TP Command or Jet F/O?
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: CY??
Posts: 111
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Perhaps not of your concern yet, what's the future lifestyle prospects in the two different jobs? I left a low cost carrier (left seat) for a career airline (right seat) where I can get part time to be with kids, part time for studying, summer holidays, proper seniroty list and a whole range of other benefits. Your situation may be entirely different to mine, it's however a perspective to consider.
Join Date: Nov 2000
Location: Puken
Posts: 358
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
The company I work for (LH Heavy twins) actually likes ex-TP pilots as generally you get a more rounded pilot than someone who has spent all their time on A320s/737s since cadet training.
I think the TP 'snobbery' is a legacy thing, when jets were a real handful and would bite quickly. Modern jets have fewer vices than their TP counterparts.
That said, an offer of an A320 rating is golden. Not many fly the ATR.....
The ATR is probably more rewarding to fly but you've done that. Go start building a career and get the 'Bus on your licence.
I think the TP 'snobbery' is a legacy thing, when jets were a real handful and would bite quickly. Modern jets have fewer vices than their TP counterparts.
That said, an offer of an A320 rating is golden. Not many fly the ATR.....
The ATR is probably more rewarding to fly but you've done that. Go start building a career and get the 'Bus on your licence.
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: Uk
Posts: 110
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Depends also on the company size and ambition that you applied to. Are you still happy flying the ATR or is it time for something else? A320 self sponsoren TR sounds like easyjet. I would seriously consider taking that step. You probably have a few hours on the ATR so you can enter the command proces pretty much straight away. Does the company require lots of upgrades? If its easy then yes for sure. Probably 2-3 years and you have your command on a 320. If the money is kind of the same then its an easy decision. Look at it on the long term.
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: Wor Yerm
Age: 68
Posts: 4
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Its all about your family, your friends and where you want to live and your working life. I'll shortly be retiring, so I don't have a dog in this fight. But I do know of of many others. I know many people who fly massive shiny jets to far off places, earn a fortune and are as miserable as sin and can not wait to get out. I know people who fly A320s for loco operators and they earn good money but are knackered every night. I know others who fly 737s for a certain gentleman and they like the stable roster but hate the company. I also know another group who rather enjoy flying some rather old and knackered silver and red 737s and they appear to be the happiest of the jet pilots. But the overall, the most satisfied are the TP drivers.
One thing is clear, flying is not what what is was and if it doesn't change its ways it will be one of the jobs (it's certainly not a profession) that is best done by others. The fun has gone, the lifestyle has gone and in its current form it is corrosive on family life. So if you have to fly, work out where you want to live, with whom you want to live and take employment that fits with your goals. Jets are vanity, lifestyle is sanity.
One thing is clear, flying is not what what is was and if it doesn't change its ways it will be one of the jobs (it's certainly not a profession) that is best done by others. The fun has gone, the lifestyle has gone and in its current form it is corrosive on family life. So if you have to fly, work out where you want to live, with whom you want to live and take employment that fits with your goals. Jets are vanity, lifestyle is sanity.
Join Date: Feb 2012
Location: europe
Age: 46
Posts: 16
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
@Piltdown Man : this is one of the best short summary I've seen recently about the profession. Spot on. (my only comment : don't forget the boys and girls in the cargo world - some cannot take it but the ones who manage to get used to it would never look anywhere else - because of the lifestyle and roster - so we can add them to the "happy camp")
Been there done that - command experience, just like flying experience generally does not only come from the hours but from the number of sectors you do as commander and also from the years, the years spent in the business actually seeing different things and hearing about different things. Keeping this in mind I would never turn down any command opportunity. You will always be able to get a jet job (maybe 1 or 2 years in the RHS first) after flying as a TP captain and I guarantee you will be in a much more solid position as an experienced person when the time comes to switch seats in the jet.
You can always buy a type rating but it is not possible to buy command experience, and keep in mind command experience is also a long term investment.
Been there done that - command experience, just like flying experience generally does not only come from the hours but from the number of sectors you do as commander and also from the years, the years spent in the business actually seeing different things and hearing about different things. Keeping this in mind I would never turn down any command opportunity. You will always be able to get a jet job (maybe 1 or 2 years in the RHS first) after flying as a TP captain and I guarantee you will be in a much more solid position as an experienced person when the time comes to switch seats in the jet.
You can always buy a type rating but it is not possible to buy command experience, and keep in mind command experience is also a long term investment.
