Ryanair Cancelling flights!
Cut & Paste Intellectual
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Ironic that UK CAA is implementing and holding to account under Regulation (EC) 261/2004 of European and Council - another EU based airline whose own delegated aviation authority appears to be publicly mute on this significant CAT matter.
Is this what they call in classic EU speak "reste à liquider par les autres"?
Is this what they call in classic EU speak "reste à liquider par les autres"?
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I've always thought that sooner or later passengers are going to get sick and tired of being treated so poorly by certain airlines. I'd wager we have some distance to go yet though.
Does anyone here seriously believe that people will stop flying with Ryanair? People have a short memory and are hungry for a bargain. They will quickly forget this fiasco and come back for more punishment in the future. £9.99 to Malaga? Book it quick before the price goes up! Anyone with the slightest insight into economics and finance would judge that this is nothing more than a buying opportunity for Ryanair shares.
The reality is that we are all addicted to cheap travel, and cheap pretty much everything else. It's basically a drug. Who here hasn't seen something in a shop and then checked amazon before deciding where to buy it? Ultimately we're all guilty of the same rampant indifference when it comes to the consequences of our buying decisions, whether its Sports Direct, Amazon, Uber, Deliveroo... the list goes on and on. That is the nature of unbridled capitalism.
The only way the problem gets sorted is if one of two things happens.
1 ) Government and the regulators actually man up and hold companies like Ryanair to account, which is why it was at least a little gratifying to watch the CAA Chief executive get animated about the subject this week - god knows all of us who occupy these forums must have been wondering when and if he was even capable of it. It's also why terms and conditions in the USA are sky rocketing - because after the Colgan Air crash the regulator actually took some meaningful action.
Unfortunately the Irish regulator doesn't seem to be particularly fond of regulating, presumably because it would result in less airlines choosing to be registered in Ireland and less money flowing into the coffers. And we all thought it was going to be Brexit that was responsible for a low-regulation low-tax "rogue" state on the fringes of Europe. Anyone fancy an apple?
2) Employees finally realise that the only way to improve their lot is to unionise and hold companies to account through legally conducted IA. I don't really understand why this hasn't happened in Ryanair. Surely there must be an appetite for it?
Here's hoping that one or both of the above comes to pass or nothing at all will change.
Does anyone here seriously believe that people will stop flying with Ryanair? People have a short memory and are hungry for a bargain. They will quickly forget this fiasco and come back for more punishment in the future. £9.99 to Malaga? Book it quick before the price goes up! Anyone with the slightest insight into economics and finance would judge that this is nothing more than a buying opportunity for Ryanair shares.
The reality is that we are all addicted to cheap travel, and cheap pretty much everything else. It's basically a drug. Who here hasn't seen something in a shop and then checked amazon before deciding where to buy it? Ultimately we're all guilty of the same rampant indifference when it comes to the consequences of our buying decisions, whether its Sports Direct, Amazon, Uber, Deliveroo... the list goes on and on. That is the nature of unbridled capitalism.
The only way the problem gets sorted is if one of two things happens.
1 ) Government and the regulators actually man up and hold companies like Ryanair to account, which is why it was at least a little gratifying to watch the CAA Chief executive get animated about the subject this week - god knows all of us who occupy these forums must have been wondering when and if he was even capable of it. It's also why terms and conditions in the USA are sky rocketing - because after the Colgan Air crash the regulator actually took some meaningful action.
Unfortunately the Irish regulator doesn't seem to be particularly fond of regulating, presumably because it would result in less airlines choosing to be registered in Ireland and less money flowing into the coffers. And we all thought it was going to be Brexit that was responsible for a low-regulation low-tax "rogue" state on the fringes of Europe. Anyone fancy an apple?
2) Employees finally realise that the only way to improve their lot is to unionise and hold companies to account through legally conducted IA. I don't really understand why this hasn't happened in Ryanair. Surely there must be an appetite for it?
Here's hoping that one or both of the above comes to pass or nothing at all will change.
NM....hum ho....£9.99 to Malaga......funny you should mention that. I have just booked it and have been doing so, occasionally for years. (another £9.99 for the return trip). I do not buy any of the extras on offer.
