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Things are getting interesting at RYR for Cadets

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Things are getting interesting at RYR for Cadets

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Old 14th Mar 2018, 11:21
  #81 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Hotel time zone
Posts: 140
Hypocrite. You knew the deal when you signed up, extracted what you wanted, and now suddenly it's everyone's fault except your own. It's generally the ones who fiddle the tax system and get a comeuppance who are so bitter, or who fail to make the grade (PS English is a requirement!) Over the year, contractors do pretty well once they have deducted huge amounts of training costs, at which point, if they haven't really annoyed anyone, then they generally (edit: but not always) get a contract. I'm guessing 1) You didn't get a Ryanair contract 2) you haven't been to the third world proper 3) you weren't a BALPA member?

Last edited by Time Traveller; 14th Mar 2018 at 12:27.
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Old 14th Mar 2018, 13:19
  #82 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2018
Location: Germany
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Originally Posted by Time Traveller View Post
Hypocrite. You knew the deal when you signed up, extracted what you wanted, and now suddenly it's everyone's fault except your own. It's generally the ones who fiddle the tax system and get a comeuppance who are so bitter, or who fail to make the grade (PS English is a requirement!) Over the year, contractors do pretty well once they have deducted huge amounts of training costs, at which point, if they haven't really annoyed anyone, then they generally (edit: but not always) get a contract. I'm guessing 1) You didn't get a Ryanair contract 2) you haven't been to the third world proper 3) you weren't a BALPA member?
What an arrogant post. How long are you in the company? I knew nothing about that "deal". Guess what, for a non native english speaker, knowing nothing about irish or english tax law or employment law, this whole set up was quite confusing. Were there some voices saying it's a shady deal? Yes of course. Were there many people saying take it? Yes of course.
So now us pilots are the ones fiddling the tax system? Never even try to blame the company eh? Shall we talk about the raids of german custom police? Almost destroying our careers? FYI I have the LP level 6 How's your german, italian, spanish going?
How about you cut the BS? Over the year contractors do well? What about those close to bankruptcy because of two consequent months off? What about those being stuck just before line training for several months? Why are there even training costs? And you do know that deducting those training costs from social insurance charges is partly illegal?
I also read if and generally. Why does this contractor model even exist? I was offered a Ryanair-Contract, I've been in the third world (whatever that is in your mind) and I was a VC-member from the very beginning, fighting for us pilots and our profession. Where were you? Anything else?
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Old 14th Mar 2018, 13:38
  #83 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
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Originally Posted by Time Traveller View Post
Hypocrite. You knew the deal when you signed up, extracted what you wanted, and now suddenly it's everyone's fault except your own. It's generally the ones who fiddle the tax system and get a comeuppance who are so bitter, or who fail to make the grade (PS English is a requirement!) Over the year, contractors do pretty well once they have deducted huge amounts of training costs, at which point, if they haven't really annoyed anyone, then they generally (edit: but not always) get a contract. I'm guessing 1) You didn't get a Ryanair contract 2) you haven't been to the third world proper 3) you weren't a BALPA member?

Could not agree more... Usually they all happy to start because they can offset all the expenses, then complain when it suits them.

Beside McGinley is out the door anyway. (End of the year) Ryanair contracts are offered to all new joiners and are available also to current pilots.
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Old 14th Mar 2018, 13:43
  #84 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2018
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Originally Posted by iome View Post
Could not agree more... Usually they all happy to start because they can offset all the expenses, then complain when it suits them.

Beside McGinley is out the door anyway. (End of the year) Ryanair contracts are offered to all new joiners and are available also to current pilots.
Yup finally some positive news. Did you read as well maybe that the ryanair lawyer tried to buy ryanair out of this? After they said theyre not being investigated on? Too bad the Managers of McGinley told the State Attorney another story.
Btw I keep hearing expenses. Why are there any? Why should I be happy to pay my own hotels and transportation? You guys have a healthy mindset. Probably working on your off days before for free as well, right?
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Old 14th Mar 2018, 18:10
  #85 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
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Never even try to blame the company eh? Shall we talk about the raids of german custom police?
It is the individuals responsibility to understand the applicable tax laws. Ignorance is not a defence, I do sympathise to some extent, but it's fairly well known that setting up as a limited company requires payment of both employee and employer social security - and some tax evasion was downright crooked, such as the guy who was openly bragging that he was claiming for thousands of miles positioning out of base by car, whilst actually jumpseating for free. Guys like this get done in the end, (and he did) and then they go around swearing bloody murder. As you well know, out of base gets extra compensation for incidentals (more so now), and frankly I'd rather have that than the sometimes lousy hotels booked by the company for employees. I'm not au fait with offsetting training against tax, but I was referring to historical ATPL costs. Again you refer to a snap shot of part of a year. It also doesn't quite add up that you were offered a contract, because if you had, all your grievances would become academic. Or was it financially beneficial to stay as a contractor (oh, the irony)? And it does seem direct contracts are becoming the norm. Even maybe local contracts in some countries, if there is anything in the rumour I heard today. Your hyperbole is deliberately obfuscatory and misleading.

