Go Back  PPRuNe Forums > Flight Deck Forums > Terms and Endearment
Reload this Page >

Ryanair Cancelling flights!

Terms and Endearment The forum the bean counters hoped would never happen. Your news on pay, rostering, allowances, extras and negotiations where you work - scheduled, charter or contract.

Ryanair Cancelling flights!

Old 26th Oct 2017, 20:24
  #861 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: last time I looked I was still here.
Posts: 4,507
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Pilots joining on 01st November will be paid +23% more = approx £2000pcm more........ than faithful ,hard working professional currently online captains.

I was a victim of this scenario some years ago. I had a direct contract, a colleague had exactly th see eroded contract at the same base. He received, unwritten, extra benefits and expenses. Under EU law I was considered to be treated 'less favourably'. Employed on the same contract to perform the same duties, but for different recompense. Illegal.
RAT 5 is offline  
Old 26th Oct 2017, 21:12
  #862 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: Sydney
Posts: 272
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
The survey also asks whether pilots employed on agency contracts would back a group legal action to test the legality of their employment structures, and to establish better rights as employees.
The “employment relationship” has been legally tested many times in the EU:

“United Kingdom – A classic test for the existence of an employment relationship involves an assessment of the extent to which the person engaging the worker exercises, or has the right to exercise, control over the worker (see Ready Mixed Concrete (South East) Ltd v. Minister of Pensions and National Insurance [1968] 2QB 497, MacKenna J at p.515; Nethermere (St.Neots) Ltd v. Gardiner [1984] ICR 612, Stephenson LJ, p.623). The changing nature of control in many employment relationships, from ‘how to’ to ‘what to’ (see Viscount Simmonds in Mersey Docks & Harbour Board v. Coggins & Griffiths Ltd [1947] AC 1,12), has blurred the distinction between the extent of control exercised in employment and self employment relationships, and thus diminished the role of the control test in distinguishing between the two. However, it still plays an important role, and in the 1995 Court of Appeal case of Lane v. Shire Roofing ([1995] IRLR 493, Henry LJ indicated (at 495) that the existence of an employment relationship is determined by the answers to the following questions: ‘who lays down what is to be done, the way in which it is to be done, the means by which it is to be done and the time when it is done?” (Page 40) –

Regulating the Employment Relationship in Europe- Link:

http://www.ilo.org/wcmsp5/groups/pub...cms_209280.pdf

Difficult to understand why Norwegian’s pilots pay union dues for representation to a service provider agency when the Norwegian airline is their “real employer”. Norwegian's US based LH cabin crew challenged their status and won a legal ruling the airline is their employer. Ryanair pilots can do the same - but will they?
Direct Bondi is offline  
Old 26th Oct 2017, 22:51
  #863 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Earth
Posts: 335
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
It said a majority of Ryanair pilots in 2017 are direct employees, and a minority are contractors.
Ahhh the usual FR spin. The key 'word' being 2017.
McBruce is offline  
Old 26th Oct 2017, 23:28
  #864 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Ireland
Posts: 216
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Originally Posted by RAT 5
[I]I was a victim of this scenario some years ago. I had a direct contract, a colleague had exactly th see eroded contract at the same base. He received, unwritten, extra benefits and expenses. Under EU law I was considered to be treated 'less favourably'. Employed on the same contract to perform the same duties, but for different recompense. Illegal.

To employ 2 people doing the same job but on different pay is not illegal, unless the difference can be proved to be discriminatory and based on sample sex, race, age, religion a.s.o.

It is quite the opposite than same pay in most jobs. People are paid differently often based on educational background, experience, circumstances, preferences and how good they are at their job. Unless the workplace is very heavily unionised, where pay often end up as a lowest common denominator and differences becomes based on non-personal qualities like how long you've been with the company. Good for some that feel week, are sick a lot, old, or want to prioritise extracurricular activities. Not so advantageous for the young of good health that are forward, organized and ambitious.

If your plan is to work as a donkey for a few years to get up and above gaining quick promotions, then the union is not your friend. If you want to wait years while other and in your mind less motivated colleagues becomes fo / captain / training captain / base captain based only on length of service and the date they joined, and you want to stay with the same company and type untill your retirement, then the story might be different. But remember even then you are depending on the company thriving. A quick back of the hand calculation might say that the company can afford your groups rise, but what about the 12000 others that will also want a piece of the cake.
vikingivesterled is offline  
Old 27th Oct 2017, 00:46
  #865 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: Far East
Posts: 81
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
'It said that Ryanair pilots wishing to discuss or improve their pay or conditions can do so at any time using the established collective bargaining process through individual base ERCs'.

My understanding of the message from RYR to its pilots is as follows:

We won’t meet any union group, because we have a
long established collective bargaining structure at
each base which has been in place for 25 years. You
may recall that the Pilot Unions challenged our Base
ERC structure back in 2007 and failed. The Supreme
Court ruled that the long-established ERC structure
was an acceptable and lawful forum for Ryanair Pilots
to collectively negotiate with the airline.

