Virgin Atlantic FO payscale
Champagne anyone...?
Only you can answer that question.
I'm not going to try and convince anyone to join Virgin. Judging by the number of applicants, the job sells itself. You've got 40 years of short haul command ahead of you - do you take the hit and get on a long haul seniority list now or leave it 10 years until the pay drop is even bigger and you're even further down the list?
By the way, a large proportion of us are ex-skippers from elsewhere.
I'm not going to try and convince anyone to join Virgin. Judging by the number of applicants, the job sells itself. You've got 40 years of short haul command ahead of you - do you take the hit and get on a long haul seniority list now or leave it 10 years until the pay drop is even bigger and you're even further down the list?
By the way, a large proportion of us are ex-skippers from elsewhere.
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Only you can answer that question.
I'm not going to try and convince anyone to join Virgin. Judging by the number of applicants, the job sells itself. You've got 40 years of short haul command ahead of you - do you take the hit and get on a long haul seniority list now or leave it 10 years until the pay drop is even bigger and you're even further down the list?
By the way, a large proportion of us are ex-skippers from elsewhere.
I'm not going to try and convince anyone to join Virgin. Judging by the number of applicants, the job sells itself. You've got 40 years of short haul command ahead of you - do you take the hit and get on a long haul seniority list now or leave it 10 years until the pay drop is even bigger and you're even further down the list?
By the way, a large proportion of us are ex-skippers from elsewhere.
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Year One FO pay is £71162, consisting of £55166 basic and £15996 flying pay.
Year 2 - £74240
Year 3 - £75699
Year 4 - £77182
Year 5 - £78712
Year 6 - £80281
Flying Pay remains fixed at £15996 every year.
Honest opinion of the place? I like it and consider myself lucky to be here. I fly with good people on decent routes in good aircraft. We are well remunerated and our pension is the best in the industry. Time to command is fair for a seniority-based airline.
There are mumbles and moans as in any airline but on balance it's a good place to work. You will obviously get varying opinions but that's mine.
Year 2 - £74240
Year 3 - £75699
Year 4 - £77182
Year 5 - £78712
Year 6 - £80281
Flying Pay remains fixed at £15996 every year.
Honest opinion of the place? I like it and consider myself lucky to be here. I fly with good people on decent routes in good aircraft. We are well remunerated and our pension is the best in the industry. Time to command is fair for a seniority-based airline.
There are mumbles and moans as in any airline but on balance it's a good place to work. You will obviously get varying opinions but that's mine.
out of the BA one.
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To add a bit of balance from a BA perspective there are certainly a few advantages over virgin.
1) You can fly both long haul and short haul in BA which gives you all career options. Be based at either lhr or lgw to suit your commute and fly any one of 320,380 soon to be 350, 747, 777 or 787.
2) When you get your command you slide onto your same pay point on the captains scale be it 3,7 or 20 years. In Virgin I believe when you get your command, you start on captains pay point 1 irrespective of how long you've been in the company.
3) The top pay points in BA are noticeably more money than virgin.
4) You really are a master of your own destiny in BA, you can become a training FO, senior Manager, or whatever else suits your fancy based on merit and irrespective of your time in the company. Again I'm led to believe as an FO in virgin your career options outside of line flying are very very limited.
5) seniority......now this goes two ways. Of course to start with you deal with all the crap but you know that as your career progresses you are gaining more and more control over your life. You are working towards something. In virgin with rotating seniority you could have been in the company 10, 20 years, you've done your time and you know at certain points you can't even be sure your going to get the leave you want for that wedding or family holiday but the guy that joined yesterday can.
6) Roster manipulation, Bid for what you want when you want it. You can swap as many trips as you want without getting the company involved, swap leave, bid for days off, destinations etc etc currently called bid line . This will change with the new system but we are aiming for the same flexibility with the new JSS system. Again when your new your control of your bidding is very limited but we are looking at this over ones whole career.