Just recently there has been the suggestion that I and others like me should be paying 'proper' fares.
'Proper' fares cannot be paid from my income. If it needs much more money, I cannot travel; I am unworried about that. People in this income bracket will be cut out; (doesn't matter)
In working life I operated my own business and occasionally offered services in this predatory pricing manner....it was in my interests to occasionally do so. Nobody complained to me.
In addition to my own low personal air fare on my Ryanair flight,.......much bigger fares have been paid by many other passengers.
Thus aside from gratuitous verbal disrespect now and then from MOL I find it hard to see what pilots are complaining about. Surely they can ignore random nonsense soundbites? If they are not prepared to unionise surely each individual can be aware of the rules that govern their working lives and work strictly to rule if they feel so inclined ? And of course move on, when ready.
Just recently there has been the suggestion that I and others like me should be paying 'proper' fares.
'Proper' fares cannot be paid from my income. If it needs much more money, I cannot travel; I am unworried about that. People in this income bracket will be cut out; (doesn't matter)
In working life I operated my own business and occasionally offered services in this predatory pricing manner....it was in my interests to occasionally do so. Nobody complained to me.
In addition to my own low personal air fare on my Ryanair flight,.......much bigger fares have been paid by many other passengers.
Thus aside from gratuitous verbal disrespect now and then from MOL I find it hard to see what pilots are complaining about. Surely they can ignore random nonsense soundbites? If they are not prepared to unionise surely each individual can be aware of the rules that govern their working lives and work strictly to rule if they feel so inclined ? And of course move on, when ready.
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rifruffian
I do appreciate that Ryanair and other low cost airlines have brought affordable travel to the masses and that, in some ways, they should be applauded for that. It has also brought substantial employment opportunities to pilots.
That does not, however, divorce Ryanair from its responsibilities as an employer. Your £9.99 fare to Malaga is a result of the bully boy tactics which Ryanair deploys against suppliers, airports & employees and even to a certain extent its own customers. All I'm suggesting is that those parties finally stand up for themselves and say "enough is enough".
I hope they do so, and if they do, I'm sure the market will adjust and I doubt whatever the new price is, that you won't be able to afford it.
I do appreciate that Ryanair and other low cost airlines have brought affordable travel to the masses and that, in some ways, they should be applauded for that. It has also brought substantial employment opportunities to pilots.
That does not, however, divorce Ryanair from its responsibilities as an employer. Your £9.99 fare to Malaga is a result of the bully boy tactics which Ryanair deploys against suppliers, airports & employees and even to a certain extent its own customers. All I'm suggesting is that those parties finally stand up for themselves and say "enough is enough".
I hope they do so, and if they do, I'm sure the market will adjust and I doubt whatever the new price is, that you won't be able to afford it.
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Of course it could afford it. It would cost them around 5% off the profit to give all pilots a 20k pay rise. About 80m.
These 18,000 flight cancelled will cost them about 130m...and thats excluding the ancillaries.. (40e ave fare and a 95% load factor) and who knows what brand damage and future bookings will cost them now.
He would rather cancel flights than see his staff happy. Deplorable man.
These 18,000 flight cancelled will cost them about 130m...and thats excluding the ancillaries.. (40e ave fare and a 95% load factor) and who knows what brand damage and future bookings will cost them now.
He would rather cancel flights than see his staff happy. Deplorable man.
Last edited by UAV689; 30th Sep 2017 at 01:21.
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Sooner or later they will say enough is enough of being dragged off the cattle transports, their travel arrangements thrown into disarray by flight delays and cancellations, being frisked, stripped searched, stacked and packed into gulag queues, sleeping on terminal floors and suffering all manner of ignonimity for the pathetic pleasures of a litre or two of cheap lager, sangria or some other foul concoction under the mosquito infested skies above some distant shore.
Will pax change their buying process? Never
Will pilots continue to apply / stay at Ryanair? Finally debatable.
