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SAS to open new AOC in... Ireland

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SAS to open new AOC in... Ireland

Old 1st Feb 2018, 18:59
  #221 (permalink)  
Join Date: Oct 2017
Location: Fiji
Posts: 65
Im not at SAIL but I have been up in Helsinki during winter to operate for a local airline there. I don't think Scandinavian winters are something special, I would more say its easier than central european.

If the snow falls in Arlanda, so what? where is the problem? They are professionals in handling the snow, deicing, getting the airbus computers to work when its cold. Sure, braking action "good" isnt always good, its sometimes medium to poor, but we´re talking about an A320 landing, not Mriya A225 ! Same as the tailwind on "14" in LSZH. 3 knot tail on ATIS; 15 in real. Local specials you need to adapt to....
Its so easy flying up north in the winter in my opinion.

Imagine FCO, 5 cm of snow. They first need to get all deicers from the coffee machine , and every pilot is scared of taxiing on Ice/Snow so the whole airport would breakdown. Same in germany, france etc. its always a surprise that the winter starts in december....
If you have drifted a bit with cars in the alps on snow you know how an aircraft handles and that you need to make smooth inputs and be relaxed and not afraid.

So SAIL pilots are skilled exactly as other pilots. They're for sure doing a great job.
gnarlberg is offline  
Old 2nd Feb 2018, 06:40
  #222 (permalink)  
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Up high
Posts: 542
You can "imagine" FCO in snow if you like but the reality on the day is that FCO is sunny and Helsinki is +SN BA Medium Medium Poor and so is every alternate around Helsinki
Elephant and Castle is offline  
Old 2nd Feb 2018, 09:50
  #223 (permalink)  
Join Date: Aug 2015
Location: North
Posts: 27
Easy places

ARN, HEL, OSL are the easy airports to operate to, try going to TOS, BOO, KKN, ALF or OSD for that matter in real winter ops and I would think you would revise the easy part...
Icejock is offline  
Old 2nd Feb 2018, 13:14
  #224 (permalink)  
Join Date: Feb 2017
Location: Central Europe
Posts: 33
You'll be speaking to deaf ears, mate. With the CoS on offer, most of the recruits will be all over the place, picture Bambi on wet ice! Left, right, centre, with SAS painted on the tail! The greatest question of all it - who will be held accountable! The low substandard paid Commander for sure, but what about upper management? Who will that be? Who's the accountable manager?
returnofthemack is offline  
Old 2nd Feb 2018, 20:09
  #225 (permalink)  
Join Date: Feb 2001
Location: Cloud 7
Posts: 74

Aside from me understanding and respecting that You have mouths to feed, the rest of Your statement and many other SAIL pilots with You is utter rubish.
You are looking out for number one and in no way are You helping SAS.

We have seen it all before with Spanair, Blue One et al. Companies with lower operating cost due to heavy subsidies from the mother ship, created only to put pressure on mainline T&C's. Nothing good will come from SAIL except a few unfortunate pilots able to feed their families for a while. SAIL is a cancer in SAS and the sooner its gone the better.
heavydane is offline  
Old 2nd Feb 2018, 22:24
  #226 (permalink)  
Join Date: Feb 2017
Location: Central Europe
Posts: 33
Cheers to that! BUT again, speaking to ignorant deaf ears! Hey these suckers just took on a pathetic contract and now work for a "legacy" carrier.. Oh boy, if only they knew how the rest of the world actually look at them, in their pretty SAS uniforms... "The same standard.." yeahhhh.
returnofthemack is offline  
Old 3rd Feb 2018, 10:11
  #227 (permalink)  
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Germany
Posts: 3
Does anybody know what kind of assessment SAIL is running, for Cpt?
Tick Hunter is offline  
Old 3rd Feb 2018, 18:02
  #228 (permalink)  
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Between a rock and a hard place
Posts: 1,013
This isn’t a pissing contest (or shouldn’t be) who’s got higher standards. Flying northern Norway and you’ll benefit from the wisdom of those who’ve done so before. And good handling skills is needed.
172_driver is online now  
Old 3rd Feb 2018, 18:31
  #229 (permalink)  
Join Date: Feb 2017
Location: Central Europe
Posts: 33
Originally Posted by Tick Hunter View Post
Does anybody know what kind of assessment SAIL is running, for Cpt?
According to the wisdom of some individuals around these areas, it's the same high standard as mainline SAS... Obviously these people must have tried both! When I come to think of it, they probably failed the mainline assessment and went onto have a go at SAIL... LoL
returnofthemack is offline  
Old 3rd Feb 2018, 18:43
  #230 (permalink)  
Join Date: May 2000
Posts: 338
Before Monarch failed, failure rate for the SAIL sim assessment was running at 40%.

