Norwegian B787 - FLL based
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2 years flying EASA registered planes to Europe for a European airline on an FAA licence ?? Can we do this in the US ? Yet again another sign that our profession is gone down the swanny .
What a load of Bovine excrement.
FYI:
Norwegian Air Shuttle aims to go intercontinental and hire pilots in US | The National
http://www.latestpilotjobs.com/jobs/view/id/8264.html
http://www.latestpilotjobs.com/jobs/view/id/8262.html
Norwegian Air Shuttle aims to go intercontinental and hire pilots in US | The National
http://www.latestpilotjobs.com/jobs/view/id/8264.html
http://www.latestpilotjobs.com/jobs/view/id/8262.html
Last edited by bafanguy; 10th Oct 2016 at 21:11.
Just checking to see if I'm understanding this offer correctly as it involves US citizens.
If an applicant only has an FAA ticket, he will get a license validation allowing him to fly EU acft for two years during which time he must get a full EASA license (14 writtens plus other stuff ?) to go beyond that point:
"If you hold an FAA flight crew license, Norwegian will support conversion training to obtain an EASA license during a time of up to 2 years. During this period, you will operate under a waiver on European registered aircraft."
But he's obligated to a 3 year bond the amount of which I've not seen documented...can't be cheap:
"For pilots not current on B787 or B777 there will be a training cost bond, being paid back or decreasing by 1/3 each year over three years..."
So, unless a person wants to get nailed for that 3rd year of the bond by bolting after only two years, he'll be studying for/taking those 14 writtens while flying internationally and being jet lagged...to complete the 3rd year ?
I must be missing something here. Please correct my impression.
If an applicant only has an FAA ticket, he will get a license validation allowing him to fly EU acft for two years during which time he must get a full EASA license (14 writtens plus other stuff ?) to go beyond that point:
"If you hold an FAA flight crew license, Norwegian will support conversion training to obtain an EASA license during a time of up to 2 years. During this period, you will operate under a waiver on European registered aircraft."
But he's obligated to a 3 year bond the amount of which I've not seen documented...can't be cheap:
"For pilots not current on B787 or B777 there will be a training cost bond, being paid back or decreasing by 1/3 each year over three years..."
So, unless a person wants to get nailed for that 3rd year of the bond by bolting after only two years, he'll be studying for/taking those 14 writtens while flying internationally and being jet lagged...to complete the 3rd year ?
I must be missing something here. Please correct my impression.
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With the majors all hiring, I can't see anyone with a FAA licence and widebody experience (or Boeing experience for that matter) jumping at this. A non starter. Next.
Well, I wasn't asking who might accept this position...or refuse it. I was asking about the structure of the offer faced by those FAA license holders who DO take it.
And I can assure you "...anyone with... widebody experience (or Boeing experience for that matter) ..." is not automatically moved to the head of the hiring line at US major. Feel free to dispute that but I know otherwise.
The Norwegian offer may in fact be a non starter for US citizens when all is said and done but it's far too early to make such a pronouncement.
I'd guess it might not take long to see how it turns out.
And I can assure you "...anyone with... widebody experience (or Boeing experience for that matter) ..." is not automatically moved to the head of the hiring line at US major. Feel free to dispute that but I know otherwise.
The Norwegian offer may in fact be a non starter for US citizens when all is said and done but it's far too early to make such a pronouncement.
I'd guess it might not take long to see how it turns out.
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Nobody interested? How many US pilots are currently flying the 777 as captain for foreign carriers like Emirates, Korean etc.......there will be interest just not somebody from AA or Delta.
The option to start in left seat of 787 vs right seat of an MD80 has a certain appeal.....at least to an older group.
The option to start in left seat of 787 vs right seat of an MD80 has a certain appeal.....at least to an older group.
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Norwegian’s FLL based pilots who will commute cannot participate in any US airline jumpseat program. Approvals require the employer to be an airline, not a third-party agency such as Orient Ship Management. Ongoing incompetence in managing crew resources may preclude the purchase of FLL commuting tickets on anything other than very short notice with associated high cost. Additionally, European pilot unions have not yet considered their response to the proposal allowing FAA licensed pilots to operate European registered and regulated aircraft for the stated period.
