British Airways FO Short Haul Roster?
I won’t be asking you any. I’ll ask questions when the answers will actually help and/or affect the descison I need to make.
I remember doing my training and not having a BA job waiting for me at the end. Had that been the case I’m pretty sure the last thing I’d have been wondering was how often are they going to ‘make’ me fly!
Asking questions when any of the answers given here aren’t going to make any difference to a decision the OP needs to make is what I find pointless...
I remember doing my training and not having a BA job waiting for me at the end. Had that been the case I’m pretty sure the last thing I’d have been wondering was how often are they going to ‘make’ me fly!
Asking questions when any of the answers given here aren’t going to make any difference to a decision the OP needs to make is what I find pointless...
LH aircraft should be “unsuitable for first command”.
Anyhow I think that before my time there was indeed a rule of “first command must be in short haul” in BA - can anyone confirm?
Wiggy,
I can confirm. When Colin Barnes was DFO he insisted on it. It became 'over my dead body Barnes', that people would move seats in LH and have to go shorthaul first.
In my case(1988) I went from RHS 747 to LHS 737 and then back to LHS 747 all within 6 months as nobody else wanted to move. Friends who went onto the shorthaul Tristar for their first command (how does THAT work) were back on the 747 having spent so little time on the Tristar that they had been unable to give sectors away due to insufficient command time.
After that huge waste of money the system fell into disrepute and first commands were on any type.
As an aside, at that time the (new) 744 fleet was having a hard time recruiting experienced F/O's as they'd be frozen for 5 years and therefore miss out on commands due to the back to shorthaul nonsense. A small number (6?) negotiated a guaranteed (in writing) right to left command if they would go on the 744 - and that's what they did. The system fell apart about a year later.
S
I can confirm. When Colin Barnes was DFO he insisted on it. It became 'over my dead body Barnes', that people would move seats in LH and have to go shorthaul first.
In my case(1988) I went from RHS 747 to LHS 737 and then back to LHS 747 all within 6 months as nobody else wanted to move. Friends who went onto the shorthaul Tristar for their first command (how does THAT work) were back on the 747 having spent so little time on the Tristar that they had been unable to give sectors away due to insufficient command time.
After that huge waste of money the system fell into disrepute and first commands were on any type.
As an aside, at that time the (new) 744 fleet was having a hard time recruiting experienced F/O's as they'd be frozen for 5 years and therefore miss out on commands due to the back to shorthaul nonsense. A small number (6?) negotiated a guaranteed (in writing) right to left command if they would go on the 744 - and that's what they did. The system fell apart about a year later.
S
Wiggy ,
I confirm that back in the Trident days [ late 70's ] . 1st command had to be Short Haul . Some came kicking and screaming from Long Haul , and found they enjoyed SH . Some did not go back to LH , some hated it and returned LH asap . And some enjoyed their time and went back in the normal course of events .
Bit like the BCAL merger ; to keep command some BCAL guys came to Highlands and Islands [ Budgies and Parrots ] . Some really enjoyed it and fitted in well . Some hated it and FOIFP [ + off in fine pitch ] on the next Southbound Shuttle ..
Because [ of I guess costs of type ratings , freeze periods , and resentments ] that requirement of SH 1st disappeared .
Been gone nearly 9 yrs , so memory fades ... But it's really down to when your parents married and when you got on the seniority list of choice .
IMHO , enjoy whichever fleet you are on . They all have fun if you make it so .
Bid for command as soon as you are ready , leaving it late for lifestyle choices is folly . And can make it difficult , and if too late ; impossible .
Don't have LHR blinkers , there was [ and may be again ] BA aviation outside LHR . It was extreme fun and not lacking in remuneration .
rgds condor .
I confirm that back in the Trident days [ late 70's ] . 1st command had to be Short Haul . Some came kicking and screaming from Long Haul , and found they enjoyed SH . Some did not go back to LH , some hated it and returned LH asap . And some enjoyed their time and went back in the normal course of events .
Bit like the BCAL merger ; to keep command some BCAL guys came to Highlands and Islands [ Budgies and Parrots ] . Some really enjoyed it and fitted in well . Some hated it and FOIFP [ + off in fine pitch ] on the next Southbound Shuttle ..
Because [ of I guess costs of type ratings , freeze periods , and resentments ] that requirement of SH 1st disappeared .
Been gone nearly 9 yrs , so memory fades ... But it's really down to when your parents married and when you got on the seniority list of choice .
IMHO , enjoy whichever fleet you are on . They all have fun if you make it so .
Bid for command as soon as you are ready , leaving it late for lifestyle choices is folly . And can make it difficult , and if too late ; impossible .
Don't have LHR blinkers , there was [ and may be again ] BA aviation outside LHR . It was extreme fun and not lacking in remuneration .
rgds condor .
