Dutch Ryanair pilot loses court case vs tax man: not deemed self-employed
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Harry i think this dutch pilot initially needed to pay taxes and social charges in Ireland and then in the Netherlands using their tax rules there. Usually being able to claim the Irish bit already paid and then pay some more in the Netherlands if needed using their taxcode.
Interesting to see courts seeing through these employment contracts also. Is this going to spread further within the EU about this or is this limited to the Netherlands presently?
Interesting to see courts seeing through these employment contracts also. Is this going to spread further within the EU about this or is this limited to the Netherlands presently?
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If one looks at the cost base of the major European LoCo airlines then it clear that something doesn't quite add up, the lowest are of course FR & Wizz air then there is a big gap before you get to Norwegian and easy jet, given that they all pay the same price for fuel, aircraft and to some degree landing fee's, then the rest must come down to a combination of staff costs and efficiency, this is where FR wins, it is ruthlessly efficient but its staff cost base is well down on the next group of major airlines.
The self employed 3 director ltd company is a joke, i have heard of pilots naively thinking that offsetting a new MacBook a year and 3 iPhones will wash, thats before the joker from Scandinavia but working in Milan, buying a SAS business class ticket 100% refundable home, using the invoice for his travel costs before cancelling the flight and jump seating home with his airline will go unnoticed month after month, there are many pilots out there who have had their type rating paid for by the taxpayer and then some.
The EU country courts have no balls, they are still terribly grateful for Ireland voting to stay.
Nothing will come of this
The self employed 3 director ltd company is a joke, i have heard of pilots naively thinking that offsetting a new MacBook a year and 3 iPhones will wash, thats before the joker from Scandinavia but working in Milan, buying a SAS business class ticket 100% refundable home, using the invoice for his travel costs before cancelling the flight and jump seating home with his airline will go unnoticed month after month, there are many pilots out there who have had their type rating paid for by the taxpayer and then some.
The EU country courts have no balls, they are still terribly grateful for Ireland voting to stay.
Nothing will come of this
Germany-Focus on Ryanair Managers
Umstrittenes Beschäftigungsmodell: Ryanair-Mitarbeiter im Visier der Fahnder | tagesschau.de
- German prosecuter are about for four FR Managers, one has left FR already
- German prosecuters are about for 820 FR pilots, two agencies and four tax consultants
- McGinleyAviation is accusing FR to have them asked to use a system which has already been used by another agency
- McGinleyAviation also says FR suggested certain tax consultants to be used
- FR (Edward Wilson) say they don't know about any investigation
- A lawyer of Brookfield Aviation told the prosecuters FR did establish a system of certain pilots job agencies and tax consultants
- It's about several million Euros
- German prosecuter are about for four FR Managers, one has left FR already
- German prosecuters are about for 820 FR pilots, two agencies and four tax consultants
- McGinleyAviation is accusing FR to have them asked to use a system which has already been used by another agency
- McGinleyAviation also says FR suggested certain tax consultants to be used
- FR (Edward Wilson) say they don't know about any investigation
- A lawyer of Brookfield Aviation told the prosecuters FR did establish a system of certain pilots job agencies and tax consultants
- It's about several million Euros
Last edited by gearlever; 2nd Mar 2017 at 09:41.
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Am I correct when I write that you don't get paid if the flight is cancelled for whatever reason? I mean it's not that you could pursue another gig for the same day?
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The pilot IS NOT RESPONSIBLE AT ALL in case of False Selfe Employment according to EU legislation.
It is ALWAYS the EMPLOYER who is guilty of employing an employee under false self-employment pretention.
Hence, in the Netherlands, the EMPLOYER, NOT the employee is responsible to pay not only all taxes, social security to the State, but also ALL normally received bonusses, holiday payments, sick payments etc to the pilot.
It is NOT the Pilots who are in trouble for they are victims, it is RYANAIR who is deemed guilty.
It is ALWAYS the EMPLOYER who is guilty of employing an employee under false self-employment pretention.
Hence, in the Netherlands, the EMPLOYER, NOT the employee is responsible to pay not only all taxes, social security to the State, but also ALL normally received bonusses, holiday payments, sick payments etc to the pilot.
It is NOT the Pilots who are in trouble for they are victims, it is RYANAIR who is deemed guilty.
Icelanta.....
The pilot IS NOT RESPONSIBLE AT ALL in case of False Selfe Employment according to EU legislation.
The pilot IS NOT RESPONSIBLE AT ALL in case of False Selfe Employment according to EU legislation.
