Command upgrades at Jet2

[DarkSoldier]

Would anyone who is either in Jet2 currently or been there recently, or know about it, have any information on the upgrade process there please. More importantly things like:

- are upgrades actively encouraged?
- what is the process like, I have heard it is not that well defined and you are sort of left on your own to get through it
- are they hard on you and fail you for minor things or do they like to get guys through?

Basically...do I get CMD in RYR which I can soon, or (assuming I get an offer) do I try my luck in Jet2 and hope command will happen in a year or so...

Thanks

[VJW]

I'd advise doing the command in RYR first. Not that I suspect it's easier, but makes up your mind if you fail the RYR command. Plus going from RYR to Jet2 as a Captain would be easier as you'd be more 'valuable' to Jet2..

[Johnny F@rt Pants]

- are upgrades actively encouraged?

- Absolutely

- what is the process like, I have heard it is not that well defined and you are sort of left on your own to get through it

- I don't think you are left completely on your own, there is a new (and still developing) upgrade process in place. Some of the work is done on your lonesome, but there are mentors that can be assigned to guide you along the way.

- are they hard on you and fail you for minor things or do they like to get guys through?

- in my opinion they try to get guys through. Define "minor things" and I might be able to answer, also, where are these "minor things" happening? If the "minor thing" is in your LPC, then you will probably have to repeat it, just like any ordinary LPC, if it's during the discussions during the upgrade process then no, it will be discussed and a correct answer will be achieved.

Basically...do I get CMD in RYR which I can soon, or (assuming I get an offer) do I try my luck in Jet2 and hope command will happen in a year or so...

- there's really only you can answer that. Look at the Jet2 Autumn 2014 thread lower down this page and start at about page 45 of that, plenty of why's and wherefore's on there regarding FR vs Jet2.

[DDobinpilot]

If Jet2 offers you a better lifestyle I would say go for it, take Jet2 and nail the command course in a years time, if your plan is to enter Jet2 as a captain I assume they operate out of a base you want or would offer you a better lifestyle than RYR.

I tend not to subscribe to these various rumours that the X airline command course is difficult, or you have to avoid such and such a training captain or you'll fail etc, you'll end up calling in sick for half of your checks if you subscribe to that sort of thinking, and generally try and go in with the attitude that they want you to pass and it is yours to fail. I can appreciate that much of it is luck of the draw, if you have a complicated problem come up whilst on the initial command line check or bad weather etc but that's the nature of the job I suppose.

[zerotohero]

A year in Jet2 to get on a command course is extreamly optimistic in my opinion. You will need 2 sims before even getting your name in the hat then there will be a good 6months to a year to get on a development week. Then a few other hoops.

By which time you have done your RYR command and got 1000hrs left seat and Jet2 will Hoover you up as a DEC and you will get your base of choice and double your potential Jet2 F/O salary

I know what I would do!
Oh wait I did that!

[Johnny F@rt Pants]

I suppose it depends on where they send you for the Command and whether that is an acceptable trade off.

[Mr Good Cat]

I guess it's relative to what you're used to.

I've no experience of Ryanair's training department but my limited experience of Jet 2's training in the short time I've been here is nothing but positive. I'm sure there are the bad eggs that exist in all companies but on the whole it's very training-orientated, especially compared to legacy carriers in the Middle/Far East.

I've heard things were not this way in the distant past and maybe that tarnishes the reputation of the training department even now, which is a shame. Had the pleasure to meet the training management and a lot of the trainers and they've all been great guys.

If I can offer one piece of advice it would be this:

Prepare 110% for your command course and put the effort in studying on your days off, going through every manual with a fine tooth comb making notes. When you get to the sim you'll feel more confident that you know your stuff and the instructors will see that you're willing to put the effort in to learn and correct any mistakes. If you turn up expecting to be 'taught' everything there is to the job of a Commander, then you have contradicted some of the qualities expected of a Commander. It doesn't exactly display good Leadership or Integrity. "Preparedness makes us powerful".

[Johnny F@rt Pants]

Is there any truth to the rumours of a 'checking/chopping' mentally in the training department?

Having quickly scanned through the last 10 pages of proficiency check results (there are 50 prof checks per page) I counted 3 fails. There is NO chopping mentality despite what some people think, we are there to help you as necessary to reach the standards should you not manage to do so at the first attempt, unfortunately there will always be some who, despite the guidance, still don't meet the required standard. Comprehensive retraining is provided to those candidates in order that they can then demonstrate the required standard.

[samca]

Hi guys, one question. Jet2 bond you even if you go as DEFO?

[Jumbo2]

Yeah they do.
I've read somewhere it is £7.5k for a rated FO, which seems rather high and makes you wonder if it is a means to tie people to the company for a few years and discourage them from leaving (having said that I've no idea what other companies do these days and it might be standard practice).