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Wiggy: no I think command time on a jet in airline ops above xx Tonnes would be fine. If you pass the course you meet the standard and have command experience too. There just needs to be some encouragement to move. Maybe that should be financial because part time LH pays nearly as much as full time command SH.
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Of course it’s entirely possible that the upcoming rationalisation of P&P could solve the issue.
Join on SH. One move to LH RHS.
Next move must be SH P1. Followed by one move to LH P1!
End!
That would save the frankly bizarre nonsense. Not to mention hugely expensive, situation of people flip flopping between the same seat on different fleets, as and when the whim takes them.
Some might say it’s an easy give? Common sense? Better than other cost saving options.
Join on SH. One move to LH RHS.
Next move must be SH P1. Followed by one move to LH P1!
End!
That would save the frankly bizarre nonsense. Not to mention hugely expensive, situation of people flip flopping between the same seat on different fleets, as and when the whim takes them.
Some might say it’s an easy give? Common sense? Better than other cost saving options.
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Some might say it’s an easy give? Common sense? Better than other cost saving options.
But it probably will rear it’s head as P&P costs are on the menu at waterside.
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Cost is king in BA now (and has been for some time). Right to Left on Long Haul saves the company a fortune. Why? Because the senior FO’s who are holding out for Long Haul command are pay frozen and junior bods go in as Captains on Short Haul thus artificially reducing the cost base on Short Haul. It is nonsensical to claim that right to left on long haul costs BA more, quite the opposite. There is no financial imperative for the company to change this one that is for absolute certain.
Plus in relation to Priam, realistically how many pilots ACTUALLY jump from fleet to fleet every five years? I would wager the number is relatively minuscule in the greater scheme of things.
Plus in relation to Priam, realistically how many pilots ACTUALLY jump from fleet to fleet every five years? I would wager the number is relatively minuscule in the greater scheme of things.
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I disagree Rex. Very senior shorthaul commands cost them money. A senior LH FO costs less than a draft trip a month short of a middle ground SH skipper. When you compare the two, what you want are junior SH skippers. Quite a few of our P1s are paid (a lot) less than EZ and RYR. Some FOs (LH and SH) are even going back. Granted, not in big numbers but the fact they exist at all is significant.
Fully understandable when it was 25 years to any command. There are some in the past couple of years who gained shorthaul LHR commands after 18-24 months (admittedly with previous command experience) so that perhaps changes the options. While there is an anomaly every few years (remember 7576 commands when it was retiring the first time!!), it may become the standard career for most (RHS then LHS SH, RHS LH then LHS LH - the US way really) - at which point, expect it to be fair game for the company to chase as it won't p!ss that many people off and it's significant to the bottom line. Demographically, we're sitting close to that position now - everyone senior enough for a LH command who wants one has got one, leaving those guys not senior enough who are "hanging on" a bit vulnerable....
Wiggy,
I can confirm. When Colin Barnes was DFO he insisted on it. It became 'over my dead body Barnes', that people would move seats in LH and have to go shorthaul first.
In my case(1988) I went from RHS 747 to LHS 737 and then back to LHS 747 all within 6 months as nobody else wanted to move. Friends who went onto the shorthaul Tristar for their first command (how does THAT work) were back on the 747 having spent so little time on the Tristar that they had been unable to give sectors away due to insufficient command time.
After that huge waste of money the system fell into disrepute and first commands were on any type.
As an aside, at that time the (new) 744 fleet was having a hard time recruiting experienced F/O's as they'd be frozen for 5 years and therefore miss out on commands due to the back to shorthaul nonsense. A small number (6?) negotiated a guaranteed (in writing) right to left command if they would go on the 744 - and that's what they did. The system fell apart about a year later.
S
I can confirm. When Colin Barnes was DFO he insisted on it. It became 'over my dead body Barnes', that people would move seats in LH and have to go shorthaul first.
In my case(1988) I went from RHS 747 to LHS 737 and then back to LHS 747 all within 6 months as nobody else wanted to move. Friends who went onto the shorthaul Tristar for their first command (how does THAT work) were back on the 747 having spent so little time on the Tristar that they had been unable to give sectors away due to insufficient command time.
After that huge waste of money the system fell into disrepute and first commands were on any type.
As an aside, at that time the (new) 744 fleet was having a hard time recruiting experienced F/O's as they'd be frozen for 5 years and therefore miss out on commands due to the back to shorthaul nonsense. A small number (6?) negotiated a guaranteed (in writing) right to left command if they would go on the 744 - and that's what they did. The system fell apart about a year later.
S
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I disagree Rex. Very senior shorthaul commands cost them money. A senior LH FO costs less than a draft trip a month short of a middle ground SH skipper. When you compare the two, what you want are junior SH skippers. Quite a few of our P1s are paid (a lot) less than EZ and RYR.
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At the end of the day, it doesn’t really matter what BA decide, or what their costs are.
