Ryanair to recruit 1000 Pilots
More than 2/3 of RYR hirers are European and coming from countries where €4000 per month is a salary that let's them live like kings and where attitudes to home ownership are not like ours. These terms are bad for British nationals and the Irish along with a few other countries but the tax dodging young FOs from Italy, Portugal and Spain (they know who they are) will relish the salary and payment method for many many years to come. These are countries with completely failed airlines. They can supply the young FOs for RYR's needs forever.
Last edited by MonarchOrBust; 8th Oct 2016 at 08:17.
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And there lies the fact that our young and inexperienced pilots (I was most definitely one of them once) have failed to grasp. There is a plentiful supply of experienced Captains and FOs in numerous airlines around Europe that will come on to the market, desperate for a job. Ryanair will be their saviour and the T&Cs offered to them will not be the ones on the table now. You guessed it. They will be lower, significantly lower.
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In around about way I've just explained the old looming pilot shortage theory I will concede, yea it will probably turn out to be less dramatic in reality. What I'm saying is they can't keep reducing salaries and inc training costs infinitely, there is a bottom line....somewhere!
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But you guys really don't know your (our) economic history.
The current economic climate for becoming a pilot has a very short history.
What has changed dramatically in then past 15 years; and it is really only that short, is the financial entry point for pilots to airlines. At the end of the 90's the TR was often paid for by the airlines. You gambled with paying for the CPL and looked for a job later. Another option introduced in 90's was bonding. That didn't cost you anything, only time.
Then the huge expansion started at the beginning of 00's. The traditional CPL was being replaced by MPA schemes. Airlines were overwhelmed with cadet applications and introduced self-funded TR courses. CTC schemes grew up, P2Fly, CPL + TR + 6 months line training schemes popped up. The whole market place changed hugely. Entry costs went up and rewards went down. The growth of LoCo's changed everything, even for the big players. But the big players didn't dumb-down completely, not yet. There is a very transparent relationship for a wannabee to see between self-funded entry costs and what career and rewards one might hope for. IMHO the % of cadets flocking to join the self-funded schemes, AND who expect to spend >10years in that same company, is quite small. I'd expect many to grab whatever lifeboat is passing to 'get on the ladder' and then search for more glamorous or financially rewarding pastures ASAP.
I think cadets who want to gain an MPA CPL and huge debt, and then hope they can find a job later to repay the debt, are dwindling because the money source to lend the money is dwindling. I know of many who finished CPL flight school >3 years ago and are still waiting for interview, anywhere. It doesn't send signals of confidence to the next generation.
As has been said survival of the LoCo is via continued expansion. RYR and the other big ones are like fish, they have to keep moving to breath.
To crew that expansion they need to introduce schemes taking a cadet from zero to type rating to RHS within a given time frame and known transparent financial package. They order a/c many years ahead, they need to do the same with home-grown pilots. If they don't it would not be a surprise to find a/c sitting on parking waiting for crew. The idea that expansion could be crewed by the airlines that were driven to go bust is long gone. The expansion needs to be managed in total. That requires vision and commitment. The cadet joins the scheme knowing what is involved and what they will get out of it over a given period. It's an eyes open entry rather than groping in the dark and hoping for the best.
The current economic climate for becoming a pilot has a very short history.
What has changed dramatically in then past 15 years; and it is really only that short, is the financial entry point for pilots to airlines. At the end of the 90's the TR was often paid for by the airlines. You gambled with paying for the CPL and looked for a job later. Another option introduced in 90's was bonding. That didn't cost you anything, only time.
Then the huge expansion started at the beginning of 00's. The traditional CPL was being replaced by MPA schemes. Airlines were overwhelmed with cadet applications and introduced self-funded TR courses. CTC schemes grew up, P2Fly, CPL + TR + 6 months line training schemes popped up. The whole market place changed hugely. Entry costs went up and rewards went down. The growth of LoCo's changed everything, even for the big players. But the big players didn't dumb-down completely, not yet. There is a very transparent relationship for a wannabee to see between self-funded entry costs and what career and rewards one might hope for. IMHO the % of cadets flocking to join the self-funded schemes, AND who expect to spend >10years in that same company, is quite small. I'd expect many to grab whatever lifeboat is passing to 'get on the ladder' and then search for more glamorous or financially rewarding pastures ASAP.
I think cadets who want to gain an MPA CPL and huge debt, and then hope they can find a job later to repay the debt, are dwindling because the money source to lend the money is dwindling. I know of many who finished CPL flight school >3 years ago and are still waiting for interview, anywhere. It doesn't send signals of confidence to the next generation.