Regardless of pax demand, can the current flight volume be maintained with insufficient crew? Absolutely not
Will investors be interested in Ryanair if they cannot continue to deliver growth? Doubtful if there is doubt over Ryanair’s ability to crew current let alone increased flight volume.
Can Ryanair continue without investors / growth? Not for ever.
So don’t look to pax or Ryanair or investors to change. The ONLY group with the power to change is the crew.
Hopefully there is much going on under the radar with the crew to drive this change. They should continue to work together while not shouting their plans from the rooftops so that the Chief Pikey can’t move to counter their actions.
Will pilots continue to apply / stay at Ryanair? Finally debatable.
Regardless of pax demand, can the current flight volume be maintained with insufficient crew? Absolutely not
Will investors be interested in Ryanair if they cannot continue to deliver growth? Doubtful if there is doubt over Ryanair’s ability to crew current let alone increased flight volume.
Can Ryanair continue without investors / growth? Not for ever.
So don’t look to pax or Ryanair or investors to change. The ONLY group with the power to change is the crew.
Hopefully there is much going on under the radar with the crew to drive this change. They should continue to work together while not shouting their plans from the rooftops so that the Chief Pikey can’t move to counter their actions.
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Switching airlines
SLF here. Wishing the pilots well from the outside this looks like your chance.. Perhaps market forces will dictate better terms and conditions anyway.. Can only say that my business has a new policy of not booking Ryanair flights any more. At a personal level for our Christmas flights home I paid more to book aer lingus. I can only imagine that a percentage of people out there won't book Ryanair now out of fear their plans are messed up. Wish the flight and cabin crews the best of luck in getting better pay.
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Growth, or fluctuation, in the actual share price just benefits staff with share options, and ensures the current management stays in place by satisfying speculators.
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rif,
I think you'd have to experience it to fully understand what could happen to you as a pilot in Ryanair. Sure, many of the problems the pilots face are luxury problems to other groups in society that are less fortunate. Does that make them less legitimate? I don't think so personally. While it's not the most academic job out there people have generally put a great deal of commitment into getting a job as a pilot. I think that should be respected. Regardless of profession I think management should always respect that you are a human being with certain needs for security, financial and social.
Ryanair can be a great place if you've got the base of choice, a steady roster and quite alright money. At the end, most people or not so upset about the money they make but all the other 'little things'. The basing policy is a disgrace and there is no regard to loyalty (as in; basing based on seniority). The contracts when you start are all, or used to be when I was there, zero-hour contracts. No fly no pay. Break a leg? Unlucky you. Hope you've saved up. Only the direct Ryanair contracts provide a certain protection. They keep insisting on hiring you on Irish contract, somehow claiming you're working on Irish territory and thus should be governed by Irish laws and practices. Without knowing them all in full, I understand they're quite weak compared to many other European countries. Hence you're denied certain rights in your home country ( not necessarily by the local authority, but by Ryanair). I have never heard a Ryanair pilot being granted paternity leave. I have nevered heard a Ryanair pilot go on his statutory summer holiday. I have never heard a Ryanair pilot go part time for studying. If you're British you may think I am talking out of my arse, but in some European countries these are fundamental rules that all other companies have o play by. Ryanair think they're somehow above that. Fortunately the European Court of Justice has now put it down on paper that 'home base' should be the primary marker as to which laws you should be governed by.
So while the verbal disrespect you mentioned can be a nuisance, there is much bigger fish to fry for the employees, I fully understand your situation and price of the fares. Going on holiday is, again, a luxury problem. I wish everyone could have the opportunity, but i don't think it should be at the expense of others.
Thus aside from gratuitous verbal disrespect now and then from MOL I find it hard to see what pilots are complaining about. Surely they can ignore random nonsense soundbites? If they are not prepared to unionise surely each individual can be aware of the rules that govern their working lives and work strictly to rule if they feel so inclined ? And of course move on, when ready.