For a non rated FO it is still £25k+ I believe, but might be wrong.

As far as I'm aware there is no bond for internally upgraded FO's.

[samca]

Can not understand how a company bond a pilot with a type rating on the fleet he is going to fly. It is not fair. In that case I was looking for Alicante or maybe Palma de Mallorca and a change from RYR to JET2 but I think I´m going to continue looking for other options.

Thanks for the answer Jumbo2.

[CargoOne]

Originally Posted by samca

Can not understand how a company bond a pilot with a type rating on the fleet he is going to fly. It is not fair.

It is very fair indeed. You always forget to count how much company has spent on screening, sim assessment, convertion course - groung and sim, crm/wet/fire/first aid etc and finally on the line training. If you put that all together 7,5k sounds very reasonable to make sure people don't jump in a few weeks. All airlines hr/flt ops depts full of stories when pilots have left just after the line training completetion just because there was a couple of hundred quid better offer pop up around the corner.

[tubby linton]

It is not fair. Training costs can be recliamed by the employer!

"If an employee needs training as a necessity to carry out their job (so that the training is 'wholly, exclusively and necessarily incurred') then tax relief will be given. The key word here is 'necessarily' as unless the training is necessary, its cost is not deductible."

[samca]

Originally Posted by CargoOne

It is very fair indeed. You always forget to count how much company has spent on screening, sim assessment, convertion course - groung and sim, crm/wet/fire/first aid etc and finally on the line training. If you put that all together 7,5k sounds very reasonable to make sure people don't jump in a few weeks. All airlines hr/flt ops depts full of stories when pilots have left just after the line training completetion just because there was a couple of hundred quid better offer pop up around the corner.

No my friend it is not fair. In fact since the beginning of aviation companies everysingle expense in training has been paid by the company. And taking into account that you have type+experience on type there is no point to bond DEFO.

[FlightDetent]

tubbby: tax relief and re-claiming cost are as close as ... gear-down and touch-down?
samca: that's quite delusional.

[CargoOne]

Originally Posted by tubby linton

It is not fair. Training costs can be recliamed by the employer!

"If an employee needs training as a necessity to carry out their job (so that the training is 'wholly, exclusively and necessarily incurred') then tax relief will be given. The key word here is 'necessarily' as unless the training is necessary, its cost is not deductible."

Training costs cannot be reclaimed (unless this is a specific government initiative for poor regions development etc). Training costs are the same costs like fuel, landing fees or salaries. Majority of airline costs form the non-taxable base. I am not sure what tax relief has to do with bonding? Airline is not askig you to PAY the training, they just bond you to make sure they will not loose money if you suddenly decide to leave.

[CargoOne]

Originally Posted by samca

No my friend it is not fair. In fact since the beginning of aviation companies everysingle expense in training has been paid by the company

Yes that were the days when only BA and PanAm been operating between London and New York and both were happy to offer you a discounted economy roundtrip ticket for $6000 (adjusted for inflation to 2016 dollars). Unless you have a time machine better start getting used to nowadays reality.

[Jumbo2]

Originally Posted by CargoOne

It is very fair indeed. You always forget to count how much company has spent on screening, sim assessment, convertion course - groung and sim, crm/wet/fire/first aid etc and finally on the line training. If you put that all together 7,5k sounds very reasonable to make sure people don't jump in a few weeks. All airlines hr/flt ops depts full of stories when pilots have left just after the line training completetion just because there was a couple of hundred quid better offer pop up around the corner.

CargoOne, I do see your point with regards to the cost to the company. However if a company is that worried that people will leave straight after line training, or within a few months; Either their selection process has failed or more likely people don't like the way they have been treated. A famous quote says "Train people well enough so they can leave, treat them well enough so they don't".
Airlines resorting into using excessive bonds (and £7.5k for rated pilots personally seems rather high) could raise the question why, after joining, FO's were keen to leave the company so quickly (and have to redo a selection and OCC for the next operator).

[tubby linton]

My quote was from the following website.
Making Training Costs Tax Deductible Solicitors: Nottingham, Leicester and Derby UK

[JPJP]

Originally Posted by CargoOne

Yes that were the days when only BA and PanAm been operating between London and New York and both were happy to offer you a discounted economy roundtrip ticket for $6000 (adjusted for inflation to 2016 dollars). Unless you have a time machine better start getting used to nowadays reality.

Respectfully, that's absolute twaddle. The airline makes you pay for your training/bond because they can. They can, because 'you' are willing to pay.

Do any of the four largest airlines, or low cost carriers in the U.S. require a pilot to pay a bond, or pay for their training ? No. They pay for your training, pay you whilst training and pay for your accommodation during training.

Stockholm syndrome.