As has been said survival of the LoCo is via continued expansion. RYR and the other big ones are like fish, they have to keep moving to breath.
To crew that expansion they need to introduce schemes taking a cadet from zero to type rating to RHS within a given time frame and known transparent financial package. They order a/c many years ahead, they need to do the same with home-grown pilots. If they don't it would not be a surprise to find a/c sitting on parking waiting for crew. The idea that expansion could be crewed by the airlines that were driven to go bust is long gone. The expansion needs to be managed in total. That requires vision and commitment. The cadet joins the scheme knowing what is involved and what they will get out of it over a given period. It's an eyes open entry rather than groping in the dark and hoping for the best.
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The bottom will line will look something like this:
200k to train
Pay for all training everything Inc recurrent
Floating Base
Salary of around £800-1000pcm net
Variable roster
That's for Fo in today's money. Just wait until the next recession and the screw will tighten. So far ryr have made it through the good times with no improvement.
200k to train
Pay for all training everything Inc recurrent
Floating Base
Salary of around £800-1000pcm net
Variable roster
That's for Fo in today's money. Just wait until the next recession and the screw will tighten. So far ryr have made it through the good times with no improvement.
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I don't think you're far from the truth to be honest.
Floating bases already here.
Some pay for recurrent.
Variable rosters are more the norm rather than exception.
The financials aren't quite there yet. However I'm now seeing £120,000 mentioned as training costs on here. In my day it were around £90,000-£100,000. No double Brexit will be used as an excuse to increase prices. I suppose there would be a genuine cost base increase to FTOs.
The scary thing is that if £200,000 was the price tag you'd still have a queue round the block. You've got the social media aspect and you can't put a price on that. Most of the kids I see joining have their phones glued to their hands taking selfies. There's an EK pilot with a vast amount of followers selling the dream.
Floating bases already here.
Some pay for recurrent.
Variable rosters are more the norm rather than exception.
The financials aren't quite there yet. However I'm now seeing £120,000 mentioned as training costs on here. In my day it were around £90,000-£100,000. No double Brexit will be used as an excuse to increase prices. I suppose there would be a genuine cost base increase to FTOs.
The scary thing is that if £200,000 was the price tag you'd still have a queue round the block. You've got the social media aspect and you can't put a price on that. Most of the kids I see joining have their phones glued to their hands taking selfies. There's an EK pilot with a vast amount of followers selling the dream.
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And then there is HMRC delving into the past tax affairs of BBC presenters who claimed self-employment via 'service companies' and thus dodging huge tax bills. The newspaper article suggests that HMRC, if it finds guilt on the part of the presenters, will also find culpable guilt on behalf of the BBC. Sound familiar? Added to that the attack PM. May says she'll make on bogus zero hour contracts. It would seem the future of 'self-employment' of pilots might soon be a thing of the past, and that will change the playing field future wannabes.
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desperate to sign up because "I just want to fly".
Eventually the message all get through that the days of 'flying a jet-liner' are dwindling and in the next generation it will be over. Then what? Those of us packed up recently had the best of it.
Eventually the message all get through that the days of 'flying a jet-liner' are dwindling and in the next generation it will be over. Then what? Those of us packed up recently had the best of it.
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RAT 5, is sadly right. Although, when I choose to finally go for this industry I accepted that RYR/EZY was the probably the best I'd get, that's probably why some of you think I'm nuts!
However, paying for education, training and healthcare etc etc is something we are going to have to get used to in life, especially if your are in my generation, if you think otherwise then I'm not the deluded one.
However, paying for education, training and healthcare etc etc is something we are going to have to get used to in life, especially if your are in my generation, if you think otherwise then I'm not the deluded one.
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Because LoCo for life is just not sustainable. Health wise.
True. The LoCo's will need more pilots as many of the older more financially secure ones will go part-time. They will demand 50-80% rosters; hence more pilots. LoCo's have relied upon self-funded cadets; that may change as funding dries up. They also benefited from qualified pilots being on the market as they drove less flexible airlines to the wall. So they benefit from greatly reduced training costs from the old traditional model.
The major more traditional airlines are also expanding and looking to cut costs. They seem attractive career moves for those near burn-out in LoCo's. There is a belief that those guys are well trained and well experienced, so easy to recruit into the long-haul/short-haul operators. The majors now have a source of ready trained pilots at reduced training costs. It will depend how soon the change their philosophy of preferring home grown talent from zero in their own flight schools. Can they teach old dogs new tricks. Will it be a sound idea to have a LoCo captain as a 2nd officer in a seniority system? This will further put a load on LoCo's recruiting numbers.