Ryanair can be a great place if you've got the base of choice, a steady roster and quite alright money. At the end, most people or not so upset about the money they make but all the other 'little things'. The basing policy is a disgrace and there is no regard to loyalty (as in; basing based on seniority). The contracts when you start are all, or used to be when I was there, zero-hour contracts. No fly no pay. Break a leg? Unlucky you. Hope you've saved up. Only the direct Ryanair contracts provide a certain protection. They keep insisting on hiring you on Irish contract, somehow claiming you're working on Irish territory and thus should be governed by Irish laws and practices. Without knowing them all in full, I understand they're quite weak compared to many other European countries. Hence you're denied certain rights in your home country ( not necessarily by the local authority, but by Ryanair). I have never heard a Ryanair pilot being granted paternity leave. I have nevered heard a Ryanair pilot go on his statutory summer holiday. I have never heard a Ryanair pilot go part time for studying. If you're British you may think I am talking out of my arse, but in some European countries these are fundamental rules that all other companies have o play by. Ryanair think they're somehow above that. Fortunately the European Court of Justice has now put it down on paper that 'home base' should be the primary marker as to which laws you should be governed by.
So while the verbal disrespect you mentioned can be a nuisance, there is much bigger fish to fry for the employees, I fully understand your situation and price of the fares. Going on holiday is, again, a luxury problem. I wish everyone could have the opportunity, but i don't think it should be at the expense of others.
Here here 172! Will the right honourable member remain standing and take the ovation. I do feel that we pilots keep doing it to ourselves and, often, as resolute and self motivated as MOL.
Way back, I left the comfort zone of our National carrier. I was desperate for a B707 or 727 rating which I would have then used to jumpship, downroute if necessary and offer myself to my carrier of choice.
I was seduced by a highly attractive operator and fell for the high profile conduct of it's owner. The Base was ostensibly LGW. In fact, we did one week at Manch, two days off, one week in Berlin, two days off and back to Manch. I never did get to see LGW other than from a pax perspective in the back of a commuting BCAL 1-11. Back home, the dog bit me & the kids called me uncle.
Basic pay was low but allowances were high. If I worked, I almost doubled my pay from BA days. If I didn't work (sick, eave etc ) the bank manager was on my back.
Company further seduced us 1-11 drivers with A310 (for it's time, hugely attractive) and ordered, about ,11 of them. Massive order for DC10's too meant I was space-bound and could expect my first Command to be on wide-body, yes, LGW Based, near my home.
I woke up to reality and resigned in order to go for actual rather than promised opportunity. I never noticed that there was a six month notice period rather than the industry norm of three. I pleaded to be released but was threatened with court action for breach of contract. I got legal advice & decided to go to court. In my last three months, I was taken off the roster as a Base/IR renewal was due. I was kept at home, out of check and severely out of cheque ! I joined my new operator in old clothes and worn out shoes.
The new employers were top-dog. Boeing course in Seattle. All transfers & very high standard accommodation paid for. Full allowances (away from Base) paid in advance.Very highly sought after type rating paid for with no bond. I did, kinda, repay. I stayed from start to horrible demise. The company's that is, although I didn't fare too well either, for a bit.
Yet, we still have, I am sure, tons of pilots ready to sign up for the terms & conditions offered by the likes of Ryanair. We will continue to do so and no, there is no solution.MOL has every right to stick two fingers up to us & laugh all the way to the bank. I do, frankly, admire his entrepreneurial skill.
Way back, I left the comfort zone of our National carrier. I was desperate for a B707 or 727 rating which I would have then used to jumpship, downroute if necessary and offer myself to my carrier of choice.
I was seduced by a highly attractive operator and fell for the high profile conduct of it's owner. The Base was ostensibly LGW. In fact, we did one week at Manch, two days off, one week in Berlin, two days off and back to Manch. I never did get to see LGW other than from a pax perspective in the back of a commuting BCAL 1-11. Back home, the dog bit me & the kids called me uncle.
Basic pay was low but allowances were high. If I worked, I almost doubled my pay from BA days. If I didn't work (sick, eave etc ) the bank manager was on my back.
Company further seduced us 1-11 drivers with A310 (for it's time, hugely attractive) and ordered, about ,11 of them. Massive order for DC10's too meant I was space-bound and could expect my first Command to be on wide-body, yes, LGW Based, near my home.