Simple fact is, we now have 600 co-pilots who are suddenly heavily incentivised to take a command to protect their pensions. It just takes one ‘black swan’ event to bring the whole industry crashing. Any of those 600 NOT bidding for every available BA command, as soon as possible, are simply gambling that they can outsmart the cyclical nature of this industry!
Plenty of events in my time in the industry have seen the P&P system grinding to a halt! It’s very stupid to ever presume the status quo will prevail.
Bon chance!
Simple fact is, we now have 600 co-pilots who are suddenly heavily incentivised to take a command to protect their pensions. It just takes one ‘black swan’ event to bring the whole industry crashing. Any of those 600 NOT bidding for every available BA command, as soon as possible, are simply gambling that they can outsmart the cyclical nature of this industry!
Plenty of events in my time in the industry have seen the P&P system grinding to a halt! It’s very stupid to ever presume the status quo will prevail.
Bon chance!
Well, I'll have a stab at answering the OP's question. Like others have said, there is no “typical” roster but there are the following types of trip on the Airbus:
Day trips (2 or 4 sectors)
Two-day trips (usually 3/3 but sometimes 1/3, 3/1 or even 1/1, depending on destination)
Three-days trips (usually 3/2/3, sometimes 3/4/3, 3/2/1 or 1/2/3, and a few with standovers so 3/0/3, 1/0/3 or 3/0/1). The Mid-haul trips to the Middle East are 1/0/1 or sometimes 1/0/0/1.
Four- and five-day trips can be anything from 3/4/4/3 to 3/2/0/2/1, again, depending on destinations. There are currently just over 40 destinations with night stops.
A few people do only day trips, a few do only long tours, but a large proportion of rosters will have a bit of everything. That’s the LHR situation; can’t help much with the LGW scene other than to say there are very few night stops; it’s almost all 2 or 4 sector day trips. Hope that helps.
Oh, I forgot to mention the LCY-JFK flights but as a new joiner you won’t get anywhere near them.
Day trips (2 or 4 sectors)
Two-day trips (usually 3/3 but sometimes 1/3, 3/1 or even 1/1, depending on destination)
Three-days trips (usually 3/2/3, sometimes 3/4/3, 3/2/1 or 1/2/3, and a few with standovers so 3/0/3, 1/0/3 or 3/0/1). The Mid-haul trips to the Middle East are 1/0/1 or sometimes 1/0/0/1.
Four- and five-day trips can be anything from 3/4/4/3 to 3/2/0/2/1, again, depending on destinations. There are currently just over 40 destinations with night stops.
A few people do only day trips, a few do only long tours, but a large proportion of rosters will have a bit of everything. That’s the LHR situation; can’t help much with the LGW scene other than to say there are very few night stops; it’s almost all 2 or 4 sector day trips. Hope that helps.
Oh, I forgot to mention the LCY-JFK flights but as a new joiner you won’t get anywhere near them.
The Seniority System’s biggest anomaly. Often lazy. Always doing the easy trips. Often selling the trips to junior P2’s to work even LESS hard.
Not all, but a great many are self-important pr__s who wouldn’t know a hard day’s work if it trod on their foot.
Ha. They’ll be here soon, to tell me off.
And when they DO do their Command course, they never quite understand the origins of their failure. 🤔
Not all, but a great many are self-important pr__s who wouldn’t know a hard day’s work if it trod on their foot.
Ha. They’ll be here soon, to tell me off.
And when they DO do their Command course, they never quite understand the origins of their failure. 🤔
I love how these posters sit anonymously behind their keyboards saying things they wouldn’t have the balls to say to my face. I am a relatively “senior” FO who stays in the rhs because lhs shorthaul would not suit me. That does not make me lazy or lacking in command potential. In a past life I made more command decisions in one hour than the average BA captain makes in one year.
Please do not think that these pompous, arrogant posts reflect the mainstream view. Most people respect the rights of the individual and are not blinded by the “BA Captains are Gods” view.
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Simple fact is, we now have 600 co-pilots who are suddenly heavily incentivised to take a command to protect their pensions
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Flap 62.
The best captains make you think you are making the decisions, the reality is they were there 5 minutes before. Not always for sure but I think you underestimate the roll.
The problem is the system not the pilots so let’s stop the infighting.
Anyway: FO Rosters anyone? What I can offer the OP is blindlines. 15 days a month roughly. Heavily weekend based and generally 2 day 6. But you will work less than TLH and trading can really help. You can submit a preference so you can avoid day trips if you wish. You can ask for a certain day off but weekends are hard to get.
In a past life I made more command decisions in one hour than the average BA captain makes in one year.
The problem is the system not the pilots so let’s stop the infighting.