Where is the negotiation?
Some terms have been placed in front of the ERC which had no input from the ERC's ,nil ,nada ......other than reading them I suppose.

'These agreements can only be changed by
agreement between Ryanair and your base ERC’s.
There is no other mechanism'.

'We will not enter into writing, or meetings,
with competitor airline pilots/unions, or whatever
they call themselves this week (RPG/REPA/EERC??)
whose sole aim is to prevent you from accessing a big
pay increase next month, through the existing ERC
structure'.

'We also welcome a considerable inflow of pilots
from Monarch, Air Berlin and Alitalia, all of whom
are in bankruptcy, and they will be joining Ryanair on
these significantly higher salaries at your bases from
November onwards'

'If there is no agreement at your base to vary
the existing base agreements, then we will still offer
these improved pay and conditions to all new direct
entry recruits from 1 Nov as we intend to make Ryanair
pilots the best paid B737 operators in the LoCo sector
in Europe'.

'The only way to ensure that your base shares
in this upside – from November – is to support your
ERC’s reaching agreement over the next 3 weeks. If
this doesn’t happen then these pay increases may be
delayed until December, or next year, or not delivered
at all'.

'If Pilots continue to be misled by the false
promises of Unions/REPA/RPG/EERC then you will
delay or miss out on these big pay increases next
month, and you will simply remain on your existing
base agreement until they expire between 2020 and
2022'
, the above diatribe is the most severely threatening letter from an employer I have ever read.
It boggles the mind that they can be so blunt , its not even thinly veiled.
No wonder the RYR pilots are trying to bring the company to the table for discussion
wisecaptain is offline  
Old 27th Oct 2017, 07:59
  #866 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: last time I looked I was still here.
Posts: 4,507
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Viking: Not so. I was a captain in a non-seniority airline. 2 captains employed at the same base, in the same year, (I the more experienced in total but both of us new on type), our contracts were copy/paste documents. Due to a special handshake deal done under the table the other guy received unjustified expenses to cover costs incurred by both of us that I had to pay myself. The company secretary identified my claim as 'employed equally but being treated less favourably'. The use of discrimination was not applicable and would have been inappropriate anyway. Under employment law it was 'less favourable'. We were 2 individuals who were totally replaceable and mirror images. I claimed and won.
RAT 5 is offline  
Old 27th Oct 2017, 21:17
  #867 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2015
Location: Location
Posts: 99
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
EU Parliament pushes for greater scrutiny of airline working practices

https://uk.reuters.com/article/uk-eu...-idUKKBN1CW2BC
Can737 is offline  
Old 27th Oct 2017, 21:36
  #868 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Sep 2015
Location: North
Posts: 41
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Originally Posted by wisecaptain
'It said that Ryanair pilots wishing to discuss or improve their pay or conditions can do so at any time using the established collective bargaining process through individual base ERCs'.

My understanding of the message from RYR to its pilots is as follows:

We won’t meet any union group, because we have a
long established collective bargaining structure at
each base which has been in place for 25 years. You
may recall that the Pilot Unions challenged our Base
ERC structure back in 2007 and failed. The Supreme
Court ruled that the long-established ERC structure
was an acceptable and lawful forum for Ryanair Pilots
to collectively negotiate with the airline.

Where is the negotiation?
Some terms have been placed in front of the ERC which had no input from the ERC's ,nil ,nada ......other than reading them I suppose.

'These agreements can only be changed by
agreement between Ryanair and your base ERC’s.
There is no other mechanism'.

'We will not enter into writing, or meetings,
with competitor airline pilots/unions, or whatever
they call themselves this week (RPG/REPA/EERC??)
whose sole aim is to prevent you from accessing a big
pay increase next month, through the existing ERC
structure'.

'We also welcome a considerable inflow of pilots
from Monarch, Air Berlin and Alitalia, all of whom
are in bankruptcy, and they will be joining Ryanair on
these significantly higher salaries at your bases from
November onwards'

'If there is no agreement at your base to vary
the existing base agreements, then we will still offer
these improved pay and conditions to all new direct
entry recruits from 1 Nov as we intend to make Ryanair
pilots the best paid B737 operators in the LoCo sector
in Europe'.

'The only way to ensure that your base shares
in this upside – from November – is to support your
ERC’s reaching agreement over the next 3 weeks. If
this doesn’t happen then these pay increases may be
delayed until December, or next year, or not delivered
at all'.

'If Pilots continue to be misled by the false
promises of Unions/REPA/RPG/EERC then you will
delay or miss out on these big pay increases next
month, and you will simply remain on your existing
base agreement until they expire between 2020 and
2022'
, the above diatribe is the most severely threatening letter from an employer I have ever read.
It boggles the mind that they can be so blunt , its not even thinly veiled.
No wonder the RYR pilots are trying to bring the company to the table for discussion
Oh my god what have I just read. The FR management reached the new level of low.