I woke up to reality and resigned in order to go for actual rather than promised opportunity. I never noticed that there was a six month notice period rather than the industry norm of three. I pleaded to be released but was threatened with court action for breach of contract. I got legal advice & decided to go to court. In my last three months, I was taken off the roster as a Base/IR renewal was due. I was kept at home, out of check and severely out of cheque ! I joined my new operator in old clothes and worn out shoes.
The new employers were top-dog. Boeing course in Seattle. All transfers & very high standard accommodation paid for. Full allowances (away from Base) paid in advance.Very highly sought after type rating paid for with no bond. I did, kinda, repay. I stayed from start to horrible demise. The company's that is, although I didn't fare too well either, for a bit.
Yet, we still have, I am sure, tons of pilots ready to sign up for the terms & conditions offered by the likes of Ryanair. We will continue to do so and no, there is no solution.MOL has every right to stick two fingers up to us & laugh all the way to the bank. I do, frankly, admire his entrepreneurial skill.
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Point of no return!
I think RYR has passed point of no return with regards to the old way of treating and paying pilots.
Here is why: In a resent memo it is stated they have 445 ac next summer and 25 are grounded. This winter the number is 400 minus 10.
A factor of 5,2 crew per aircraft now is going to increase to 5,4 in the future.
Hallo, what did they slip in the coffee,, that white powder sure was not sugar!!!
The rate of pilots leaving is off the scale. The one staying are not linetraining or TRE ing anymore.
Unless the Terms and Pay goes up by 30 to 40% and local contracts are applied, people are just not interested.
With the expansion retirement and pilots leaving, we are looking at a net 1000 pilots plus the next 18 months.
It is just not done.
Oh . and as long as Mr O and his incompetent gang is at the helm, not much will change. He is going to destroy the company.
This Company has great potential, but it is still a fact: No Captain , no FO , no pushback.
Happy Days
Here is why: In a resent memo it is stated they have 445 ac next summer and 25 are grounded. This winter the number is 400 minus 10.
A factor of 5,2 crew per aircraft now is going to increase to 5,4 in the future.
Hallo, what did they slip in the coffee,, that white powder sure was not sugar!!!
The rate of pilots leaving is off the scale. The one staying are not linetraining or TRE ing anymore.
Unless the Terms and Pay goes up by 30 to 40% and local contracts are applied, people are just not interested.
With the expansion retirement and pilots leaving, we are looking at a net 1000 pilots plus the next 18 months.
It is just not done.
Oh . and as long as Mr O and his incompetent gang is at the helm, not much will change. He is going to destroy the company.
This Company has great potential, but it is still a fact: No Captain , no FO , no pushback.
Happy Days
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Maybe a limited work conflict would have been better for Ryanair than a pure schedule shrink:
They don't have to worry about investors because they are not looking for more money in the markets.
They wouldn't have to pay striking staff and their pilots would be flush with hours affterwards. They could temporary suspend other unneeded staff, without pay.
Striking group wouldn't have been oragnised for long so wouldn't have built up funds for a long conflict.
FR could whrink their schedule and would just need to give affected passengers their money back but wouldn't have to reroute them, put them on other modes of transport or compensate them.
It would shift the public's blame to the striking group and sympathy to the company.
In the end the conflict would be solved with a lesser increase in payment to the pilots than what they got, or a reorganisation in direction of less contracting, more social protection and even less in the hand.
They don't have to worry about investors because they are not looking for more money in the markets.
They wouldn't have to pay striking staff and their pilots would be flush with hours affterwards. They could temporary suspend other unneeded staff, without pay.
Striking group wouldn't have been oragnised for long so wouldn't have built up funds for a long conflict.
FR could whrink their schedule and would just need to give affected passengers their money back but wouldn't have to reroute them, put them on other modes of transport or compensate them.
It would shift the public's blame to the striking group and sympathy to the company.
In the end the conflict would be solved with a lesser increase in payment to the pilots than what they got, or a reorganisation in direction of less contracting, more social protection and even less in the hand.
Mmmmm PPruuune!