PS Bilingual since childhood thanks.PPS By 3rd world, I mean sub-saharan Africa, Bangladesh, etc not peering over the fence from a Goan beach resort. I don't you think would equate sensible budgeting as a Ryanair FO with the former, if you had experienced it. Humility and honesty go a long way in this game, and your reply to maverick prime did not sit well.
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Old 14th Mar 2018, 19:20
  #86 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2012
Location: world
Age: 48
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The funny thing is that normally all those that respond "you knew what you were signing" are usually the ones that a few years later come back crying to this forum ... even more true for the case of RYR

Interesting human species...

By the way a friend of mine just joined Ryanair, he got one of those contractor contracts.... and no.... he doesn't have a clue of what he signed, his tax/social security obligations and so on

And I'm just going to throw a question: how many pilots in ryanair pilots file their tax returns in the countries they actually reside on (i.e. homebase country in >90% of the cases)? Because I know about a lot that do not...
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Old 14th Mar 2018, 21:12
  #87 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2018
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Originally Posted by Time Traveller View Post
It is the individuals responsibility to understand the applicable tax laws. Ignorance is not a defence, I do sympathise to some extent, but it's fairly well known that setting up as a limited company requires payment of both employee and employer social security - and some tax evasion was downright crooked, such as the guy who was openly bragging that he was claiming for thousands of miles positioning out of base by car, whilst actually jumpseating for free.

Guys like this get done in the end, (and he did) and then they go around swearing bloody murder. As you well know, out of base gets extra compensation for incidentals (more so now), and frankly I'd rather have that than the sometimes lousy hotels booked by the company for employees.

I'm not au fait with offsetting training against tax, but I was referring to historical ATPL costs. Again you refer to a snap shot of part of a year. It also doesn't quite add up that you were offered a contract, because if you had, all your grievances would become academic. Or was it financially beneficial to stay as a contractor (oh, the irony)? And it does seem direct contracts are becoming the norm. Even maybe local contracts in some countries, if there is anything in the rumour I heard today. Your hyperbole is deliberately obfuscatory and misleading.

PS Bilingual since childhood thanks.PPS By 3rd world, I mean sub-saharan Africa, Bangladesh, etc not peering over the fence from a Goan beach resort. I don't you think would equate sensible budgeting as a Ryanair FO with the former, if you had experienced it. Humility and honesty go a long way in this game, and your reply to maverick prime did not sit well.
Wow, that sounds just like it came out of Eddie's Mouth. Funny thing is, that even after years it was not even clear to the relevant tax authorities and tax advisors how to apply taxes and social insurance. But sure, it is the Pilot's responsibility to understand everything about it. I am actually happy that the charges will be dropped against the pilots, which makes your argument invalid.
Those guys that you are talking about exist, but as you just said, it was some of them. Most of the pilots that I know in Ryanair don't have any criminal intentions.

Of course I know about it. Have you ever been out of base on short notice where you had to go in the lousiest hotel just so you don't lose any money? Or even better you actually lost money? Well, I have been. I'd rather have the company sort everything out for me. By the way, per diems would be also applicable then, you should know that.

Historical ATPL costs? So as you said you as a pilot should know about tax law. In germany you can't deduct it from the taxes, unless you can proof it is your second education.

Everyone deducted the Type Rating as you might know. Deducting a Type Rating, for which the company doesn't pay, just so you earn a decent salary. How ridiculous can it actually get?

It doesn't add up? Have you thought about the possibility that I have left the company and been offered a contract to stay? Doesn't cross your mind? My salary in November was less than 1000Euro. Sure the financial benefits were awesome...You're one bright mind aren't you.

