Norwegian Lack of Pilots
for European pilots... Go figure!
If the 787 is having so many inflight shutdowns how cones it still has ETOPS approval. I thought one of the approval ticks of ETOPS was based on engine reliability over x flight hours.
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I bet this post never appears - I got banned from another NAS thread for criticising bondi and his psychotic hatred of NAS.
Pprune admin said they were glad someone was taking NAS to task, utter bias.
Shame as I have some good info .
Pprune admin said they were glad someone was taking NAS to task, utter bias.
Shame as I have some good info .
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Have a few questions, if you are willing to answer?
Are you expected to stump up the bond, or is it simply paid to the company if you leave early? Bit of an interesting one if the company were to fold, where would that leave the pilot, having just joined the company?
There have been mentions that downroute digs are somewhat godawful. Are we talking LAX down town shooting crack den bad or self service breakfast bad? Crew can be known to be somewhat precious, so "bad" is very much a relative term.
Is ID90/75 part of the package?
Pension? Any scheme or are you into DIY territory?
Any chat of pay point increases once Full time, or will the co/capt rate fixed?
Once working Full time, is there a per diem rate as opposed to a flat annual allowance rate, or is this again fixed?
For me personally, NAS is a definite option. Companies have to start somewhere, the model is relatively new (as did Easy at some stage) with the time to command a competitive feature of the offer. Expanding route structure, by all accounts, pleasant crews to work for and a fleet of modern new aeroplanes. Profit margins seem thin, but once they are up and running with setup costs covered, this should sort itself out. We don't live in the 90's and whilst T and Cs are not fantastic across the industry, we still have the highest paid jobs (for a major sector) in Europe.
Are you expected to stump up the bond, or is it simply paid to the company if you leave early? Bit of an interesting one if the company were to fold, where would that leave the pilot, having just joined the company?
There have been mentions that downroute digs are somewhat godawful. Are we talking LAX down town shooting crack den bad or self service breakfast bad? Crew can be known to be somewhat precious, so "bad" is very much a relative term.
Is ID90/75 part of the package?
Pension? Any scheme or are you into DIY territory?
Any chat of pay point increases once Full time, or will the co/capt rate fixed?
Once working Full time, is there a per diem rate as opposed to a flat annual allowance rate, or is this again fixed?
For me personally, NAS is a definite option. Companies have to start somewhere, the model is relatively new (as did Easy at some stage) with the time to command a competitive feature of the offer. Expanding route structure, by all accounts, pleasant crews to work for and a fleet of modern new aeroplanes. Profit margins seem thin, but once they are up and running with setup costs covered, this should sort itself out. We don't live in the 90's and whilst T and Cs are not fantastic across the industry, we still have the highest paid jobs (for a major sector) in Europe.
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Are you expected to stump up the bond, or is it simply paid to the company if you leave early? Bit of an interesting one if the company were to fold, where would that leave the pilot, having just joined the company?
One of my concerns in applying too! Anyone know the answer?
One of my concerns in applying too! Anyone know the answer?
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Recruitment advertisements, company accounts and available Employment Contract all indicate a requirement for non-rated pilots to provide a bond in the form of cash payment or bank guarantee. Regardless, the novel and complex labor scheme circumventing direct employment with the airline remains questionable.
Companies House accounts list Rishworth’s Global Crew UK Ltd as an “employment placement agency”. For the period ending March 2016, “included within the amounts by the group undertakings is 1,130,000 Euros of funds held for pilots in the form of bonds”. The next accounts are due to by 30 September 2017:-
https://beta.companieshouse.gov.uk/c...filing-history
The filing states; “The Company does not have a bank account, therefore all income and expenditures are collected or incurred by other group companies” - “The Company’s immediate parent undertaking is Global Resources Singapore PTE Ltd, a company incorporated in Singapore”. However, a confirmation statement dated 24 April 2017, lists Empresaria NZ Ltd as “Persons with significant control” over Global Crew UK Ltd:-
https://www.empresaria.com/ - “Our brands; Rishworth Aviation”
The Employment Contract associated with Norwegian’s 787 operations on file with the DOT includes:
“Schedule 3 - Training
(b) The Employee agrees to provide the Employer with a training cost bond in EUR by way of either a bank guarantee from a satisfactory bank in favor of the Employer in a form accepted by the Employer, or a cash deposit to a bank account nominated by the Employer, to the requisite value specified below in respect of such training costs two weeks prior to the Commencement Date. The applicable training cost bond shall reduce on each anniversary of the Commencement Date in accordance with the schedule in Item (c) below.