Eventually, the situation may improve. By recruiting US based pilots Kjos has invited a very large elephant into the room in the form of the 1926 Railway Labor Act, RLA. The invitation is surprising given the recent victory by US based NAI flight attendants in obtaining union recognition, representation and collective agreement rights directly with their “real employer”, Norwegian:
http://cabinassociation.org/wp-conte...NMB-No.-35.pdf
http://cabinassociation.org/wp-conte...ss-Release.pdf
During the Norwegian Cabin Crew Association application to the National Mediation Board for union recognition, Norwegian and their collaborator in employment circumvention fought tooth and nail against the reality that Norwegian acts as the real employer:
“Norwegian contends that OSM is the sole employer of the cabin crew and that neither NAR nor NAS exercises control over OSM. In addition, Norwegian contends that they lack the continuing authority to supervise and direct the manner in which the Cabin Crew members render their services”.
However, the Agreement for Provision of Services of Aircraft Crew between OSM and Norwegian states:
“OSM, in exchange for compensation, provides employees to perform work as part of the customers business under the customers control and management”
The Railway Labor Act states:
“The jurisdiction of the RLA extends to every common carrier by air engaged in interstate or foreign commerce and, every air pilot or other person who performs any work as an employee or subordinate official of such carrier or carriers, subject to its or their continuing authority to supervise and direct the manner of rendition of his services”
Consequently, both Norwegian and OSM failed, abysmally, in their attempt to obstruct cabin crew being allowed to ballot for union representation as “employees” of Norwegian. The full report may be read at link:
https://storage.googleapis.com/dakot...NMB-No.-21.pdf
So, if you live in the FLL area and are prepared to forego labor rights and labor principles with your “real employer” and pay 30K for the privilege, until such time as your group follows the lead of the US based cabin crew to organize union representation, the smiling rock ape regime may be for you.
Eventually, the situation may improve. By recruiting US based pilots Kjos has invited a very large elephant into the room in the form of the 1926 Railway Labor Act, RLA. The invitation is surprising given the recent victory by US based NAI flight attendants in obtaining union recognition, representation and collective agreement rights directly with their “real employer”, Norwegian:
http://cabinassociation.org/wp-conte...NMB-No.-35.pdf
http://cabinassociation.org/wp-conte...ss-Release.pdf
During the Norwegian Cabin Crew Association application to the National Mediation Board for union recognition, Norwegian and their collaborator in employment circumvention fought tooth and nail against the reality that Norwegian acts as the real employer:
“Norwegian contends that OSM is the sole employer of the cabin crew and that neither NAR nor NAS exercises control over OSM. In addition, Norwegian contends that they lack the continuing authority to supervise and direct the manner in which the Cabin Crew members render their services”.
However, the Agreement for Provision of Services of Aircraft Crew between OSM and Norwegian states:
“OSM, in exchange for compensation, provides employees to perform work as part of the customers business under the customers control and management”
The Railway Labor Act states:
“The jurisdiction of the RLA extends to every common carrier by air engaged in interstate or foreign commerce and, every air pilot or other person who performs any work as an employee or subordinate official of such carrier or carriers, subject to its or their continuing authority to supervise and direct the manner of rendition of his services”
Consequently, both Norwegian and OSM failed, abysmally, in their attempt to obstruct cabin crew being allowed to ballot for union representation as “employees” of Norwegian. The full report may be read at link:
https://storage.googleapis.com/dakot...NMB-No.-21.pdf
So, if you live in the FLL area and are prepared to forego labor rights and labor principles with your “real employer” and pay 30K for the privilege, until such time as your group follows the lead of the US based cabin crew to organize union representation, the smiling rock ape regime may be for you.
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True if Norwegian shows the money. Who wants to pay an up front cash training bond, get a crappy pay and work ridiculous schedules? Good luck!
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As a non type rated FO....It doesn't seem to be appealing.
However for a type rated 777-787 Direct entry Captain it will attract quite a few I would think as they don't have to sign a bond and sure many just want to return to states.
However for a type rated 777-787 Direct entry Captain it will attract quite a few I would think as they don't have to sign a bond and sure many just want to return to states.
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Emirates Captain here...
I can't wait to sit right seat in a 320/737/mad dog... ...its all about the work rules for me, since we have ZERO work rules at my current employer.
Norwegian sounds nice on paper, but you'll be branded a scab.
To each their own I guess.
