Ryanair pilots identify themselves as new employee council following rostering fiasco
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Maybe the situation is more like this:
- IE law enables company to not accept union recognition, provided an alterantive is established;
- Ryanair established an alternative in form of using ERC, each ERC representing a local base of few employees and dealing directly with management regarding contracts;
- Due to low employee count, due established contractor working arrangements, only a small number of voters are required to accept any deal offered by the company;
- All ERC offers from company are "take it or leave it", either accept the deal on the table we are 'kind enough' to offer or get nothing instead;
- There is NO bargaining, just the above "take it or leave it";
- Few employees in each base are desperate to retain their 5/4 roster and thus will vote for any deal on table which alternatively may upset their home life;
In practice, based on information freely available in these forums, lets see how this would work:
Let us assume a vote in a base of 4 aircraft, at 5.2 pilots per aircraft thus 21 pilots for each function in the base, only half the captains have contracts, so 10 are allowed to vote, one of which is a management representative pilot, of these 10 2 pilots abstain from voting as they are not happy to vote on the deal offered or are on annual leave or similar when voting takes place and thus not consulted, the remaining are split 3 yes/5 no, the company then adds the 2 non voters to the yes vote to make it 5/5 and accepts the deal for the base...
3 people in this sample are voting in favour and accepted a 'deal' for all 22 pilots in the local base workforce, do the maths...
Is there however a bargaining scenario when this is how ERC system works, me thinks not
The original decision must be revisited as there clearly is a discrepancy in the ERC setup of what a collective bargaining system should look like. It works in favour of company in all scenarios.
Currently it appears from the press that multiple local ERC representatives of the pilot body across EU/UK are wanting to join forces to collectively address the company offer and terms & conditions, to ensure a common set of conditions for all employees, to ensure similar conditions and terms are available to all and transparent to see when required to change base. Clearly it is not in the interest of the company to engage with multiple bases at once as it would give their advantage away which currently serves them so well using their established "divide and conquer" techniques, by giving each base a little less than others for no reason, then attempting to put out positive news that base ABC has accepted a new deal by negotiation to persuade other bases to follow suit.
- IE law enables company to not accept union recognition, provided an alterantive is established;
- Ryanair established an alternative in form of using ERC, each ERC representing a local base of few employees and dealing directly with management regarding contracts;
- Due to low employee count, due established contractor working arrangements, only a small number of voters are required to accept any deal offered by the company;
- All ERC offers from company are "take it or leave it", either accept the deal on the table we are 'kind enough' to offer or get nothing instead;
- There is NO bargaining, just the above "take it or leave it";
- Few employees in each base are desperate to retain their 5/4 roster and thus will vote for any deal on table which alternatively may upset their home life;
In practice, based on information freely available in these forums, lets see how this would work:
Let us assume a vote in a base of 4 aircraft, at 5.2 pilots per aircraft thus 21 pilots for each function in the base, only half the captains have contracts, so 10 are allowed to vote, one of which is a management representative pilot, of these 10 2 pilots abstain from voting as they are not happy to vote on the deal offered or are on annual leave or similar when voting takes place and thus not consulted, the remaining are split 3 yes/5 no, the company then adds the 2 non voters to the yes vote to make it 5/5 and accepts the deal for the base...
3 people in this sample are voting in favour and accepted a 'deal' for all 22 pilots in the local base workforce, do the maths...Is there however a bargaining scenario when this is how ERC system works, me thinks not
The original decision must be revisited as there clearly is a discrepancy in the ERC setup of what a collective bargaining system should look like. It works in favour of company in all scenarios.
Currently it appears from the press that multiple local ERC representatives of the pilot body across EU/UK are wanting to join forces to collectively address the company offer and terms & conditions, to ensure a common set of conditions for all employees, to ensure similar conditions and terms are available to all and transparent to see when required to change base. Clearly it is not in the interest of the company to engage with multiple bases at once as it would give their advantage away which currently serves them so well using their established "divide and conquer" techniques, by giving each base a little less than others for no reason, then attempting to put out positive news that base ABC has accepted a new deal by negotiation to persuade other bases to follow suit.
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Pilots are not the only ones encumbered with the ERC system in FR. And I remember there was no vote on who was to be a, by the company paid, ERC rep, if there was only 1 candidate. And who in their right career mind would stand against the mgmt suggestion.
I asssume this is the same for the proposals; There is no real vote if there is only one offer on the table, the one mgmt presents. (I certainly never heard of any vote over a pay-increase offer in my 14 years there, of which about 11 of them under the ERC system.) And they have therefore hitherto been seen as accepted by default. Except now an alternative of "no deal" has come to the fore. (An option not contemplated by a money focused mgmt that never thought anybody would say no to a pay-rise.) So voting rules, set by the creators of the system, has emerged to swing marginals.