Last edited by goodpic; 31st Dec 2016 at 16:47. Reason: forgot something
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: U.K.
Age: 49
Posts: 77
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Jet command (eventually) opens far more doors globally than TP do, fact ! Be brave step out of your comfort zone, I'm 99.9% sure you won't look back !! (The odd one or two do) !! Everyone who I know who has been faced with your dilemma (including myself) have no regrets after choosing the jet job. Good luck with your decision, you're lucky to have it !!
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: UK
Posts: 379
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Quite right regarding lifestyle. .
Play the long game, i.e. - where do you see yourself career-wise? If the TP operation suits you in terms of the lifestyle and pay it gives you, as well as job security etc, then why not stay put? I think most of us tho are ambitious individuals and most, I would say aim for a swept wing jet of some sort, so why tread water in some respects by taking the command?
Put it this way - say a colleague of yours in the same position as you decided to take the FO jet job, while you took the command, and then a few years later you decide to follow suit. Depending on recruitment, your colleague could have years on you regarding seniority and time to command. I've seen it in my airline, and I'm sure this scenario isn't an isolated case.
Worth bearing in mind - you're still young. I was flying ATR at your age, moved to FO jet, then command jet by my mid-30's... I'm now back in the right on LH and still a long way to go before retirement . . . .
All depends on your circumstances tho and market forces are very hard to predict, particularly in this job!
Good luck.
Play the long game, i.e. - where do you see yourself career-wise? If the TP operation suits you in terms of the lifestyle and pay it gives you, as well as job security etc, then why not stay put? I think most of us tho are ambitious individuals and most, I would say aim for a swept wing jet of some sort, so why tread water in some respects by taking the command?
Put it this way - say a colleague of yours in the same position as you decided to take the FO jet job, while you took the command, and then a few years later you decide to follow suit. Depending on recruitment, your colleague could have years on you regarding seniority and time to command. I've seen it in my airline, and I'm sure this scenario isn't an isolated case.
Worth bearing in mind - you're still young. I was flying ATR at your age, moved to FO jet, then command jet by my mid-30's... I'm now back in the right on LH and still a long way to go before retirement . . . .
All depends on your circumstances tho and market forces are very hard to predict, particularly in this job!
Good luck.
Join Date: May 2011
Location: Uk
Posts: 11
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Best advice I ever got (unfortunately a bit late in my career) was to think carefully about where you want to living when you're 60 and then work your decisions backwards from there.
Nemo Me Impune Lacessit
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Derbyshire, England.
Posts: 4,091
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Never underestimate the value of command time on a multi crew aircraft. An old saying way back when was, "A command on anything is better than FO on anything" and I believe that to be true. Once you have a couple of years of command under your belt you become a much more attractive package to a future employer.
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Mmmm
Posts: 6
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Mmmm, jobs come and go, in the jet world and in the turbo prop world. 5, 10, 20 years time a good home base job could be gone. So you have to live away/commute, would you rather do it on T/P or Jet pay? Never met anyone who regrets going on a jet. Part time is something to look at in the future - pay and time off balance. Also you could always go back, moving on may not be an option.
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Where the company needs me not where I want to be!
Posts: 399
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
A320 or B737 rating and you should never be out of work.
However I'd take a C152 if I had the mortgage paid.
I'd just say sit down and draw your ideal life plan then plot which avenue is most likely to take you there and that's your answer.
However I'd take a C152 if I had the mortgage paid.
I'd just say sit down and draw your ideal life plan then plot which avenue is most likely to take you there and that's your answer.
Join Date: Nov 2014
Location: UK
Posts: 17
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I can see we're making that mistake of trying to distinguish differences between the turboprop or jet lifestyle however we are really talking about regional, low cost, mainline etc. Some of the best airlines around are regional operators who do happen to operate modern glass turboprop aircraft like the ATR 72-600 in addition to regional "jets". I actually see many guys looking to "upgrade" from the low cost carriers to the regionals for a number of reasons already highlighted in this thread (me being one of them). However many don't get accepted as they have no previous turboprop experience. I've personally found that the RATE of pay in a good regional carrier (within Europe) is actually higher than the LCC's which tends to get missed.
The "equipment" you fly can be a separate issue really. The likes of the ATR 72-600, Airbus 320, Boeing 737 etc are all on a level playing field, all good types to have on the licence. I could actually argue that the ATR is the best type to have at the moment for a number of reasons. If you like a challenge then the ATR is actually one of the most difficult aircraft to operate compared to the likes of the DHC8, A320, 737 etc.