I can't wait to sit right seat in a 320/737/mad dog... ...its all about the work rules for me, since we have ZERO work rules at my current employer.
Norwegian sounds nice on paper, but you'll be branded a scab.
To each their own I guess.
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You will not be branded a "scab" in the U.S. The term "scab" in the States applies to to workers who cross union picket lines to work jobs that a union is striking against. It does not apply to people who are working for companies that are not experiencing union action (unless the company is providing workers to cover for another company's struck work such as when FalconAir was brought in to provide lift for Spirit when the Spirit pilots were on strike). It also does not apply to pilots who are working for less money that their counterparts. If the term "scab" applied to pilots who worked for less money and benefits than their counterparts, then ALPA and APA are guilty of creating "scabs" when they agreed to the B-scale wages of the 1980s. If someone refers to Norwegian pilots as "scabs" in the U.S. they are ignorant fools and not worth the time to worry about. Besides, beyond denying use of the jumpseat, which Norwegian pilots would not have access to, there is nothing an ALPA, APA, SWAPA or Teamsters pilot could do, so why would you care if one of them called you a "scab" out of ignorance?
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Well, i believe the mentioned unions, not quite sure about SWAPA and Teamsters, are very strongly involved in the Deny NAI movement. From their point of view they could of course come to the conclusion that anybody working for them is a scab. Not that i like that term at all (and that as a union rep). But from a certain point of view i can understand that.
And it could in theory lead to difficulties in joining carriers where the pilots are represented by one of those unions.
And it could in theory lead to difficulties in joining carriers where the pilots are represented by one of those unions.
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just curious, I read that for captain they require X amount of hours as widebody or narrow body in long haul ops? what they consider long haul in a narrow body? Flight of more than 6 hs in a 757/737/A320??
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Calling them scabs, really? Are Emirates pilots Scabs? The ME3 are massively undermining all legacy carriers worldwide, that still doesn't mean that somebody who works there is responsible for it. Dumping hard politics onto the backs of employees - great stuff (sarcasm!). Next thing we know Air Berlin guys are accused of scabing because they will assist in the Eurowings project. I call BS on it!
Short intro:
The US job market for pilots has really picked up strongly, lots of hiring going on at all stages of the industry from 91/135 to 121. Many reach their long aspired career goal of flying for one of the majors. Some guys hold MD-8X Captain at one of the big three after only 1 or 2 years.
Norwegian FLL:
Norwegian is using agency contracts to staff their planes. A (shame on those europeans) standard practice in europe that is unusual in the US. Understandably they'll get some flak for this, especially as there are so many "better" jobs to be had currently here in the states.
To call guys taking those "lesser value" jobs Scabs is absurd. A Scab is someone, as has been mentioned above, who crosses a picket line during a strike to take a position that wouldn't even be available if it weren't for the strike in the first place or someone who willfully flies routes of his striking colleagues.
Are pilots at "bottom feeder" US cargo or regional airlines Scabs? Technically, they are doing the same job a pilot at one of the majors is doing for less renumeration, thereby undercutting the industry, sort of. How come the unions who are so adamant about Norwegian have accepted 15000 USD starting salarys at part 121 regionals? How come the US airlines bitching now employ foreign based cabin that are paid less money than beeing US based?
Who here can, in times of ever increasing "human resources" and at the same time diminishing numbers of jobs overall (look at Europe!), afford the noble attitude of refusing to take up work as the terms are beneath what AA, UA, DL etc... offer. Off course there is always a bottom line, for me that would be straight out paying to fly (Lion Air Indonesia etc..). Take the EU for example. The ME3 are dumping 380s on us like there is no (uhh I mean "Hello") tomorrow. A typical european is usually limited to a handful airlines because of language barriers, whereas a pilot in the US has access to the busiest commercial aviation market in the world. Many in the eu join low cost airlines, and sometimes that first job on the shiny jet feels like a dead end after so many years. Other are laid off, their bases are closed or they just can't stand Turkey (the country!) or the ME3 anymore and come back to the first job they can find.
Yes, the terms for the Norwegian contract aren't on par to what most guys in the US are used too, but for the average non legacy europilot 10k/month is a new, sad reality.
I would like to end with a quote from the other Norwegian thread. It is one thing to comfortably look down from the "good jobs" to those "below". Instead of accusing and confronting one another, those that are in the comfort zone could show a little empathy. Here is the quote, and unfortunately the part about "nobody looking out for you" is true.