So I reckon there are some high standards on the line.

Oh, I know several people who got into BA on the 4th attempt. Yet people think it's full of the best and elite.
ATIS is offline  
Old 3rd Feb 2018, 19:14
  #231 (permalink)  
Join Date: Oct 2017
Location: Fiji
Posts: 65
but since SAS isnt recruiting in core since 2 years, we don't need to discuss about this.
I´m updating my application since 2015 and no change so far. hoping for the best.
gnarlberg is offline  
Old 3rd Feb 2018, 19:55
  #232 (permalink)  
Join Date: Feb 2018
Location: Sussex
Posts: 3
I am one of the SAIL Captains. Yes I was a loyal ex Monarch employee, and being British I wanted to fly in my home country. Ex military and 22 years mainly long haul and I’m no where near the most experienced in SAIL. Our experience level smashes Easy and others into another universe. Anyone with any doubts about the ability, and capability of the workforce should spend time in the winter in the US, Canada, Innsbruck etc etc if they doubt our abilities to operate in cold weather. As for standards, as previously said on here, the selection failure rate prior to the demise of Monarch was over 50%, guess what it’s virtually nil now and before you ask, no, not all the examiners are ex Monarch!

Is it fair to SAS Mainline Pilots, possibly not, but my experience of 35 years in professional aviation has shown me clearly the disparity that exists in European airlines and who gets jobs in them. Most UK airlines have many pilots from all European countries. My UK colleagues are basically excluded from all the major European carriers no second third language etc etc. Yes this is the reality like it or not.

Is the airline working? oh yes, we are under a massive microscope and one initial factor is OTP and guess what we are doing better than our mainline colleagues despite the best efforts of the ground based handling individuals to sabotage that. I am one of the fortunate ones in this sorry industry, I fly because I choose to, not because I have to. I do have many friends who are less fortunate and a jobs a job. Ask yourself this, if your mortgage arrears were growing, your wife and children were increasingly upset, would you really not take the SAIL job, based on your principals?

Will it succeed, I don’t know, I’ll have hung my boots up by then, as this is my last (only second) job and I’ll sit back and watch as the reality of the future in this industry unfolds, knowing I had some of the true best of it.
2802th is offline  
Old 4th Feb 2018, 08:01
  #233 (permalink)  
Join Date: Feb 2017
Location: Central Europe
Posts: 33
Sorry about Monarch going down and leaving you without a job.

Just know one thing, if you don't already, that SAIL is just another race to the bottom experiment from SAS. It's a union busting exercise.

Luckily for your, by the sound of it, you'll have left this industry before the next "great" thing happens. Welcome to taking on the job that actively helps erode the industry, not that I blame you for you're desperation after Monarch, just don't expect everybody else to endorse it.

Guess what? in 5-10 years SAIL will be deemed too expensive and what will management do? Can you guess it?
returnofthemack is offline  
Old 4th Feb 2018, 12:55
  #234 (permalink)  
Join Date: Dec 2017
Location: Uk
Posts: 8

You avoided answering the question though, about what you would do, if God forbid, you found yourself in the same position......bills to be paid, wife/kids upset etc.

Or would you put your principles before your family?
Graybulls is offline  
Old 4th Feb 2018, 14:43
  #235 (permalink)  
Join Date: Nov 2015
Location: Next door but one
Posts: 71
“ I fly because I choose to, not because ..”

Everyone chooses to fly , then figures out the logistics later.