Guys like you, accepting everything by the company and praising them, are one of the biggest problem this company has. Strike breaker on top probably. I have friends that flew all over the world and they were shocked by the stories they've heard from ryanair pilots.

Can I ask you again, how long are you in the company?
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Old 15th Mar 2018, 16:33
  #88 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Hotel time zone
Posts: 140
Do you try and rile everyone around you like this at work? I've been at Ryanair a lot longer than you seem to think; several years, and I don't see the relevance anyway. Granted, Germany is one of the most harsh tax environments imaginable, so for that you have my sympathies (but still you deliberately fixate on winter pay slips). However, things do seem to be changing significantly for the better at Ryanair, (and I was a union number, pushing and voting for improvement) so I'm really pleased that it looks like FOs will get a better start at the company. While I assume you have now left, most of what you say is (hopefully) old news. At that, and so as not to flog this to death, over and out - Chill, Good luck.

Last edited by Time Traveller; 15th Mar 2018 at 17:23.
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Old 15th Mar 2018, 18:34
  #89 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2018
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Originally Posted by Time Traveller View Post
Do you try and rile everyone around you like this at work? I've been at Ryanair a lot longer than you seem to think; several years, and I don't see the relevance anyway. Granted, Germany is one of the most harsh tax environments imaginable, so for that you have my sympathies (but still you deliberately fixate on winter pay slips). However, things do seem to be changing significantly for the better at Ryanair, (and I was a union number, pushing and voting for improvement) so I'm really pleased that it looks like FOs will get a better start at the company. While I assume you have now left, most of what you say is (hopefully) old news. At that, and so as not to flog this to death, over and out - Chill, Good luck.
Of course i fixate on winter pay slips. There should not be any major difference in your pay throughout the year. Things change significantly because finally the prosecutors are tightening the noose on them. They don't offer contracts because they are nice. You should know that being several years in the company. Don't get me wrong, i am more than happy that this contractor model seems to end soon for them. this is what i was fighting for. that they will not get any advantage over fair paying airlines anymore. That they play by the same rules. otherwise our profession goes down the drain. My news are not that old by the way. And yes one thing youre right about. I have left. Together with many others. That's the only language that they speak unfortunately. Good luck to you as well, if you are still there. I am still hoping for the best for everyone there.
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Old 15th Mar 2018, 20:56
  #90 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2012
Location: world
Age: 48
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Stockholm Syndrome
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Old 31st May 2018, 17:37
  #91 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2018
Location: Germany
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Originally Posted by Skyhigh_ View Post
Jesus you seem to be very angry at Ryanair. You also sound a bit frustrated. I would recommend you to consider a career change, very unhealthy for you.
I have my reasons, just like many others. Again, you seem to have lived behind the moon or just have been hired from flight school.
What's unhealthy is up to you to learn. Contracts like the mcginley one for example are unhealthy. But you'd probably fly for free. And don't worry about my career. I made a big step ahead and I'm enjoying every bit of it at the moment.
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Old 31st May 2018, 18:29
  #92 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2017
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Originally Posted by Luke258 View Post
I have my reasons, just like many others. Again, you seem to have lived behind the moon or just have been hired from flight school.
What's unhealthy is up to you to learn. Contracts like the mcginley one for example are unhealthy. But you'd probably fly for free. And don't worry about my career. I made a big step ahead and I'm enjoying every bit of it at the moment.
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Old 31st May 2018, 22:38
  #93 (permalink)  
VJW
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Join Date: Oct 2010
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Fixating on winter months pay and complaining about it simply shows naivety if you ask me. I always found it strange when FOís would brag about how much they made during the summer, and then whine when the reverse was true in the winter. I use to just work out what 800hrs pay was and pay myself 800/12 worth of hours each month to cover me for months off/slow months. Anything over 800 hrs a year was a bonus at the end. Think some people need to understand you canít do 100hrs every month of the year...

Of course Iím not advocating the employment practices there, but if you were/are a contractor, itís not rocket science - and ending up with 500-1000euro net pay in any month, is no ones elseís fault but your own.
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Old 1st Jun 2018, 10:20
  #94 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2018
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Originally Posted by VJW View Post
Fixating on winter months pay and complaining about it simply shows naivety if you ask me. I always found it strange when FOís would brag about how much they made during the summer, and then whine when the reverse was true in the winter. I use to just work out what 800hrs pay was and pay myself 800/12 worth of hours each month to cover me for months off/slow months. Anything over 800 hrs a year was a bonus at the end. Think some people need to understand you canít do 100hrs every month of the year...