(c) Where the Employee has undertaken a B787 type rating course at the Employer’s or the Client’s cost and this Agreement is terminated (excluding termination by the Employer under *Clause 9.1 of this Agreement [*30 days notice by Employer]) prior to completion of the term, the Employee shall immediately repay the Employer the training costs as follows, for the date on which the Employee's notice expires (where the employment has been terminated with notice), or the date on which termination takes effect (where the employment has been terminated without notice) (“Effective Date of Termination”) occurring between:
Pilots current and rated on any other accepted Boeing or Airbus aircraft type in JAA/EASA license when starting the B787 type rating course:
EUR 40,000
Effective Date of Termination, Amount to be repaid:
0-12 months - EUR 40,000
13-24 months - EUR 27,000
25-36 months - EUR 13,000
After 36 months – Nil”
The Employment Contract on file with the DOT also contains;
“Clause 10, Material Changes/Redundancy/Transfer of Employment –In circumstances where;
(b) Client [Norwegian airline] terminates its agreement with the Employer [agency] with respect to the Employee [pilot] - then the Employer shall be entitled to terminate this agreement by giving 30-days notice to the Employee or (if greater), any employee entitlements will be in accordance with the laws of England and Wales” - or appropriate EU country.
Employment laws of England and Wales state that a minimum one week notice must be given if employment is less than two years and an additional week for each year of service thereafter.
Reference to Schedule 3, Training, clause (c) suggests that if you receive 30-days notice from the agency Employer via Clause 9.1 you are not liable for training costs. Presumably, you would have no liability under Clause 10 (b) above. But remember, your bank guarantee or cash payment is under the control of the agency Employer (“in favor of the Employer”).
Despite Clause 10 (b), this labor scheme is being marketed as “permanent employment”.
Response to refute or comment on the above is welcomed. Sadly, some are so disheartened with Norwegian’s “employment” shortcomings they respond in frustration with no association to the post or thread whatsoever. Fortunately, the administrators recognize the irrelevance and take the appropriate action.
Companies House accounts list Rishworth’s Global Crew UK Ltd as an “employment placement agency”. For the period ending March 2016, “included within the amounts by the group undertakings is 1,130,000 Euros of funds held for pilots in the form of bonds”. The next accounts are due to by 30 September 2017:-
https://beta.companieshouse.gov.uk/c...filing-history
The filing states; “The Company does not have a bank account, therefore all income and expenditures are collected or incurred by other group companies” - “The Company’s immediate parent undertaking is Global Resources Singapore PTE Ltd, a company incorporated in Singapore”. However, a confirmation statement dated 24 April 2017, lists Empresaria NZ Ltd as “Persons with significant control” over Global Crew UK Ltd:-
https://www.empresaria.com/ - “Our brands; Rishworth Aviation”
The Employment Contract associated with Norwegian’s 787 operations on file with the DOT includes:
“Schedule 3 - Training
(b) The Employee agrees to provide the Employer with a training cost bond in EUR by way of either a bank guarantee from a satisfactory bank in favor of the Employer in a form accepted by the Employer, or a cash deposit to a bank account nominated by the Employer, to the requisite value specified below in respect of such training costs two weeks prior to the Commencement Date. The applicable training cost bond shall reduce on each anniversary of the Commencement Date in accordance with the schedule in Item (c) below.
(c) Where the Employee has undertaken a B787 type rating course at the Employer’s or the Client’s cost and this Agreement is terminated (excluding termination by the Employer under *Clause 9.1 of this Agreement [*30 days notice by Employer]) prior to completion of the term, the Employee shall immediately repay the Employer the training costs as follows, for the date on which the Employee's notice expires (where the employment has been terminated with notice), or the date on which termination takes effect (where the employment has been terminated without notice) (“Effective Date of Termination”) occurring between:
Pilots current and rated on any other accepted Boeing or Airbus aircraft type in JAA/EASA license when starting the B787 type rating course:
EUR 40,000
Effective Date of Termination, Amount to be repaid:
0-12 months - EUR 40,000
13-24 months - EUR 27,000
25-36 months - EUR 13,000
After 36 months – Nil”
The Employment Contract on file with the DOT also contains;
“Clause 10, Material Changes/Redundancy/Transfer of Employment –In circumstances where;
(b) Client [Norwegian airline] terminates its agreement with the Employer [agency] with respect to the Employee [pilot] - then the Employer shall be entitled to terminate this agreement by giving 30-days notice to the Employee or (if greater), any employee entitlements will be in accordance with the laws of England and Wales” - or appropriate EU country.
Employment laws of England and Wales state that a minimum one week notice must be given if employment is less than two years and an additional week for each year of service thereafter.
Reference to Schedule 3, Training, clause (c) suggests that if you receive 30-days notice from the agency Employer via Clause 9.1 you are not liable for training costs. Presumably, you would have no liability under Clause 10 (b) above. But remember, your bank guarantee or cash payment is under the control of the agency Employer (“in favor of the Employer”).
Despite Clause 10 (b), this labor scheme is being marketed as “permanent employment”.
Response to refute or comment on the above is welcomed. Sadly, some are so disheartened with Norwegian’s “employment” shortcomings they respond in frustration with no association to the post or thread whatsoever. Fortunately, the administrators recognize the irrelevance and take the appropriate action.
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To be fair, I don't think Norwegian does "Training Bonds" any longer.
I believe they now use "No Compete" clauses.
Not sure about how that would work though.
Hope that helps.
I believe they now use "No Compete" clauses.
Not sure about how that would work though.
Hope that helps.
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Enzo
Same
Absolutely nothing about that Qatari wet lease is relivant to this discussion.
