In that regard Bam Thwok's post is much closer to the true picture this year, Captains have been hammered!
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Since the advent of the ridiculous EASA FTL idiocy no airline should be any more or less fatiguing than the other.
Your fatigue is in in your hands.
Your fatigue is in in your hands.
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To go back on topic and therefore ignoring all these Jet2 replies - I'd say keep a close eye on the newly announced Irish and Italian deals and ignore whatever proposals RYR come out with, at least until they are in effect. These upcoming deals should ideally give a clear idea as to what the intentions are going forward
I’m stuck in the RHS of bizjets (as we only fly 250-300 per year) and live near Luton so looking at TUI, Easy, Ryan and possibly Wizz as I need a stable roster and ideally chance of upgrading in the next couple of years.
I have 2800 hours.
Is LTN a likely base on joining Ryanair, what can I expect to earn (I’m used to a large flat rated salary rather than sector pay etc), and how long am I looking at before getting the chance to move to LHS?
Cheers
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I’m stuck in the RHS of bizjets (as we only fly 250-300 per year) and live near Luton so looking at TUI, Easy, Ryan and possibly Wizz as I need a stable roster and ideally chance of upgrading in the next couple of years.
I have 2800 hours.
Is LTN a likely base on joining Ryanair, what can I expect to earn (I’m used to a large flat rated salary rather than sector pay etc), and how long am I looking at before getting the chance to move to LHS?
Cheers
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FR vs LS
Sorry, back to the above arguement, however as I’ve worked for both airlines I feel qualified to add my tuppance worth. I left FR close to 4 years ago and joined LS as a DEC. I’ll attempt to add my perspective to both when addressing similar areas/issues.
1. I left FR primarily because I was based at a location that I didn’t want to be in and there was no clear end in sight. As publicised, there is no seniority list in FR (similar to Jet2). This is all well and good when it comes down to opportunities as each airline states that positions are available based upon merit and qualification. Relating to bases, Jet2 do have a list which pilots are selected from i.a.w the date that they request transfer (alongside their rank). This is visible for all to see at any one time.
In opposition, the only ‘list’ that FR had was one that management had access to. Base transfers were applied in a random manner and, from my experience, didn’t apply one iota of fairness. There was no time frame given and the only opportunity available to check your status was to phone some office in Stansted in the off chance that you could actually speak to someone who were responsible for transfers. Quite often, again with my experience, you were fobbed off and told to call back in a few months - that’s if you actually managed to speak to anyone in the first place. I will add that as a FO and as a Captain I never operated from my first choice base when in FR.
The process may have changed since I left however the base transfer policy is much more transparent in Jet2. I have yet to meet someone who has not been based where they need to be within their first 6-12 months. I’m not saying this is the universal rule however the airline seem very aware that it is a pointless exercise having people based away from their homelife for a prolonged period of time. In FR, they didn’t seem to care too much and only put emphasis upon it when attrition rates soared or when the requirement for DECs became priority.
2. Rosters. The fixed roster pattern in FR remains their golden goose. If you’re at your base of choice then they’re excellent. Week by week, they rotated early to lates and they were (again my experience from 4 years ago) exceptionally well managed with little to no changes. I flew 900 hours a year and even with ‘commuting’ I never felt fatigued. On that point, should you chose to ‘commute’ (in a lot of cases pilots have zero choice in this matter) then the roster definitely isn’t 5/4 regardless of what the airline states. That being said, roster management was excellent in FR.
Unfortunately I wouldn’t claim the same with regards to Jet2. As known, the pattern isn’t fixed. No big deal really (if you are based where you want to be) however there are too many issues that need addressing in this area to mention here alone. Fatigue can become an issue however in my opinion the airline does have quite a grown up approach to this through their FMS. There’s still quite a way to go here (roster management) especially as the majority of flying is compressed over a 5 to 6 month period. The winter’s remain quiet/quieter however the flying program is definitely getting busier in the low season. That being said, it’s nowhere close to FR’s overall winter schedule. With rostering, I do feel it is an area that Jet2 wish to address however the company’s success & expansion has blocked progress imo. I don’t foresee fixed rostering being an option in Jet2, certainly not in the summer. Again, my own outlook here.
3. Leave - in my time in FR this was atrocious however, reading from the above posts, it appears to have improved which is obviously fantastic. In Jet2 it is managed fairly and reasonably transparently. The problem is that summer or ‘peak season’ leave is restricted for line pilots (being a holiday airline). That being said careful manipulation of the leave system at the opportune time can allow for 10-14 consecutive leave days in summer for those that fly the line (i’m including LTC in this bracket as I understand they receive slightly greater entitlement). I can’t comment on FR now however when I was there the process was laughable. Has it consistently changed for the better? I genuinely hope so.
Package - in my experience, it’s superior in Jet2. Proper contracts, no pseudo employment bs, no paying tax here, paying NI there, no offsetting this and that because some guy in an accountancy firm in Dublin says it’s fine, no looking over your shoulder for the Revenue or HMRC at any time. Additionally Jet2 pay for everything, within reason, without excuse. Sounds silly but hotels, transport, uniform, medicals, sim sessions, airside passes, parking, pension, income protection cover and most recently medical care are all added universally. When I say ‘silly’ FR pilots will know exactly what I’m on about! I will add that staff travel (only available to ‘permanent’ staff) was much better in Ryanair. BTW I’m not talking about the FR ‘jump-seating’ policy here. Nuff said ;-)
Culture - both very safe outfits with very open training and reporting systems in my experience. Operationally, both are extremely ‘just’ & fair on the basis that you are both honest & forthcoming (as an employer should rightfully expect you to be). Overall Jet2 are much much easier to deal with, so to speak. There’s a lot more openness. In FR I always had the sense of intrepidation. Not with every department, but a general opinion that things could change with the stroke of a pen, and with very short notice! I observed some horrendous horror stories. The term ‘divide & conquer’ was also something that I heard a lot within my peers at FR.