Short comment here regarding penalties for "employees"/"contractors in the U.K. Contractors' Questions: What now that HMRC says I'm inside IR35? :: Contractor UK
Comment about proposed rule changes:
http://www.personneltoday.com/hr/cha...e-firing-line/
Again, definitely one for the experts, certainly in the U.K.
Last edited by wiggy; 3rd Mar 2017 at 08:05.
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Piltdown Man
I wanted to tell of my own experience at Ryanair's hands, which, hopefully, might show a different side to MOL, after all, he's very much in control of what happens in the company.
I had been working as a TRE/ line trainer with them for about six years when I suffered a life changing stroke at age 50. On the face of it I was deep in dwang! I wasn't personal friends with any of the management or anything like that, just an ordinary joe. But Ryanair have been amazingly good to me, they had an insurance scheme which I was fortunate enough to qualify for, and they have been nothing short of extremely kind ever since.
I know that they can be aggressive, it's a big boys game, but I have heard a similar story to my own where there has been a life changing medical event happen with other individuals. I know for certain that other companies have not been so good when this has happened.
Maybe I'm just 'lucky'? That has been my experience, so MOL obviously has a heart somewhere within his 'darkness'.
But MOL is an aggressive, nasty piece of work. You turn up with a knife and he'll have a gun and your first born as hostage.
I had been working as a TRE/ line trainer with them for about six years when I suffered a life changing stroke at age 50. On the face of it I was deep in dwang! I wasn't personal friends with any of the management or anything like that, just an ordinary joe. But Ryanair have been amazingly good to me, they had an insurance scheme which I was fortunate enough to qualify for, and they have been nothing short of extremely kind ever since.
I know that they can be aggressive, it's a big boys game, but I have heard a similar story to my own where there has been a life changing medical event happen with other individuals. I know for certain that other companies have not been so good when this has happened.
Maybe I'm just 'lucky'? That has been my experience, so MOL obviously has a heart somewhere within his 'darkness'.
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I want to add to my post above my own thoughts on this 'tax issue'.
Most people know when they are walking a fine line with 'tax dodging' or anything else. Very few of us find ourselves 'forced' into anything, but we squeal like little piggies when the **** hits the fan.
Any pilots who don't feel comfortable with Ryanair's setup aren't forced at gunpoint to join. Go try somewhere that you know won't have these difficulties. It's quite simple.
But it never is, where humans are concerned.
Most people know when they are walking a fine line with 'tax dodging' or anything else. Very few of us find ourselves 'forced' into anything, but we squeal like little piggies when the **** hits the fan.
Any pilots who don't feel comfortable with Ryanair's setup aren't forced at gunpoint to join. Go try somewhere that you know won't have these difficulties. It's quite simple.
But it never is, where humans are concerned.
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Stan, that is good to hear. I hope they continue to look after you until you are able rehabilitated and are able to resume a earning a crust. So from this I presume you were actually employed directly by RYR, which is also good to hear. But I think all of your permanent colleagues should also have the same status.
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But I think all of your permanent colleagues should also have the same status.
Just my 2c A stroke sure puts things into perspective.
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The pilot IS NOT RESPONSIBLE AT ALL in case of False Selfe Employment according to EU legislation.
It is ALWAYS the EMPLOYER who is guilty of employing an employee under false self-employment pretention.
Hence, in the Netherlands, the EMPLOYER, NOT the employee is responsible to pay not only all taxes, social security to the State, but also ALL normally received bonusses, holiday payments, sick payments etc to the pilot.
It is NOT the Pilots who are in trouble for they are victims, it is RYANAIR who is deemed guilty.
It is ALWAYS the EMPLOYER who is guilty of employing an employee under false self-employment pretention.
Hence, in the Netherlands, the EMPLOYER, NOT the employee is responsible to pay not only all taxes, social security to the State, but also ALL normally received bonusses, holiday payments, sick payments etc to the pilot.
It is NOT the Pilots who are in trouble for they are victims, it is RYANAIR who is deemed guilty.
Stil, why is it allowed? Scope clauses kill any thought of it here--scope defines exactly what flying will be done by whom. Isn't there something in EU law that would prevent contracted out work? ?US labor law would prevent it, too.
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ExDubai,
It is not a theory. A couple of years ago I hired a very well respected Law firm to find out what the legislation is regarding pilots whi are " self employed".
I suggest anyone who is in a situation where Tax predators want your skin do the same and attack the taxman if they want your hard earned money.
Contractors are victims, not criminals. And it is typical for the spineless Pilot community to side with those wanting to hurt our colleagues.
It is not a theory. A couple of years ago I hired a very well respected Law firm to find out what the legislation is regarding pilots whi are " self employed".
I suggest anyone who is in a situation where Tax predators want your skin do the same and attack the taxman if they want your hard earned money.