As a 12 year 777 FO im currently 14,15 days off per month on average, this is more than my virgin friend on 340 who seems to get closer to 11,12. Last year new joiners were getting commands on shorthaul after only 18 months in the company. The normal is closer to 5-7 years. Long haul is of course much much longer but if we are comparing to the LOCOS this would be comparing apples and pears. I contribute 6% of my salary and BA 12.6% (18.6% total) into my pension. Even if you are on the new 34 point payscale, your pensionable pay follows the 24 points and is therefore no different to mine. We have 28 days leave and about 16 wrap days per year and another 14 days off called a duty free week. This is a total of 58 possible leave days which again I believe is more than Virgin.
I left a LOCO 12 years ago at the age of 24 and have been long haul ever since, I Don't have any regrets. I have almost complete control over my lifestyle from month to month. I choose roughly how many days off I have, which days they are, where I go and when I take my leave. I can choose which aircraft I fly, if I want a shorthaul command or stay where I am dictating my lifestyle on long haul. If I become a training FO, a manager on the ground or if I want to go part time.
We all want different things from a 'career' but do you want to sit where you are, flying the same aircraft to the same destinations with the same people for 30-40 years or do you want options and the ability to have a say over all of those things? For me as a 20-30 year old deciding on what to do, it would be a very easy decision (BA or possibly virgin). As a 35+ year old with a family knowing I may never possibly get a long haul command it wouldn't be quite such an easy decision.
1) You can fly both long haul and short haul in BA which gives you all career options. Be based at either lhr or lgw to suit your commute and fly any one of 320,380 soon to be 350, 747, 777 or 787.
2) When you get your command you slide onto your same pay point on the captains scale be it 3,7 or 20 years. In Virgin I believe when you get your command, you start on captains pay point 1 irrespective of how long you've been in the company.
3) The top pay points in BA are noticeably more money than virgin.
4) You really are a master of your own destiny in BA, you can become a training FO, senior Manager, or whatever else suits your fancy based on merit and irrespective of your time in the company. Again I'm led to believe as an FO in virgin your career options outside of line flying are very very limited.
5) seniority......now this goes two ways. Of course to start with you deal with all the crap but you know that as your career progresses you are gaining more and more control over your life. You are working towards something. In virgin with rotating seniority you could have been in the company 10, 20 years, you've done your time and you know at certain points you can't even be sure your going to get the leave you want for that wedding or family holiday but the guy that joined yesterday can.
6) Roster manipulation, Bid for what you want when you want it. You can swap as many trips as you want without getting the company involved, swap leave, bid for days off, destinations etc etc currently called bid line . This will change with the new system but we are aiming for the same flexibility with the new JSS system. Again when your new your control of your bidding is very limited but we are looking at this over ones whole career.
As a 12 year 777 FO im currently 14,15 days off per month on average, this is more than my virgin friend on 340 who seems to get closer to 11,12. Last year new joiners were getting commands on shorthaul after only 18 months in the company. The normal is closer to 5-7 years. Long haul is of course much much longer but if we are comparing to the LOCOS this would be comparing apples and pears. I contribute 6% of my salary and BA 12.6% (18.6% total) into my pension. Even if you are on the new 34 point payscale, your pensionable pay follows the 24 points and is therefore no different to mine. We have 28 days leave and about 16 wrap days per year and another 14 days off called a duty free week. This is a total of 58 possible leave days which again I believe is more than Virgin.
I left a LOCO 12 years ago at the age of 24 and have been long haul ever since, I Don't have any regrets. I have almost complete control over my lifestyle from month to month. I choose roughly how many days off I have, which days they are, where I go and when I take my leave. I can choose which aircraft I fly, if I want a shorthaul command or stay where I am dictating my lifestyle on long haul. If I become a training FO, a manager on the ground or if I want to go part time.
We all want different things from a 'career' but do you want to sit where you are, flying the same aircraft to the same destinations with the same people for 30-40 years or do you want options and the ability to have a say over all of those things? For me as a 20-30 year old deciding on what to do, it would be a very easy decision (BA or possibly virgin). As a 35+ year old with a family knowing I may never possibly get a long haul command it wouldn't be quite such an easy decision.