So, a command upgrade opportunity on an ATR is as good as any other type out there. Don't be fooled into thinking that moving to an LCC or mainline operator is progression, I can assure you that it's not. You're lucky to be within a regional carrier already, progression is taking command then moving into a training position for example. You'll be in a better position for moving into a better regional airline if it suits.
The "equipment" you fly can be a separate issue really. The likes of the ATR 72-600, Airbus 320, Boeing 737 etc are all on a level playing field, all good types to have on the licence. I could actually argue that the ATR is the best type to have at the moment for a number of reasons. If you like a challenge then the ATR is actually one of the most difficult aircraft to operate compared to the likes of the DHC8, A320, 737 etc.
So, a command upgrade opportunity on an ATR is as good as any other type out there. Don't be fooled into thinking that moving to an LCC or mainline operator is progression, I can assure you that it's not. You're lucky to be within a regional carrier already, progression is taking command then moving into a training position for example. You'll be in a better position for moving into a better regional airline if it suits.
Join Date: Nov 2014
Location: UK
Posts: 17
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I've taught many guys coming off other types (both jets & turboprops) and they've all said the ATR is the most difficult aircraft type rating they have done.
Just to name a few of the main issues I've observed:
Operating speeds - Even very experienced ATR drivers will struggle to explain the various speeds on this aircraft, in particular when operating in icing conditions.
Icing Conditions - The ATR has a long list of procedures (both normal & emergency) for entering / leaving atmospheric icing conditions, ice accretion, ground icing, de-icing, you name it.
EFATO / FIRE etc - The single engine profile and/or engine fire at takeoff is relatively complicated. In addition, it's actually the lack of performance which is the real problem. If you're heavy and in icing conditions your speed control / handling during the EFATO has to be spot on. Throw in an autofeather failure and you're really in for a treat.
Powerplant - This is not really specific to the ATR as such as I'm sure the Dash 8 will be similar in this respect but the powerplant abnormal / failure section in the QRH is particularly long. There's simply a lot more that can go wrong when you add in those huge variable pitch fans.
Interestingly, the latest OSD (OEB) now actually requires a minimum experience level (500 hours from memory) before even starting the type rating, otherwise the type rating course is effectively twice as long. This has actually come from ATR as they were struggling to get guys through the type rating.
Just to name a few of the main issues I've observed:
Operating speeds - Even very experienced ATR drivers will struggle to explain the various speeds on this aircraft, in particular when operating in icing conditions.
Icing Conditions - The ATR has a long list of procedures (both normal & emergency) for entering / leaving atmospheric icing conditions, ice accretion, ground icing, de-icing, you name it.
EFATO / FIRE etc - The single engine profile and/or engine fire at takeoff is relatively complicated. In addition, it's actually the lack of performance which is the real problem. If you're heavy and in icing conditions your speed control / handling during the EFATO has to be spot on. Throw in an autofeather failure and you're really in for a treat.
Powerplant - This is not really specific to the ATR as such as I'm sure the Dash 8 will be similar in this respect but the powerplant abnormal / failure section in the QRH is particularly long. There's simply a lot more that can go wrong when you add in those huge variable pitch fans.
Interestingly, the latest OSD (OEB) now actually requires a minimum experience level (500 hours from memory) before even starting the type rating, otherwise the type rating course is effectively twice as long. This has actually come from ATR as they were struggling to get guys through the type rating.
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: UK
Posts: 379
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
We're going off-topic here, but unless the ATR has changed drastically since I last flew it, I found it a very easy and forgiving aircraft to operate. All aircraft have their nuances - some more than others, but to say that an ATR is any more difficult to operate than an A320 or 737 is purely a matter of opinion.
Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: holding short of....
Posts: 24
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
If by switching to the Jets means a better income... Ironically by self funding the TR you are helping the airline industry in deteriorating the conditions.
Be a CPT in the TP company that you are needed and respected. Let the Jet companies suffer from the need of pilots, let them realize how much value you are for them and let them come back with a proper invitation. At the end a job is a job... You get paid to work not the other way around.
Be a CPT in the TP company that you are needed and respected. Let the Jet companies suffer from the need of pilots, let them realize how much value you are for them and let them come back with a proper invitation. At the end a job is a job... You get paid to work not the other way around.