Contractors are victims, not criminals. And it is typical for the spineless Pilot community to side with those wanting to hurt our colleagues.
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Contractors are victims, not criminals. And it is typical for the spineless Pilot community to side with those wanting to hurt our colleagues
On one level contractors are victims, as new hires are forced into an arrangement they know little about and can come back to haunt them when things go awry.
However, those contractors who willfully cross the border and think they won't be noticed I don't have much sympathy for.
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Victims. Utter tosh. Whilst employing contract pilots for the long term is dubious legally speaking and moves across EU will show this to be the case, the pilots are not "victims". If they pay full tax as a contractor then they have nothing to fear but if not they do so knowingly and are happy to take the short term advantage it offers.
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Victims or not..
From what i can tell it very much depends on the nationality of the said pilot! I would guess 90% of uk/dutch/german/ scandi's want a full time fr contract. Southern med and eastern europeans love contracting.
Must be a mentality thing, and by no means scientifically proven!
From what i can tell it very much depends on the nationality of the said pilot! I would guess 90% of uk/dutch/german/ scandi's want a full time fr contract. Southern med and eastern europeans love contracting.
Must be a mentality thing, and by no means scientifically proven!
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In two of my previous lives:
1. Working for a long-haul cargo operator whereas the crews were contracted (paid) for 80 block hours per month whilst subject to JAR FTL's ... The majority, working away from their home domiciles, all they wanted to do was rack up the 80 hours as quickly as possible before legging it back to N. America, Germany or wherever, alas the JAR FTL's often scuppered their plans, all were 'self-employed' individuals but I doubt that any of them were paying tax/social security as I wasn't paying either.
2. As as 'in charge' of an agency flight crew recruitment, generally speaking we met two types of contractor flight crew, the genuine and/or younger naive who just wanted to work and we dictated to them the self employed nonsense and the 'professional contractor' who knew the loopholes as a matter of course and had no intention of ever paying tax/social security if they could get away with it.
Reading previously regarding McGinley, I worked for the previous agency that McGinley bought, I know the Ryanair contract that they entered in to because it was the one that I had previously worked, and Ryanair contracts, for an agency, were only worth entering in to if it was in volume, I mean a volume, rather than just a handful, of pilots placed.
Just another contract of that agency revenued EUR15,600.00 per annum per Captain and EUR10,800.00 per First Officer and these were typical of industry rates, on the other hand hand Ryanair dictated an agency rate of EUR8.00 per block hour per Captain and EUR5.00 per First Officer thus based on an absolute maximum of 900 hours per annum then just EUR7,200.00 per Captain and EUR4,500.00 per First Officer per annum ... not worth entertaining unless in volume!
McGinley didn't have that volume, Brookfield had the volume and with Ryanair's previous HR manager 'Declan' at the helm, Brookfield would jump through Ryanair's hoops because they were sleeping together, McGinley would jump through the hoops because they were always playing 'catch up'!
1. Working for a long-haul cargo operator whereas the crews were contracted (paid) for 80 block hours per month whilst subject to JAR FTL's ... The majority, working away from their home domiciles, all they wanted to do was rack up the 80 hours as quickly as possible before legging it back to N. America, Germany or wherever, alas the JAR FTL's often scuppered their plans, all were 'self-employed' individuals but I doubt that any of them were paying tax/social security as I wasn't paying either.
2. As as 'in charge' of an agency flight crew recruitment, generally speaking we met two types of contractor flight crew, the genuine and/or younger naive who just wanted to work and we dictated to them the self employed nonsense and the 'professional contractor' who knew the loopholes as a matter of course and had no intention of ever paying tax/social security if they could get away with it.
Reading previously regarding McGinley, I worked for the previous agency that McGinley bought, I know the Ryanair contract that they entered in to because it was the one that I had previously worked, and Ryanair contracts, for an agency, were only worth entering in to if it was in volume, I mean a volume, rather than just a handful, of pilots placed.
Just another contract of that agency revenued EUR15,600.00 per annum per Captain and EUR10,800.00 per First Officer and these were typical of industry rates, on the other hand hand Ryanair dictated an agency rate of EUR8.00 per block hour per Captain and EUR5.00 per First Officer thus based on an absolute maximum of 900 hours per annum then just EUR7,200.00 per Captain and EUR4,500.00 per First Officer per annum ... not worth entertaining unless in volume!
McGinley didn't have that volume, Brookfield had the volume and with Ryanair's previous HR manager 'Declan' at the helm, Brookfield would jump through Ryanair's hoops because they were sleeping together, McGinley would jump through the hoops because they were always playing 'catch up'!