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BA has never appealed to me , I have not tried to get in and probably won't .
Have a few friends there who don't like it but they are on the 34 pay scale on both LH and SH , which is what new joiners will be on .
They also say that the movement now will be very slow after the mass movement last year .
I can understand if you are on the old system and relatively senior then it's probably good !
Does VS make a profit ? I guess brexit will
Only effect the cost of things in dollars ?
As the don't do European routes ?
Mr Cruz does not fill me with Confidence either !
Have a few friends there who don't like it but they are on the 34 pay scale on both LH and SH , which is what new joiners will be on .
They also say that the movement now will be very slow after the mass movement last year .
I can understand if you are on the old system and relatively senior then it's probably good !
Does VS make a profit ? I guess brexit will
Only effect the cost of things in dollars ?
As the don't do European routes ?
Mr Cruz does not fill me with Confidence either !
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Can I clarify how the year one figure converts into a monthly net figure, after tax, NI, pension etc?
Currently in the Middle East and a little out of touch with the tax system back home!
Currently in the Middle East and a little out of touch with the tax system back home!
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I know from experience, E/W long haul flying with just 11-12 days off per month is unbelievably fatiguing in the long run. More so than typical SH rosters. I'm much happier in the latter.
Champagne anyone...?
As I said, I have no particular interest in convincing anyone to join Virgin over and above any other company.
Snapper5 - new joiners are on the same pension deal. Cadets are on different benefit structure during their cadetship period so only receive a max of 10% company contribution. They then revert to the 15% scheme.
Cloudbunny - this website is handy for calculating net pay. Remember we have allowances paid to us as well, on a trip by trip basis. As with all UK airlines the way these are paid and taxed is currently being reviewed by HMRC however at present we receive an additional USD600 - 1200 a month depending on destination & frequency. If you're hoping to maintain your salary standards from the Middle East you really need to be looking at UK DEC SH jobs. As you're well aware, there's a reason they pay a premium in the ME!
Cloudn9ne - thanks for the info on BA; I'm glad that you're happy with the choices you've made, as I am with mine. Just for completeness I'd respond:
1) Correct. Virgin is a longhaul airline. We have LHR, LGW and MAN bases. The MAN basing options suits a lot of people.
2) Also correct. When/if you get your command at VS you move to the level 1 captain pay. Which is obviously a pay rise on any FO pay. Again, we're a long haul only airline so there are no options for an early command on SH. If however you want a long haul command at BA you have something of a wait in store.
3) True story although how many senior skippers are on full time contracts? The higher salaries at BA on part-time of a 900hr contract aren't that far off those of a full time 750hr contract at VS. Don't get starstruck by the ££££ signs at the top of the scales - by the mid-fifties onwards most people are doing whatever they can to reduce the amount of work they have to do!
4) We have FO TRIs, groundschool instructors and managers. Like BA. If that sort of thing floats your boat....
5) That argument cuts both ways old chap. Our rotating bid groups make it all a lot fairer overall. That's how the the 7 month FO I've just been away with got his Christmas Leave bid for this year approved.
6) We have bidding options and swapping. True your system is currently much better, especially in terms of sector swapping and automated swaps. The ability to do that is a function of the size of BA. We're much smaller so things are a bit more mandraulic. I hope it works out for you and you don't lose that flexibility but ultimately JSS is just a preferencing system like Carmen. It's going to favour the company.
I'm a year 5 747 FO. I have 15 days off this month, had 17 days in Aug and 13+4 days leave in Jul.
The other thing I'd add (ribbingly) is if it's that good at BA why do we always get a slack handful of BA folk joining us each time we recruit?
Time Traveller - Long haul is indeed fatiguing; we're lucky in that we have a 750hr contract and various time-in-seat/min days off agreements to protect us. You're right though, LH isn't for everyone. By way of comparison, I found repeated days of SH multi-sector days to be more ruinous. We're all different.