Being loyal to a company is like a long time holder of a stock . Should I sell cos its down or hold n hope it gets better.

The old Monarch guys couldn’t let go of the seniority and pension perks. Young guys were logging the hours as fast as they could. But the writing was on the lavatory wall for years.

Its the senior FOs who have been shafted . No pensions and no left hand experiences.
Start from scratch.
fly4more is offline  
Old 4th Feb 2018, 15:07
  #236 (permalink)  
Join Date: Jun 2014
Location: Mordor
Posts: 251
Let me start with saying, that I attended SAIL selection last year and passed it. However, I decided to decline the contract, because it was crap. I also felt didn’t want to be involved in a conflict between the management and the Mainline Pilots.

However, after reading the comments above, presumably from SAS Mainline guys, about how high standards they have and how everyone else is crap, I have lost all the sympathy. What do you know about standards of other airlines and pilots, if you have only flown for one ol’Boys club, where everyone is patting each other on the back and telling themselves how good they are?

You are flying same airplanes as everyone else, in the same sky, to the same destinations, using same procedures and in the same regulatory framework, under supervision of the same CAA. What makes you think you are better pilots than others? With attitude like this, you deserve to be shafted.

P.S. this also pertains to some “astronauts“ from other major/legacy airlines. If you guys want support for your case, you first need to get of your high horse...
Sidestick_n_Rudder is offline  
Old 4th Feb 2018, 15:38
  #237 (permalink)  
Join Date: Jun 2016
Location: Earth
Posts: 21
I think most pilots in europe can press the autopilot buttons to a similar standard these days.....
maxpeck is offline  
Old 4th Feb 2018, 17:27
  #238 (permalink)  
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Between a rock and a hard place
Posts: 1,013
I think the thread has run its course.

I started it as another manifestation of what union busting/employee shafting looks like. It wasn’t about who’s got the highest standards. Mainline crew is sceptical about management decision to drop the Scandinavian in SAS, yes... but that was done before SAIL got off the ground. Now sub-contracting is being sold to the cheapest bidder.

I am more concerned about the leadership and ethics of my employer. They took care of us. Latest actions (and there is more to it than SAIL) show their true colors. I for one which nothing bad upon any individual, but I do hope that SAIL is a short lived story. Not to stick it to anyone. Just to stop the shafting of the employees and its union. They haven’t been unreasonable in any way, just mere wage increases to keep in line with inflation. Most demands have come from management.
172_driver is online now  
Old 4th Feb 2018, 17:40
  #239 (permalink)  
Join Date: Feb 2018
Location: Sussex
Posts: 3
Correct me if I’m wrong, but all I said was the experience level of the pilots accepting positions in SAIL is higher than the industry average. This is obviously because an airline with very long term career pilots has gone bust, which as someone else on here eluded to is a bonus for the SAIL recruitment team.
Any 5/4 contract for a U.K. based pilot, not wanting the modern day version of long haul, living 1hour from LHR is a dream. Crap is an interesting term 150k in China is great until the divorce and the wife keeps the house! That’s crap. Again I speak with personal experience of 35 years in this industry and with many friends working in all corners of this industry, ranging from Senior management to F/O’s.

FWIW the general concensus amongst the guys and girls I’m flying with is it’s a very pleasant place to be, New A/C, high standards, good destinations and a feeling of belonging. Yes the Ts and Cs need improving but that is achievable.
2802th is offline  
Old 4th Feb 2018, 18:19
  #240 (permalink)  
Join Date: Feb 2017
Location: Central Europe
Posts: 33
Don't worry, it will be short lived - at least they didn't name it Snowflake (google it together with SAS - it lasted a hole year, so I guess SAIL can only do better!) - that came and left as quick as a snowflake. Too bad for the good guys that are joining this SAILing project, hoping for the best. But then again, I hope and suspect at lot of the SAILing joiners are just there for a tempo job (who else would accept the substandard contract), until something better (not hard!) comes along! Good luck with that project.

Now have a laugh at this link, and imagine "Snowflake" renamed "SAS Ireland";https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Snowflake_(airline) - google snowflake SAS
returnofthemack is offline  

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