I asssume this is the same for the proposals; There is no real vote if there is only one offer on the table, the one mgmt presents. (I certainly never heard of any vote over a pay-increase offer in my 14 years there, of which about 11 of them under the ERC system.) And they have therefore hitherto been seen as accepted by default. Except now an alternative of "no deal" has come to the fore. (An option not contemplated by a money focused mgmt that never thought anybody would say no to a pay-rise.) So voting rules, set by the creators of the system, has emerged to swing marginals.
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https://www.swealpa.se/news.asp?nid=52&cid=1&s=3&p=3
Ryanair Pilots – Give us secure employment practices
For more than two months’ the pilots of Ryanair have clearly stated the desire to enter into meaningful collective negotiations with the airline. So far, Ryanair have refused to respond to the requests of a great majority of its pilots.
- It is obvious that Ryanair must negotiate national collective agreements with its pilots to ensure that both national and European law is complied with, says Martin Lindgren, president of Svensk Pilotförening (SPF) (Swedish Air Line Pilots’ Association).
What started with a number of flight cancellations from different airports in Europe in September soon developed into a media crisis for Ryanair when thousands of flights were cancelled and hundreds of thousand passengers affected. The official reason for the cancellations later was given as leave allocation for its pilots however information from inside the company indicates pilots are resigning from the airline in droves leaving it understaffed.
Over the past two months’ the Pilots of Ryanair have unified under the imposed structure of Employee Representative Committees. A large majority of the nearly 90 pilot bases across Europe have informed the company that further negotiations on their behalf should be conducted through the EERC, European Employee Representative Committee, a body formed by and run by Ryanair Pilots.
The pilots are asking for basic rights:
Give us the right to organise and bargain collectively.
Give us the right to a secure employment model.
Give us the right to choose our own representatives.
A majority of the Ryanair Pilots in Sweden have now elected a Company Council in Svensk Pilotförening. Today, SPF informed Ryanair of this development and urges the company to immediately enter into negotiations with its Pilots through the EERC. Seven Pilots from the Company Council have stepped forward and revealed their names to Ryanair as the newly elected representatives of the Pilots in Sweden.
For more than two months’ the pilots of Ryanair have clearly stated the desire to enter into meaningful collective negotiations with the airline. So far, Ryanair have refused to respond to the requests of a great majority of its pilots.
- It is obvious that Ryanair must negotiate national collective agreements with its pilots to ensure that both national and European law is complied with, says Martin Lindgren, president of Svensk Pilotförening (SPF) (Swedish Air Line Pilots’ Association).
What started with a number of flight cancellations from different airports in Europe in September soon developed into a media crisis for Ryanair when thousands of flights were cancelled and hundreds of thousand passengers affected. The official reason for the cancellations later was given as leave allocation for its pilots however information from inside the company indicates pilots are resigning from the airline in droves leaving it understaffed.
Over the past two months’ the Pilots of Ryanair have unified under the imposed structure of Employee Representative Committees. A large majority of the nearly 90 pilot bases across Europe have informed the company that further negotiations on their behalf should be conducted through the EERC, European Employee Representative Committee, a body formed by and run by Ryanair Pilots.
The pilots are asking for basic rights:
Give us the right to organise and bargain collectively.
Give us the right to a secure employment model.
Give us the right to choose our own representatives.
A majority of the Ryanair Pilots in Sweden have now elected a Company Council in Svensk Pilotförening. Today, SPF informed Ryanair of this development and urges the company to immediately enter into negotiations with its Pilots through the EERC. Seven Pilots from the Company Council have stepped forward and revealed their names to Ryanair as the newly elected representatives of the Pilots in Sweden.
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Freedom of Association and the right to bargain (i.e. as a trade union) are part of the human rights code which AFAIK Ireland has subscribed to. Replacing trade unions with a company built committee is bullsh*t.
Ryanair pilots will ultimately have to organize and bargain themselves but as it will be beneficial to most pilots if the kingdom of self-employed-pilots gets changed, supporting them in their endeavour now might be a good idea.
Ryanair pilots will ultimately have to organize and bargain themselves but as it will be beneficial to most pilots if the kingdom of self-employed-pilots gets changed, supporting them in their endeavour now might be a good idea.
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https://www.bloomberg.com/news/artic...h-demand-talks
”.. The confrontation will continue. Each side is waiting to see which blinks first.”
Hats off for Sweden for stepping up
”.. The confrontation will continue. Each side is waiting to see which blinks first.”
Hats off for Sweden for stepping up
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https://amp.independent.ie/business/...-36344561.html
Italian civil aviation union Anpac is the latest European aviation union to see a new Ryanair company council established under its umbrella with the intention of negotiating a collective labour agreement with the Irish carrier.
National aviation unions in Ireland, Italy, Germany, Portugal and Sweden now have Ryanair company councils formed under their auspices. More are set to follow suit, it's understood.
"We are pleased to advise you that Ryanair pilots based in Italy have decided to form the Ryanair Company Council in Anpac," the Italian union's international director Riccardo Canestrari told Ryanair CEO Michael O'Leary in a letter.