Anyway: FO Rosters anyone? What I can offer the OP is blindlines. 15 days a month roughly. Heavily weekend based and generally 2 day 6. But you will work less than TLH and trading can really help. You can submit a preference so you can avoid day trips if you wish. You can ask for a certain day off but weekends are hard to get.
Right engine.
Many thanks. You have professionally slandered me and many of my colleagues but hey ho, it’s only banter isn’t it? I tend to turn up to work fully prepared and treat everyone with the professional respect they deserve but, you crack on and feel free to catagorise the majority of 600 First Officers as workshy time wasters. I haven’t had the joy to fly with someone with your mindset but can only assume it is a privilege for most of your first officers. They can only bask in your magnificence and hear tales of how it used to be and how your pension is now.
Yes, ex military and proud of it. That’s not saying it’s better than any other route, just worthy of some respect rather than the sneering disregard of some of those who have, perhaps, only experienced the airline way of life.
Many thanks. You have professionally slandered me and many of my colleagues but hey ho, it’s only banter isn’t it? I tend to turn up to work fully prepared and treat everyone with the professional respect they deserve but, you crack on and feel free to catagorise the majority of 600 First Officers as workshy time wasters. I haven’t had the joy to fly with someone with your mindset but can only assume it is a privilege for most of your first officers. They can only bask in your magnificence and hear tales of how it used to be and how your pension is now.
Yes, ex military and proud of it. That’s not saying it’s better than any other route, just worthy of some respect rather than the sneering disregard of some of those who have, perhaps, only experienced the airline way of life.
Blimey.. the OP’s question started something!!!!!
To help the onlookers seeing this spat as another reason for not joining BA/BA is full of****** can I risk offering my ex-mil, 15 years RHS then right to left, no short-haul, POV of the top few pages of two Long Haul Status lists:
The vast majority of time served guys in the Long Haul RHS work hard, are darned good, and have a heck of a lot of world wide route and tech knowledge.
A small majority offer all the above skills but rather than giving the impression they are working hard they actually make it look so easy and low key it’s sickening to the mere mortals amongst us. Now I know that sometimes rubs sensitive folk up the wrong way both in CRC and on the crew bus, especially if they witness bike box, wind surfer or golf clubs being carried, and I am sure that leads to the “off on their holidays again ” train of thought but those individuals also put the effort in.
Then there are a few who are staying in the RHS for perhaps compassionate/family/domestic/age reasons, but regardless of the why they can and usually do still fit into one of the above groups....and then, sure, there are perhaps some who are marginal when it comes to effort at the office but, fortunately and IMHO, it is a vanishingly small number..
To stay employed all the above are passing line checks, sim checks, etc.....
It might not be helpful but I have to make this comment: There is perhaps also a danger of some “pot to kettle” creeping into this debate. There are still one or two (less than it used to be; it will be that sort of number) at the top of short haul/mid-haul P1 lists who either really don’t like sleeping anywhere other than their own bed, don't like time zone changes, or simply won’t move to Long haul until they have the seniority to have a decent choice in monthly bidding...all life style reasons. Aren’t they also guilty of “bed blocking” by not immediately moving to somewhere more commensurate with their seniority number?
Sorry I see this has turned into a long post...so that’s all I want to say about that..
To help the onlookers seeing this spat as another reason for not joining BA/BA is full of****** can I risk offering my ex-mil, 15 years RHS then right to left, no short-haul, POV of the top few pages of two Long Haul Status lists:
The vast majority of time served guys in the Long Haul RHS work hard, are darned good, and have a heck of a lot of world wide route and tech knowledge.
A small majority offer all the above skills but rather than giving the impression they are working hard they actually make it look so easy and low key it’s sickening to the mere mortals amongst us. Now I know that sometimes rubs sensitive folk up the wrong way both in CRC and on the crew bus, especially if they witness bike box, wind surfer or golf clubs being carried, and I am sure that leads to the “off on their holidays again ” train of thought but those individuals also put the effort in.
Then there are a few who are staying in the RHS for perhaps compassionate/family/domestic/age reasons, but regardless of the why they can and usually do still fit into one of the above groups....and then, sure, there are perhaps some who are marginal when it comes to effort at the office but, fortunately and IMHO, it is a vanishingly small number..
To stay employed all the above are passing line checks, sim checks, etc.....
It might not be helpful but I have to make this comment: There is perhaps also a danger of some “pot to kettle” creeping into this debate. There are still one or two (less than it used to be; it will be that sort of number) at the top of short haul/mid-haul P1 lists who either really don’t like sleeping anywhere other than their own bed, don't like time zone changes, or simply won’t move to Long haul until they have the seniority to have a decent choice in monthly bidding...all life style reasons. Aren’t they also guilty of “bed blocking” by not immediately moving to somewhere more commensurate with their seniority number?
Sorry I see this has turned into a long post...so that’s all I want to say about that..
Last edited by wiggy; 14th Apr 2018 at 09:43.