Folks, I'm happy to answer questions about VS. I'm not going to try and sell it to you and won't do an in-depth "compare and contrast" against other U.K. airlines. FYI I'm a late 40s, ex-military, ex-UK loco SH, year 5 FO on the 744. Generally v happy with my lot in life currently.
Except that the bloody stepkids won't tidy their bedrooms.
Snapper5 - new joiners are on the same pension deal. Cadets are on different benefit structure during their cadetship period so only receive a max of 10% company contribution. They then revert to the 15% scheme.
Cloudbunny - this website is handy for calculating net pay. Remember we have allowances paid to us as well, on a trip by trip basis. As with all UK airlines the way these are paid and taxed is currently being reviewed by HMRC however at present we receive an additional USD600 - 1200 a month depending on destination & frequency. If you're hoping to maintain your salary standards from the Middle East you really need to be looking at UK DEC SH jobs. As you're well aware, there's a reason they pay a premium in the ME!
Cloudn9ne - thanks for the info on BA; I'm glad that you're happy with the choices you've made, as I am with mine. Just for completeness I'd respond:
1) Correct. Virgin is a longhaul airline. We have LHR, LGW and MAN bases. The MAN basing options suits a lot of people.
2) Also correct. When/if you get your command at VS you move to the level 1 captain pay. Which is obviously a pay rise on any FO pay. Again, we're a long haul only airline so there are no options for an early command on SH. If however you want a long haul command at BA you have something of a wait in store.
3) True story although how many senior skippers are on full time contracts? The higher salaries at BA on part-time of a 900hr contract aren't that far off those of a full time 750hr contract at VS. Don't get starstruck by the ££££ signs at the top of the scales - by the mid-fifties onwards most people are doing whatever they can to reduce the amount of work they have to do!
4) We have FO TRIs, groundschool instructors and managers. Like BA. If that sort of thing floats your boat....
5) That argument cuts both ways old chap. Our rotating bid groups make it all a lot fairer overall. That's how the the 7 month FO I've just been away with got his Christmas Leave bid for this year approved.
6) We have bidding options and swapping. True your system is currently much better, especially in terms of sector swapping and automated swaps. The ability to do that is a function of the size of BA. We're much smaller so things are a bit more mandraulic. I hope it works out for you and you don't lose that flexibility but ultimately JSS is just a preferencing system like Carmen. It's going to favour the company.
I'm a year 5 747 FO. I have 15 days off this month, had 17 days in Aug and 13+4 days leave in Jul.
The other thing I'd add (ribbingly) is if it's that good at BA why do we always get a slack handful of BA folk joining us each time we recruit?
Time Traveller - Long haul is indeed fatiguing; we're lucky in that we have a 750hr contract and various time-in-seat/min days off agreements to protect us. You're right though, LH isn't for everyone. By way of comparison, I found repeated days of SH multi-sector days to be more ruinous. We're all different.
Folks, I'm happy to answer questions about VS. I'm not going to try and sell it to you and won't do an in-depth "compare and contrast" against other U.K. airlines. FYI I'm a late 40s, ex-military, ex-UK loco SH, year 5 FO on the 744. Generally v happy with my lot in life currently.
Except that the bloody stepkids won't tidy their bedrooms.
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Stop start
Thankyou for the info ! Much appreciated!
Just a few questions
Are there any rumours floating around regarding Bransons share reduction ?
How does the union work at VS ? Is it a strong one ?
Cheers
Thankyou for the info ! Much appreciated!
Just a few questions
Are there any rumours floating around regarding Bransons share reduction ?
How does the union work at VS ? Is it a strong one ?
Cheers
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The union is strong at VS. Hang on is that the minority one or the majority one, I think it's the minority one? I have a few friends at VS and they don't paint the same picture as the chap above. They say it used to be good years ago but things have slipped quite a bit in recent years. I think without the Delta link things could potentially be a lot worse. It's hard to compare VS with BA they're very different entities in many ways not least in size and size matters in aviation.