Ten Ryanair staff pilots have been named in the letter as being the members of the new company council in Italy. Ryanair said that it doesn't comment on union correspondence.
The new councils are designed to put pressure on management to begin talks on national and pan-European collective labour agreements at the airline. It's something Ryanair and Mr O'Leary have already opposed, and will undoubtedly continue to strenuously do so.
A new European Employee Representative Committee (EERC) was formed during the fallout from Ryanair's recent pilot rostering debacle. The EERC wants to be a single representative body for Ryanair pilots across Europe.
But Ryanair management have refused to recognise the EERC and any efforts at wider collective representation at the carrier, which is non-unionised and does not recognise unions.
It currently relies on a system of Employee Representative Committees (ERCs) at each of its almost 90 bases.
It negotiates pay and conditions with each of them on an individual basis.
The structure was established by the airline, which points out that the ERCs have been recognised by the Supreme Court as a legitimate means to engage with pilots.
National aviation unions in Ireland, Italy, Germany, Portugal and Sweden now have Ryanair company councils formed under their auspices. More are set to follow suit, it's understood.
"We are pleased to advise you that Ryanair pilots based in Italy have decided to form the Ryanair Company Council in Anpac," the Italian union's international director Riccardo Canestrari told Ryanair CEO Michael O'Leary in a letter.
Ten Ryanair staff pilots have been named in the letter as being the members of the new company council in Italy. Ryanair said that it doesn't comment on union correspondence.
The new councils are designed to put pressure on management to begin talks on national and pan-European collective labour agreements at the airline. It's something Ryanair and Mr O'Leary have already opposed, and will undoubtedly continue to strenuously do so.
A new European Employee Representative Committee (EERC) was formed during the fallout from Ryanair's recent pilot rostering debacle. The EERC wants to be a single representative body for Ryanair pilots across Europe.
But Ryanair management have refused to recognise the EERC and any efforts at wider collective representation at the carrier, which is non-unionised and does not recognise unions.
It currently relies on a system of Employee Representative Committees (ERCs) at each of its almost 90 bases.
It negotiates pay and conditions with each of them on an individual basis.
The structure was established by the airline, which points out that the ERCs have been recognised by the Supreme Court as a legitimate means to engage with pilots.
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Total Meltdown?
My impression is that hardly any Airberlin , Monarch or Alitalia pilots are joining Ryr. Why would they.
It must be perfect for all the Airbus operators to top up with some good pilots, and routes.
It appears that there is not enough first officers ready for upgrade , courses cancelled and some not full.
Some Type rating courses postponed, lack of SFIs.?
Ò"Loony is said to have interfered directly with operations and training schedule.
With catastrophic consequences medium and long term, just to save day to day departures.
Base Captains having home office instead of Wednesdays in crew room, and full 5 on 4 off.
All the new hired cadets are only potential line pilots.The cue for linetraining is months and months. Will be some crying on the phone to Mommy and Daddy for more cash this winter. Tough luck!
A heads up to You that are going to Norwegian: Ryr has a Mole in Norwegian feeding info of new hires to Ryr.
I am not sure witch picture to use, but engine-testing at full power without oil, to collect test data on an new engine for certification looks somewhat appropriate.
Anyway: Storm coming, gone fishing!
It must be perfect for all the Airbus operators to top up with some good pilots, and routes.
It appears that there is not enough first officers ready for upgrade , courses cancelled and some not full.
Some Type rating courses postponed, lack of SFIs.?
Ò"Loony is said to have interfered directly with operations and training schedule.
With catastrophic consequences medium and long term, just to save day to day departures.
Base Captains having home office instead of Wednesdays in crew room, and full 5 on 4 off.
All the new hired cadets are only potential line pilots.The cue for linetraining is months and months. Will be some crying on the phone to Mommy and Daddy for more cash this winter. Tough luck!
A heads up to You that are going to Norwegian: Ryr has a Mole in Norwegian feeding info of new hires to Ryr.
I am not sure witch picture to use, but engine-testing at full power without oil, to collect test data on an new engine for certification looks somewhat appropriate.
Anyway: Storm coming, gone fishing!
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I'm told there are around 15 mon Cpts on a course now
I chatted to 1 of them today, all seem happy with their bases, I think they were man and Bhx based with mon, so are just happy to be able to stay at their bases and not have commute down south or abroad. This chap was saying lots are off to Eastern Europe (Wizz) and Keflavik (Wow)
I chatted to 1 of them today, all seem happy with their bases, I think they were man and Bhx based with mon, so are just happy to be able to stay at their bases and not have commute down south or abroad. This chap was saying lots are off to Eastern Europe (Wizz) and Keflavik (Wow)
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The structure was established by the airline, which points out that the ERCs have been recognised by the Supreme Court as a legitimate means to engage with pilots.
