FO‘s expectations of a new Captain

[parabellum]

Ennie takes the cigar. The physical transition RHS to LHS is nothing more than a simulator exercise, but the mental transition I have seen to be a big 'gotcha'. Suddenly realising that all around you things are starting to go wrong and those present are looking at you to evaluate, allocate priorities, call for the appropriate check lists, nominate the correct place to land, allowing for any reduced performance and then to sort it all out can come as a big shock to some, the longer in the RHS the bigger the shock in my experience.

[VinRouge]

As an experienced captain, all I want to hear from the RHS is Gear Up, nice landing Captain and the fat bird is mine.....

[Emma Royds]

Originally Posted by 73qanda

If we get vectors off track and VNAV is sucking they remind me which one of those stupid old modes will work until ATC stop mucking us up. Basically, I like flying with the smart ones.
Andrew, 24

Sounds like you fly the 737?

[Black Pudding]

Originally Posted by zero/zero

If they’re expecting encyclopaedic knowledge of the OMB, there’s no reason why a good Captain shouldn’t brush up on the latest Love Island gossip in return.

Oh, and stop asking for how much fuel the FO would like to take if you’re just going to use the one that’s in your head anyway...

The Captains is responsible for the cost of the operation. The hardest thing I have to deal with is trying to convince the FO without pissing them off, that we really don't need to take more than flight plan fuel when he/she asks to take more for no apparent reason.

I give the FO the respect they deserve. All I ask is they turn up early, look smart with your jacket buttoned up, be prepared and understand the task in hand which is to get from A to B and back without any problems. If I think the destination is ok for them to fly it there, I offer them the outbound leg. I let them choose first what they want to eat, I'll eat whatever is left. I let them fly it and say nothing unless I absolutely have to. I remember my 8 years in the RHS. 3 years now in the LHS. You may think sitting in the LHS is easy with regards who you will fly with, it's not.

[73qanda]

All I ask is they turn up early

Why? I maximise my rest time and arrive at sign on time.

The Captains is responsible for the cost of the operation. The hardest thing I have to deal with is trying to convince the FO without pissing them off, that we really don't need to take more than flight plan fuel when he/she asks to take more for no apparent reason.

Everyone assesses risk differently. If my f/o wants more gas than me I take it as long as it doesn’t prevent us getting the FL I want or push us over a landing weight I think is sensible for the runway at destination.Sounds like your F/o’s are more conservative than you. Such is life, just don’t cock it up or you’ll waste all your savings in one day

[Black Pudding]

Originally Posted by 73qanda

Sounds like your F/o’s are more conservative than you.

Any possibility you could explain how you come to that assumption

If my f/o wants more gas than me I take it as long as it doesn’t prevent us getting the FL

If your FO wants to take an extra tonne for not apparent reason, you would take it ?

[zero/zero]

Originally Posted by Black Pudding

If your FO wants to take an extra tonne for not apparent reason, you would take it ?

Since part of the job of a Captain is to develop and teach the FOs, why not take it and use it as a learning point (with the caveats listed above)?

After landing look at the fuel and debrief. If he/she has more than the tonne remaining then congratulate them on managing their energy well and discuss whether if it was necessary to take the extra gas. If less, why was that? what could be done differently? Or was it a good decision to carry extra.

Depending on the sector and the tankering gain/loss, you may find the lessons identified may exceed the cost of the fuel and self-confidence. Just food for thought.

p.s. It’s not just trainers that can develop FOs

[Chesty Morgan]

So be wasteful as a learning point rather than explain why in the first place?

[zero/zero]

Originally Posted by Chesty Morgan

So be wasteful as a learning point rather than explain why in the first place?

So if the FO wants to start the decent 10nm earlier than you would have done, you presumably stop them and make them wait until your TOD? Or do you wait and then discuss later why they had to use V/S etc to shallow the decent later on.

Any fuel that you take above the OFP Fuel Req’d is only ever a best guess based on experience, but that doesn’t mean it’s an exact science... or that extra fuel would be listed as an OFP figure.

If you think you have the right answers all the time, you’re probably in the wrong job (not you specifically CM, just in general)

[Chesty Morgan]

Originally Posted by zero/zero

So if the FO wants to start the decent 10nm earlier than you would have done, you presumably stop them and make them wait until your TOD? Or do you wait and then discuss later why they had to use V/S etc to shallow the decent later on.

My TOD or the correct, most efficient TOD? What difference does 10 miles make anyway?

Any fuel that you take above the OFP Fuel Req’d is only ever a best guess based on experience, but that doesn’t mean it’s an exact science... or that extra fuel would be listed as an OFP figure.

Yes indeed. What’s your point?

If you think you have the right answers all the time, you’re probably in the wrong job (not you specifically CM, just in general)

Yes, indeed.

[Black Pudding]

why not take it and use it as a learning point

That says a lot about lack of professionalism and responsibility towards your employer. What do you think your pilot managers would think if they knew you were irresponsible enough to carry extra fuel to use as a learning point. It's a business, not a flying club.

[zero/zero]

Originally Posted by Chesty Morgan

My TOD or the correct, most efficient TOD?

