SAS Ireland SAIL

[2unlimited]

Now I fully support mainland SAS in their quest for improved conditions.
However I do wonder on one thing, that SAS is a seniority based company has created many issues as you can't get employed as a DEC. Is this some of the reason that SAIL got established, in addition to have a backup for SAS main company, where they could have more flexibility when hiring pilots to operate their aircraft?

I personally believe the seniority based companies create more damage for themselves by trying to fight for this model, as they will not be able to attract the best people for the jobs, only the ones willing to accept substandard Terms and Conditions.

I know many Scandinavians who would not mind working for SAS, and moving "home", but why would they leave a well paid Captain job to come and work as a FO for 10 - 15 years?
The way I see it is that the SAS seniority system suppresses their recruitment, as they will only employ people willing to accept worse and worse TC's, as it has been lowered over the years

[172_driver]

Don't underestimate the power of coming home, getting based where you intend to live. Especially as the Scandinavian countries are very family friendly. People come home for that reason..

You might be right though that some good candidates are lost in the process.

SAS is not an expanding airline, hence no need for DEC. Seniority vs no-seniority, I have tried both. I favour seniority. But you should get in early, the earlier the better.

[2unlimited]

I agree getting based "home" is probably the most important part in this job. But the way SAS operate has made it "impossible" for some very good experienced guys to return home.
I don't know what the starter pay is now, but I would imagine it would be 75% pay cut for a skipper to come and join in the right hand seat.

The ones I know at best end up working part time / and commuting, and it still works out better than starting Ground Zero at SAS.
The options are unfortunately limited purely for economical reasons.

However I wonder if the creation of SAIL could have been avoided if they had been willing to change the current seniority system that exists, as SAIL in itself is a threat to anyone working main SAS company.
Also I find it strange that SAS are not able to provide a fixed roster pattern, as I understand this is one of the main reasons for their strike.
Is there some kind of seniority bidding system with SAS for flights?

[Whisperfail]

psst,,, look a few posts up. Starter pay is around 3500. With a rating in place and some experience I guess it’s around 3900 with per diem and all “extras” included.

[2unlimited]

It's not the worst, but not the best either. But it will not attract many who want to move "home", when they are making 3 times this money as a skipper. How many would be willing to take such a massive pay cut? Even FO's in LCC, makes nearly twice that amount.

[172_driver]

Per diem is not included in that amount. There are no "extras" interms of money.

[Whisperfail]

Actually the per diem is included in that number. The per diem varies but is usually between 150-450€.
And you are right, there is no extras. That’s why all the “extras” are included.

[2unlimited]

Considering the cost of living in Scandinavia that is not very good. Is that amount net after tax? I am assuming those figures are Euros.
How long will it take for an FO to come up to 5000 - 6000 Euros a month? I assume there is some payscale increase every year.
How long to get command?

[matt283]

PU working for orange factory in Italy is making the same money as SAS FO in Scandinavia 😳😳😳

[Banana Joe]

Can't believe those numbers when it's with SAS. I'm currently making that after tax with a very good employer and I fly only 25 hours per month on average
Out of curiosity, what's the yearly increment according to the payscale? Time to command on short haul and long haul?

[CaptainProp]

easyJet SFOs take home is between €5000-6000 on French/German/Italian contracts, a bit depending on season (number of hours flown) and family and tax status.

[waffler]

That’s probably why SAS pilots are on strike, to improve those amounts.

[Banana Joe]

How much are pilots earning at SAIL with CAE?

[172_driver]

Can't believe those numbers when it's with SAS. I'm currently making that after tax with a very good employer and I fly only 25 hours per month on average
Out of curiosity, what's the yearly increment according to the payscale? Time to command on short haul and long haul?

You better believe it now.

In Sweden, start at about 3500 EUR and finish at 9000 EUR gross (current exchange rate doesn't favour Swedish pilots). It's not a straight linear increase, but close to.

Per diem comes as extra and can work out to about 6-700 EUR net, if you stay away frome home a lot. They've even sold us out on the free breakfast

SAS is not really an expanding airline, time to command will vary depending on a whole set of other circumstances. Used to be about 20 years. Now it's been down to short of 6 years.

[Whisperfail]

The payscales are slightly different in the three Nordic countries, but is somewhere around those number up there. At the moment, as 172 said, it’s actually only 5-6 years to upgrade at one base. But on another it’s 20+ years. The salary for new upgrades is about 6–7000€ including per diem. But they are forced to work 80% which make them only get 80% of that amount.

Any captain at sail working 4/5 that have 5,600€ you think?

[polax52]

Originally Posted by 172_driver

They'd have to move base to ARN, OSL or CPH and learn the language, to start with. Then start at the bottom of the seniority list, there's no by passing. It's a career airline, people apply and intend to stay.

I would expect flexibility on the base and the language. Then agree a separate base seniority list but no further out of company seniority recruitment to that base. It's easy...🙄

[2unlimited]

Originally Posted by Whisperfail

The payscales are slightly different in the three Nordic countries, but is somewhere around those number up there. At the moment, as 172 said, it’s actually only 5-6 years to upgrade at one base. But on another it’s 20+ years. The salary for new upgrades is about 6–7000€ including per diem. But they are forced to work 80% which make them only get 80% of that amount.

Any captain at sail working 4/5 that have 5,600€ you think?

Is that salary net, I assume it is.
SFO's at easy make 5000 - 6000 Euro after tax + Bonus + Shares + Fixed Pattern Roster + Pension (some countries have better deals than others regarding pensions)

I personally see very little positives with the seniority system, unless of course you have been in the company for many years. It makes recruitment very limited, and it gives the company excuses to lower TC's for new recruits.
I believe much of the reason SAIL saw daylight, was to give SAS more flexibility with regards to recruitment.

The one thing I have never liked with SAS is the way they have conducted their recruitment the last 6 - 7 years, as it has been to much of who your know, and who you are related to in the company to get a chance of a job there.
Specially Klaus in their recruitment team, he was a real joker, and not in a good way.

[Icejock]

All salaries in Scandinavia are quoted as gross salaries.

[ZAV]

I thought SAS guys had additional perks such as high pensions etc? Anyway they have the advantages of working from home . Plenty of other jobs out there paying much higher rates , just have to move away. However in my view the unions have overstepped the mark a quick effective strike would have had effect but now SAS management will bear this in mind and expect to see more SAIL like structures and wet leases. If any of you remember look what happened to Sabena. The unions thought they had won the day only to find upon return to work Sabena finished and all doors locked. The amount of money this is costing SAS makes it even more difficult for the management to meet their demands.

[flyingmed]

Everyone knows SAIL was set up as a bogus model to circumnavigate the Scandinavian labour laws and undermine the union of mainline SAS, if anyone stands for those methods then you are probably part of the problem with bogus flying jobs in Europe and helping the race to the bottom.

Those complaining of no DEC in SAS, that is a ridiculous complaint, do like all the other SAS pilots and join the queue.

Good luck to all the pilots in SAS!