With union recognition, maybe things will change for the better? I really hope so. However with the current upper management structure remaining in place, unfortunately I feel that this is unlikely.
In conclusion, I hope I’ve provided a fair & balanced synopsis. Both airlines have their strengths. For me, Jet2 wins it - but that’s me. They aren’t without their faults and they’d be first to admit this, however I haven’t regretted the move. I have friends in FR that would say the same there.
1. I left FR primarily because I was based at a location that I didn’t want to be in and there was no clear end in sight. As publicised, there is no seniority list in FR (similar to Jet2). This is all well and good when it comes down to opportunities as each airline states that positions are available based upon merit and qualification. Relating to bases, Jet2 do have a list which pilots are selected from i.a.w the date that they request transfer (alongside their rank). This is visible for all to see at any one time.
In opposition, the only ‘list’ that FR had was one that management had access to. Base transfers were applied in a random manner and, from my experience, didn’t apply one iota of fairness. There was no time frame given and the only opportunity available to check your status was to phone some office in Stansted in the off chance that you could actually speak to someone who were responsible for transfers. Quite often, again with my experience, you were fobbed off and told to call back in a few months - that’s if you actually managed to speak to anyone in the first place. I will add that as a FO and as a Captain I never operated from my first choice base when in FR.
The process may have changed since I left however the base transfer policy is much more transparent in Jet2. I have yet to meet someone who has not been based where they need to be within their first 6-12 months. I’m not saying this is the universal rule however the airline seem very aware that it is a pointless exercise having people based away from their homelife for a prolonged period of time. In FR, they didn’t seem to care too much and only put emphasis upon it when attrition rates soared or when the requirement for DECs became priority.
2. Rosters. The fixed roster pattern in FR remains their golden goose. If you’re at your base of choice then they’re excellent. Week by week, they rotated early to lates and they were (again my experience from 4 years ago) exceptionally well managed with little to no changes. I flew 900 hours a year and even with ‘commuting’ I never felt fatigued. On that point, should you chose to ‘commute’ (in a lot of cases pilots have zero choice in this matter) then the roster definitely isn’t 5/4 regardless of what the airline states. That being said, roster management was excellent in FR.
Unfortunately I wouldn’t claim the same with regards to Jet2. As known, the pattern isn’t fixed. No big deal really (if you are based where you want to be) however there are too many issues that need addressing in this area to mention here alone. Fatigue can become an issue however in my opinion the airline does have quite a grown up approach to this through their FMS. There’s still quite a way to go here (roster management) especially as the majority of flying is compressed over a 5 to 6 month period. The winter’s remain quiet/quieter however the flying program is definitely getting busier in the low season. That being said, it’s nowhere close to FR’s overall winter schedule. With rostering, I do feel it is an area that Jet2 wish to address however the company’s success & expansion has blocked progress imo. I don’t foresee fixed rostering being an option in Jet2, certainly not in the summer. Again, my own outlook here.
3. Leave - in my time in FR this was atrocious however, reading from the above posts, it appears to have improved which is obviously fantastic. In Jet2 it is managed fairly and reasonably transparently. The problem is that summer or ‘peak season’ leave is restricted for line pilots (being a holiday airline). That being said careful manipulation of the leave system at the opportune time can allow for 10-14 consecutive leave days in summer for those that fly the line (i’m including LTC in this bracket as I understand they receive slightly greater entitlement). I can’t comment on FR now however when I was there the process was laughable. Has it consistently changed for the better? I genuinely hope so.
Package - in my experience, it’s superior in Jet2. Proper contracts, no pseudo employment bs, no paying tax here, paying NI there, no offsetting this and that because some guy in an accountancy firm in Dublin says it’s fine, no looking over your shoulder for the Revenue or HMRC at any time. Additionally Jet2 pay for everything, within reason, without excuse. Sounds silly but hotels, transport, uniform, medicals, sim sessions, airside passes, parking, pension, income protection cover and most recently medical care are all added universally. When I say ‘silly’ FR pilots will know exactly what I’m on about! I will add that staff travel (only available to ‘permanent’ staff) was much better in Ryanair. BTW I’m not talking about the FR ‘jump-seating’ policy here. Nuff said ;-)
Culture - both very safe outfits with very open training and reporting systems in my experience. Operationally, both are extremely ‘just’ & fair on the basis that you are both honest & forthcoming (as an employer should rightfully expect you to be). Overall Jet2 are much much easier to deal with, so to speak. There’s a lot more openness. In FR I always had the sense of intrepidation. Not with every department, but a general opinion that things could change with the stroke of a pen, and with very short notice! I observed some horrendous horror stories. The term ‘divide & conquer’ was also something that I heard a lot within my peers at FR.
With union recognition, maybe things will change for the better? I really hope so. However with the current upper management structure remaining in place, unfortunately I feel that this is unlikely.
In conclusion, I hope I’ve provided a fair & balanced synopsis. Both airlines have their strengths. For me, Jet2 wins it - but that’s me. They aren’t without their faults and they’d be first to admit this, however I haven’t regretted the move. I have friends in FR that would say the same there.
Last edited by Callsign Kilo; 3rd Sep 2018 at 20:23.
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Callsign Kilo seems to have managed to convey what I was trying to say based on the anecdotes that I have heard from the numbers coming from FR to Jet2.
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If you are an FO then any UK base really should be ok.
Wizz could be an option at LTN?