That’s exactly my point, none of this is an exact science so there isn’t necessarily a “correct, most efficient TOD”. You probably don’t know how much of the STAR you’ll fly, whether you’ll get a shortcut, track extension, winds are only a forecast, when you’ll need EAI etc etc etc

Anyhow, that’s my last input

[Chesty Morgan]

Even less reason to descend early!

[Mach E Avelli]

I have long been an advocate of complete role reversal, though regrettably in the antipodes it is vigorously opposed by the old guard. But smart ar$$es who hover over the gear and flap levers or engage in urinating contests need to be pulled in to line. Prompting and pre empting is not CRM, though certain F/Os and indeed some Captains believe it to be so.
Constructive input from FOs should be encouraged, but the FO should never forget whose signature is on the release, regardless of relative experience.
The issue of an 8000 hour F/O paired with a 3000 hour Captain was not the original question. The ‘new ‘ Captain could be a DEC with 25000 hours new to the airline. But as it has been raised I would be interested in why the 8000hour person is still a F/O in today’s market, unless in a legacy carrier?

[RexBanner]

Originally Posted by Mach E Avelli

...shave or grow a beard (ladies exempt from both). Sloppy appearance equals sloppy pilot.

Sorry but that’s complete tosh. What is this, 1952 or something? I’m sure if you usually had a full head of hair but came in one day sporting the Ed Norton American History X hairstyle eyebrows might be raised at that. So why is that shocking on the top of your head but go a couple of inches lower and that’s the ideal? I’ll give you a clue why, because it’s all b*ll*cks.

Same as what I’ve witnessed in a previous airline where a grotesquely overweight base captain has marched over the apron to an otherwise immaculately turned out FO who happened to have some five o clock shadow to administer a b*llocking for his “appearance”. One has a bit of five o clock shadow the other is sweating profusely with stomach bulging out, shirt around the navel has a button unfastened because it can barely take the strain, who looks worse? I know the answer. The best Captain (CRM and handling) I ever flew with regularly came to work unshaven, reckon I ever raised an eyebrow?

[NLP]

I like the different comments about the “Captains letting the FO dig holes so they can learn” and the Captains are running the show also when it’s the FO’s sector. This the case most of the time but I have to say there are some exceptions when Captains aren’t running anything. I’ve seen some pretty poor performances from Captains where they lost their being in command due to actions like: not going around on an unstable approach, trying to cross red stop bars when I shout stop and they continue (incl lining up runways), or planning to take minimum fuel to a place with heavy snow. Just saying it’s not only FO’s trying to kill Captains.

The ones I really like is when they ask me to say silly things to ATC. Only recently: “Can you tell tower we would appreciate the first available airborne opportunity?” No, I will not tell tower Captain, we all want to get airborne ASAP..

[GlenQuagmire]

I am so glad I have never flown in the airlines. You lot sound like you are right on the edge of killing each other! All this bull**** about buttoning up your jacket and when you shave and over managing the poor bloke flying the plane.

There are two pilots up front in case one dies. Redundancy, same reason why we have more than one engine. I expect to go to work, enjoy my day with whoever I am flying with, probably spend a week in a hotel somewhere, do a bit more flying, have a chat about life at some point, and generally find a way to finish batting through 25 years of flying. Why do people try to make this job difficult! Go to work, dont be a cock, go home. Its reaaly really simple.

[RexBanner]

NLP the badgering of and backchat to ATC is one of the things I really dislike about our current employer, there’s far too many skippers around who try to do their job for them. As an ex controller myself it really gets on my tits, I always pretend I haven’t heard them and basically make them make the transmission themselves. And we wonder why we get a bad reputation in places like Dublin for instance.

[73qanda]

If your FO wants to take an extra tonne for not apparent reason, you would take it ?

That would never happen in my outfit. If the F/O wanted an extra tonne there would be a discussion, you know, like two professionals would have, it would go something like this;
“ why the extra tonne?”
” We’ll, with the single runway Ops here we might burn an extra 200 on taxi and then that jet will effect us if we don’t get our level, the other thing I’m thinking of is the delays into XXX at this time of day, we will probably get 20 mins hold and that would leave us with the low fuel lights on, I think an extra tonne is sensible”
” yeah ok, are there any fronts we need to clear?
” Nup”
” Landing weight good?”
Yup”
”ok, an extra tonne sounds good, how’s the wife and kids?”.

So all of these posts assume a 200 hour cadet RHS flying with a legacy captain.

Bingo.
Most of my F/O’s had turbo prop commands for years and have between 3 and 15,000 hours.
I might feel differently if I operated with a different demographic.The reality is at my joint that we pretty much agree within a few hundred kg’s 99% of the time. The $58 to carry the extra tonne doesn’t bother me too much and happens rarely.

[NLP]

Originally Posted by RexBanner

NLP the badgering of and backchat to ATC is one of the things I really dislike about our current employer, there’s far too many skippers around who try to do their job for them. As an ex controller myself it really gets on my tits, I always pretend I haven’t heard them and basically make them make the transmission themselves. And we wonder why we get a bad reputation in places like Dublin for instance.

Agreed Rex, luckily it’s a small minority who do it. And Dublin ATC is pretty poor