This is so ridiculous, they are claiming that they have perfect working ERC system that’s been working for the past 25 years yet they’re proving that the whole thing is just one big joke

Looking forward for the upcoming strike
GScapture is offline  
Old 28th Oct 2017, 07:13
  #869 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Sep 2017
Location: Europe
Posts: 1,674
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
You get what you negotiate.

His revenue isn't hurt sufficiently.

B scales A+ scales or what ever...

To IR/HR as they are a hammer every problem therefore a nail...
Rated De is offline  
Old 28th Oct 2017, 08:18
  #870 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: last time I looked I was still here.
Posts: 4,507
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
The report from UK Reuters about EASA conducting an investigation into zero-hour contracts & safety aspects is nonsense. If pilots allow that to be the remit they have shot themselves in the foot. EASA will not find any correlation between the two. The zero-hour construction is one issue; the so-called self-employed is completely another. One might have safety issues, doubtful, the other is a legal question of true status. The two issues are not apples & apples. The priority is to sort out the self-employed issue. Once that is done the zero-hour issue will be swept up as well. ECA needs to change the focus of EASA and not allow AEA to control the target of the investigation. They know the answer before the process and then can claim they've done due diligence and proved all is OK.

Last edited by RAT 5; 28th Oct 2017 at 10:40.
RAT 5 is offline  
Old 28th Oct 2017, 10:04
  #871 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: 41S174E
Age: 56
Posts: 3,079
Received 441 Likes on 121 Posts
I think Rat is onto it there.
framer is offline  
Old 28th Oct 2017, 10:56
  #872 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2013
Location: 60 north
Age: 59
Posts: 17
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Another interesting week.

A great Thanks to our American supporters.

Pilots of the world Unite! The time is now!
BluSdUp is offline  
Old 29th Oct 2017, 06:31
  #873 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2015
Location: Location
Posts: 99
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
A French article is saying 110 pilots left this week Ryanair for greener pastures. More informations anyone?
Can737 is offline  
Old 29th Oct 2017, 08:08
  #874 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Sep 2017
Location: Huxley
Posts: 48
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
I know atleast 4 and I don't know that many of the 4000 pilots. These are people who handed in their notice just before everything kicked off. It will be interesting to see how many go over the coming few months.
TheMightyAtom is offline  
Old 29th Oct 2017, 11:35
  #875 (permalink)  
aox
 
Join Date: Mar 2015
Location: UK
Posts: 227
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Originally Posted by BluSdUp
Another interesting week.

A great Thanks to our American supporters.

Pilots of the world Unite! The time is now!
I'm going to take a gamble with comment that may be seen as diverging off-topic.

As I said to a colleague years ago, solidarity is sometimes a bit less than you expect.

How did you know about that, he asked, realising what I was referring back to, which I'd told some of them a few weeks earlier.

One of the great strikes of the Thatcher era, about crushing the power of the unions according to some, or scabs crossing picket lines according to others, was broken by the employer signing a closed-shop deal with a different union.
aox is offline  
Old 29th Oct 2017, 12:34
  #876 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: UK
Posts: 592
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
It is interesting reading the first few pages of this thread. You get a clear picture of the Company and it's antics. Divide and rule, smoke and mirrors and other thoughts come to mind. How quickly Weather, ATC strikes etc changed to pilot holidays when the wheels publicly came off.

It seems simple to me.

Ryanair either pay more than the competition with no gimmicks or the exodus continues.

I am betting that next summer aircraft will be parked.
RHINO is offline  
Old 29th Oct 2017, 12:47
  #877 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2013
Location: 60 north
Age: 59
Posts: 17
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
You are on!
Not a betting man, but the question is how many.
Unless a dramatically better , water proof , deal is on.
Here is my 2 cents,,,

If I was in the wetlease business I would crew up, HEY, wait were did they all go! ARGHH
BluSdUp is offline  
Old 29th Oct 2017, 17:28
  #878 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: UK
Posts: 321
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
If they really want to attract a few more pilots then they've surely got to start advertising strongly for direct entry captains NON type rated & lower the requirements slightly, oh and pay for the type rating with a bond. Will this ever happen? I guess it depends how desperate they get.
Reversethrustset is offline  
Old 29th Oct 2017, 17:37
  #879 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: UK
Posts: 592
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Interestingly you don't have to pay for the TR course if Non TR DEC. You are bonded though.

Anyway the Brazilians are on their way!
RHINO is offline  
Old 29th Oct 2017, 18:31
  #880 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: on a beach
Age: 68
Posts: 350
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/artic...pilot-shortage
beachbumflyer is offline  

Thread Tools
Search this Thread

Contact Us - Archive - Advertising - Cookie Policy - Privacy Statement - Terms of Service

Copyright © 2024 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Use of this site indicates your consent to the Terms of Use.