A wet leased N registered 737 arriving in Oslo with 30 American pilots to address pilot shortages should cause a union response, both to inept management planning and if those pilots might also crew Norwegian’s aircraft within Europe.
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Norwegian’s crew service providers (your employer) do not hold any AOC. Therefore, upon leaving the Norwegian airline with a brand new 787 or 737 type rating and securing direct airline employment, you would not be competing with your former employer – Rishworth or Orient Ship Management.
Those responsible may be attempting a non-compete covenant on the grounds of 'Protectable Interests' (extraordinary or specialized training). To qualify, the training "must exceed that which is usual, regular, common or customary in the industry". It is usual for an airline to train its pilots on the aircraft they will fly. Therefore, a non-compete covenant for 787 or 737 training is not enforceable.
A worldwide, country by country legal guide to non-compete covenants including every US state is available at this link:
https://www.fenwick.com/FenwickDocum...-Covenants.pdf
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Do you know guys if they still not offering Spanish bases for Senior Type Rated FOs coming from other bases.
Anyone knows what happen after the upgrade, are they sending people out of his permanent base like Ryanair does?
Cheers
Anyone knows what happen after the upgrade, are they sending people out of his permanent base like Ryanair does?
Cheers
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It doesn't matter where you come from, your base will be allocated according to your bids and your position on the MSL, if someone higher up the list wants the space and there's no space for you, that's too bad, then you go where they need you. The system isn't perfect but the only fair system in place, you do your time and eventually you get what you want.
Regarding the upgrade, you will first have to pass the selection and then upon successful completion of training you'll be given a base, if there's space at your preferred base and nobody of higher seniority wants that base you get it, if not you'll be moved and can then bid for your preferred base in the base bidding process. Same principle as above, when your name comes up on the list you get it, until such time you have to bide your time and wait.
Regarding the upgrade, you will first have to pass the selection and then upon successful completion of training you'll be given a base, if there's space at your preferred base and nobody of higher seniority wants that base you get it, if not you'll be moved and can then bid for your preferred base in the base bidding process. Same principle as above, when your name comes up on the list you get it, until such time you have to bide your time and wait.
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What bases are you offering for the moment, right now?,
What happen if you are in your preference base and then do the upgrade?, After finish the upgrade you return to your base or you are moved to other base?,
How many hours are you making per month? how many sectors per day?,
cheers
What happen if you are in your preference base and then do the upgrade?, After finish the upgrade you return to your base or you are moved to other base?,
How many hours are you making per month? how many sectors per day?,
cheers
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I have no idea what bases are on offer at the moment, contact Norwegian or OSM or whoever deals with your application for more info.
Regarding the upgrade, you can bid for your preferred base before starting the course and then if there's space, you'll be able to stay, if there is no space, you go where you are needed and then with the next round of base bidding you can bid for your preferred base. If there is a slot and your seniority is good enough, you can go back there, if there is a slot and someone of higher seniority bids for it, then you don't get it and they do. Eventually your seniority will be good enough to get what you want and then you can move there.
Monthly hours can be hard to predict, but expect to fly between 750-800 per year. It is mostly 2 sector days in the Spanish bases, with the occasional 4 sector day, in the Scandi bases the days vary greatly between 2, 4 and 6 sector days, the transatlantic operation is self explanatory, and LGW and HEL have a mix of 2, 3 and 4 sector days. Hardly any nightstops at Spanish bases, expect plenty in the Scandi bases, LGW and HEL.
Regarding the upgrade, you can bid for your preferred base before starting the course and then if there's space, you'll be able to stay, if there is no space, you go where you are needed and then with the next round of base bidding you can bid for your preferred base. If there is a slot and your seniority is good enough, you can go back there, if there is a slot and someone of higher seniority bids for it, then you don't get it and they do. Eventually your seniority will be good enough to get what you want and then you can move there.
Monthly hours can be hard to predict, but expect to fly between 750-800 per year. It is mostly 2 sector days in the Spanish bases, with the occasional 4 sector day, in the Scandi bases the days vary greatly between 2, 4 and 6 sector days, the transatlantic operation is self explanatory, and LGW and HEL have a mix of 2, 3 and 4 sector days. Hardly any nightstops at Spanish bases, expect plenty in the Scandi bases, LGW and HEL.
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I would concur with november.sierra
Dublin is now on offer as a crew base, but with restrictions due to experience levels required for US OPS, this will pull some back to the emerald isle and possibly from LGW that are non UK resident but commute in to LGW that have been hit by the fall in the £ -v- €
There is also talk of recruitment moving back to Norwegian from OSM, I have also heard that all future TR courses will moving in house later this year.
Dublin is now on offer as a crew base, but with restrictions due to experience levels required for US OPS, this will pull some back to the emerald isle and possibly from LGW that are non UK resident but commute in to LGW that have been hit by the fall in the £ -v- €
There is also talk of recruitment moving back to Norwegian from OSM, I have also heard that all future TR courses will moving in house later this year.
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Whilst Norwegian may not own any sims, they virtually have a monopoly on the Scandinavia based CAE sims, also the CTC sims at LGW are used mainly by Norwegian, so that's not an issue.