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Ryanair will always be a paradox - Folk know full well what they are like and yet still join. I suspect the level of experienced crew recruitment is somewhat less than that of newbie / cadet level, but as someone alluded to earlier, an airline needs to keep a careful eye on its experience demographic. Start losing that experience, and more importantly, training experience and the thing will unravel.
Given the level of outrage and interest is outfits like Sports Direct and Uber and the attention to zero hour contracts I remain astounded that this airline's employment practices haven't come under closer scrutiny. However, if you have bills to pay and you understood what you were joining it is difficult to get things changed. The only way to voice your displeasure is by leaving - a difficult option for most.
I personally do not respond well to bully boy company tactics and wish the company and MOL (in its current form) ill. For all the working staff FD, CC, admin check in etc etc who essentially provide the obscene profits, I wish well and desperately hope some good comes out of this to their advantage.
I'm sure OLeary will survive on even a small percentage of what he has reaped.
Given the level of outrage and interest is outfits like Sports Direct and Uber and the attention to zero hour contracts I remain astounded that this airline's employment practices haven't come under closer scrutiny. However, if you have bills to pay and you understood what you were joining it is difficult to get things changed. The only way to voice your displeasure is by leaving - a difficult option for most.
I personally do not respond well to bully boy company tactics and wish the company and MOL (in its current form) ill. For all the working staff FD, CC, admin check in etc etc who essentially provide the obscene profits, I wish well and desperately hope some good comes out of this to their advantage.
I'm sure OLeary will survive on even a small percentage of what he has reaped.
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Ryanair (Crewing) are now telling everybody who calls sick that they must contact one of the managers (D..R...) the following day. Upon which, said manager will then tell them that their sickness is suspicious, and that they cannot position home at the end of the week if they call sick the following day too. So essentially, Ryanair are now threatening anybody who calls sick.
Utterly illegal and in complete contempt of safety. When are the authorities going to act upon these cowboys?
Utterly illegal and in complete contempt of safety. When are the authorities going to act upon these cowboys?
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That`s got me reminiscing. There was a time when air travel was a delight and to be an airline pilot meant something, not to me alone but to all. But of course I was a bundle of joy, must say more so to my nanny than my parents.
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Ryanair flight attendant lifts the lid on startling working conditions ? and plans for a revolt
Spreading to the cabin crew ranks now. It could be a perfect storm for O'Leary.
Spreading to the cabin crew ranks now. It could be a perfect storm for O'Leary.
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Ryanair flight attendant lifts the lid on startling working conditions ? and plans for a revolt
Spreading to the cabin crew ranks now. It could be a perfect storm for O'Leary.
Spreading to the cabin crew ranks now. It could be a perfect storm for O'Leary.
That just makes me
sick to the pit of my stomach. When I worked in that quagmire of a so-called airline I witnessed young, new, bright cabin crew (male and female) from many different countries reduced to tears, talked down to, and basically ripped apart by disgusting bully base supervisors who's attitude can only be described as abhorrent! It was VERY upsetting to watch.
This has been going on for long over a decade! And lets not fool ourselves here nor question this Daily Telegraph article - that article is 100% true and correct!
This sadistic, bullying culture doesn't come from within one RYR "base" - it comes form the top! The very top! From MOL - who has made all his profits from standing on the necks of crew - and all his other evil sheep at the top with him!
It's hard not to feel deep-seeded disdain for such a sick and twisted airline management culture!
THERE IS A MASSIVE RISK TO SAFETY HERE: As a captain it is my duty to absolutely ensure that all my crew FO, pursor and juniors are "on the ball", clewed in, focussed and know their stuff. And yet where is the certainty in knowing my crew are of sound mind and not distracted should an emergency evacuation be required, or if a rapid decompression occurred, on-board smoke, a fire, fumes, bomb threat... or any other non-normal situation - but all the cabin crew can think of is that viscious cowardly borderline "corporal punishment" they just received from some sick base supervisor who was given strict instructions from top management to do so! "Safety first" - gimme a
break!MOL has to go along with his twisted bullyboy cronies if any good is to be made of what is - at the moment - a nasty ass "airline".