Of course Iím not advocating the employment practices there, but if you were/are a contractor, itís not rocket science - and ending up with 500-1000euro net pay in any month, is no ones elseís fault but your own.
That's exactly what you're doing. How's it my fault if I earn 1000Ä a month?? Stockholm Syndrom I see. How can you accept that you earn significantly less in winter? How can you have a stable lifestyle? If you don't get a basic salary you're screwed! Also if you get 20-30k basic and you think it's fine you're a fool. Your basic salary should cover most of your salary whereas flight sector pay should get you the bonus.
Btw it was not my fault since this airline canceled all flights to let line training guys fly.
Your attitude is, forgive my harshness, disgusting.
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Old 1st Jun 2018, 10:46
  #95 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
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Adults in sorts of trades manage to budget, Luke. It seems to be beyond you.

​​​​​I hear from someone who knows you, that you were identified as a bit "special" within days of starting at Ryanair. I really really would recommend that you draw a line under it, and treat your colleagues at whichever airline took you, with a bit more respect.
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Old 1st Jun 2018, 10:51
  #96 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2014
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You really realise how bad it is about 6 months after leaving to a better company. It's a real pity FR don't offer the little things that matter but usually only come along with union help. Summer leave, not losing a day off on Christmas even though the airline is closed, seniority etc.

It would seem last years chance to get these 'perks' is again lost due to the greed of a few who only consider the immediate future. To those I say good luck when you have kids and try to go on summer vacation!
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Old 1st Jun 2018, 11:14
  #97 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Time Traveller View Post
I'm basing my personal assessment on how you address fellow professionals on this forum.
Congratulations 😂
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Old 1st Jun 2018, 17:08
  #98 (permalink)  
VJW
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Originally Posted by Luke258 View Post
That's exactly what you're doing. How's it my fault if I earn 1000Ä a month?? Stockholm Syndrom I see. How can you accept that you earn significantly less in winter? How can you have a stable lifestyle? If you don't get a basic salary you're screwed! Also if you get 20-30k basic and you think it's fine you're a fool. Your basic salary should cover most of your salary whereas flight sector pay should get you the bonus.
Btw it was not my fault since this airline canceled all flights to let line training guys fly.
Your attitude is, forgive my harshness, disgusting.

Itís your fault because you probably naively thought that the money earned during the summer is what youíll get all year.

Not sure how my attitude can be described as disgusting. Itís very simple logic and if you chose to live like a king during the summer 100 hr months expecting that income to remain the same all year round when you well know you only get paid for 900 hrs a year, then that reflects more on you than me.

As you mention Spain- do me a favour and ask the guy working at the pool bar if he earns the same in the winter as he does in the summer, and more importantly if he budgets accordingly.

The Ďshouldí points you make are of course correct. Iíve since left and am with an airline that pays me about 85% of my income as a basic salary. While Ryanair Ďshouldí do the same, that doesnít mean that for the 9 years while I was BRK I didnít plan/budget/save knowing the winter months were slower. I find it amazing people whine about that- and even more amazing they come here to vent.

I know RYR need pilots but doubt they had a gun to your head asking you to sign that contract..
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Old 1st Jun 2018, 18:42
  #99 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2018
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Gentleman Gentlenman Gentleman, let us all try to keep this forum professional and more to the point and business like. PPRuNe should be about exchanging fact, figures and experiences. Every once and a while an emotion is O.K. but this thread has taken an unprofessional turn. This forum is a great place to share information about the airlines we work for so those who are looking to join or switch can make an informed decision. Letís keep doing this for the greater good of us all.
I recently retired against my will at age 58 from KLM and because I still love to fly am about to join Ryanair, so I really appreciate all the info I read about FR on PPRuNe. Anybody wanting info on KLM just let me know. And for those of you who think I am nuts to join FR, donít worry I believe I know what I am doing but I guess the prove is in eating the pudding or something like that.
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Old 1st Jun 2018, 19:08
  #100 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Oct 2016
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Originally Posted by Time Traveller View Post
I'm basing my personal assessment on how you address fellow professionals on this forum.
If there was a like button I would have used it. The displayed lack of respect and the childish lewd comments made render whatever his issue is as an irrelevance.

Last edited by FlipFlapFlop; 4th Jun 2018 at 11:33.
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