It is very difficult to predict what the pilot market will be in 20 years; indeed what a life-long career will look like. Will sacrosanct seniority still rule in the traditional majors? 30 years ago pilot mobility was very limited. Look at it now. There are many various options to switch employers; sometimes with little or no backward step.
I think the LOCo's need to step into the homegrown training market and accept that many pilots will stay with them for max 10 years. The majors might need to change their recruitment strategies. Time will tell and it will be the bean counters who decide.
True. The LoCo's will need more pilots as many of the older more financially secure ones will go part-time. They will demand 50-80% rosters; hence more pilots. LoCo's have relied upon self-funded cadets; that may change as funding dries up. They also benefited from qualified pilots being on the market as they drove less flexible airlines to the wall. So they benefit from greatly reduced training costs from the old traditional model.
The major more traditional airlines are also expanding and looking to cut costs. They seem attractive career moves for those near burn-out in LoCo's. There is a belief that those guys are well trained and well experienced, so easy to recruit into the long-haul/short-haul operators. The majors now have a source of ready trained pilots at reduced training costs. It will depend how soon the change their philosophy of preferring home grown talent from zero in their own flight schools. Can they teach old dogs new tricks. Will it be a sound idea to have a LoCo captain as a 2nd officer in a seniority system? This will further put a load on LoCo's recruiting numbers.
It is very difficult to predict what the pilot market will be in 20 years; indeed what a life-long career will look like. Will sacrosanct seniority still rule in the traditional majors? 30 years ago pilot mobility was very limited. Look at it now. There are many various options to switch employers; sometimes with little or no backward step.
I think the LOCo's need to step into the homegrown training market and accept that many pilots will stay with them for max 10 years. The majors might need to change their recruitment strategies. Time will tell and it will be the bean counters who decide.
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You need a good union or good negotiating powers. I too fell foul of this abuse of part-time. I worked a 50% roster in days of duty, but because I did no SBY's I achieved >60% productivity for 50% pay. After I left the said abusing outfit a union arrived and 50% roster was just that. It was a shared roster but the total FTL for any period was maxed at 50% of the limits and they received 50% pay. I was the pathfinder and, as often is the case, got shafted. I have mates in BA, KLM, who work a union agreed 50%, 66% 80% roster for the ratio rewards.
If you allow yourself to be shafted by doing 100% work for 80% pay then.............
If you allow yourself to be shafted by doing 100% work for 80% pay then.............
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Plenty of guys working in ryr part time, 13 off 5 on and still flying 800+ hours. On self employed contracts so still earning the same amount of money for lots of days off. Just expect to be flogged on the 5 days on.
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Plenty of guys working in ryr part time, 13 off 5 on and still flying 800+ hours.
That would be possible, and perhaps desirable, for 'self-employees'. However, I was the victim of that attitude as an employee, non-union. 50% pay for 65% productivity. The advent of a union made it more honest. 50/50. Let's hope the contractor has a nice winter sun escape to enjoy, recover and spend the money.
That would be possible, and perhaps desirable, for 'self-employees'. However, I was the victim of that attitude as an employee, non-union. 50% pay for 65% productivity. The advent of a union made it more honest. 50/50. Let's hope the contractor has a nice winter sun escape to enjoy, recover and spend the money.
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Sadly all these ever decreasing T&C don't have a guiltier party than the pilot community itself...
We have seen and accepted all these ever decreasing T&C for many many years with no action whatsoever. This is even more true in airlines of the likes of RYR.
Don't blame recessions, don't blame the lack of European Commission support, don't even blame MOL. In the end it is just us the pilots having no balls at all the utter culprits of this situation. It really pisses me off...
And until that changes, the T&Cs all over Europe will keep going down...
We have seen and accepted all these ever decreasing T&C for many many years with no action whatsoever. This is even more true in airlines of the likes of RYR.
Don't blame recessions, don't blame the lack of European Commission support, don't even blame MOL. In the end it is just us the pilots having no balls at all the utter culprits of this situation. It really pisses me off...
And until that changes, the T&Cs all over Europe will keep going down...
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No monarchorbust but the older established pilots did and didn't do a thing. Now some of them get upset at the thought of a 25 year old captain who does the job better than they do.
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Did REPA achieve anything? Did IALPA, after the huge increase in subs from RYR pilots, achieve anything? Why not? If either of those organisations could not coordinate any action then an ERC has no chance?