Short intro:
The US job market for pilots has really picked up strongly, lots of hiring going on at all stages of the industry from 91/135 to 121. Many reach their long aspired career goal of flying for one of the majors. Some guys hold MD-8X Captain at one of the big three after only 1 or 2 years.
Norwegian FLL:
Norwegian is using agency contracts to staff their planes. A (shame on those europeans) standard practice in europe that is unusual in the US. Understandably they'll get some flak for this, especially as there are so many "better" jobs to be had currently here in the states.
To call guys taking those "lesser value" jobs Scabs is absurd. A Scab is someone, as has been mentioned above, who crosses a picket line during a strike to take a position that wouldn't even be available if it weren't for the strike in the first place or someone who willfully flies routes of his striking colleagues.
Are pilots at "bottom feeder" US cargo or regional airlines Scabs? Technically, they are doing the same job a pilot at one of the majors is doing for less renumeration, thereby undercutting the industry, sort of. How come the unions who are so adamant about Norwegian have accepted 15000 USD starting salarys at part 121 regionals? How come the US airlines bitching now employ foreign based cabin that are paid less money than beeing US based?
Who here can, in times of ever increasing "human resources" and at the same time diminishing numbers of jobs overall (look at Europe!), afford the noble attitude of refusing to take up work as the terms are beneath what AA, UA, DL etc... offer. Off course there is always a bottom line, for me that would be straight out paying to fly (Lion Air Indonesia etc..). Take the EU for example. The ME3 are dumping 380s on us like there is no (uhh I mean "Hello") tomorrow. A typical european is usually limited to a handful airlines because of language barriers, whereas a pilot in the US has access to the busiest commercial aviation market in the world. Many in the eu join low cost airlines, and sometimes that first job on the shiny jet feels like a dead end after so many years. Other are laid off, their bases are closed or they just can't stand Turkey (the country!) or the ME3 anymore and come back to the first job they can find.
Yes, the terms for the Norwegian contract aren't on par to what most guys in the US are used too, but for the average non legacy europilot 10k/month is a new, sad reality.
I would like to end with a quote from the other Norwegian thread. It is one thing to comfortably look down from the "good jobs" to those "below". Instead of accusing and confronting one another, those that are in the comfort zone could show a little empathy. Here is the quote, and unfortunately the part about "nobody looking out for you" is true.
Here is a piece of advice for you from nearly 30 years of flying, and well over two decades of doing it professionally on three different continents:
The industry is a mess and there is nobody who is going to look out for you, not your union, not your company, not your colleagues. And every new airline that comes along is ALWAYS accused of "lowering the bar", or "dragging down the profession". Anyone that innovates, regardless of industry, is considered dangerous and faces opposition (look at the opposition to Uber or the issues Elon Musk is facing getting his Tesla cars to the market in a lot of countries). As time passes, the innovator or new entrant becomes the establishment and soon another new entrant is branded as "evil".
Let's look at some of the airlines in North America as an example. In the early 1980s a new ultra-low cost airline called PeoplExpress was founded. Pilots were poorly paid, lacked union protection, and were forced to do jobs like taking tickets, helping to load bags, and clean the cabin. They were considered dangerous and their pilots were often accused by their peers as lower the bar of the profession. Fast forward 30 years and where are all those guys who were working for PeoplExpress? They are all senior captains at United (Continental bought PeoplExpress and now Continental has merged with United). So the guys who were at one point lowering the bar are now the senior ALPA members at one of the largest legacy airlines in the world.
Southwest was also considered dangerous at one point, so much so that the establishment went to court to fight them.
Virgin America was considered the worst airline in North America by the established airlines and the unions. The pilots were treated poorly and looked down upon for..."lowering the bar" (see a common theme here?). Now VX is a proud ALPA member and being merged with another legacy airline.
Southwest airlines required their prospective pilots to get a 737 type rating for nearly 40 years, only recently dropping the requirement. While SWA was never officially tied to the type rating mills, they certainly had a close relationship with one or two, and thousands of pilot shelled out thousands of dollars to get their 737 ratings hoping for a shot with SWA.
So my point is that while the idea of paying for a type rating, or providing a bank guarantee, or paying for training, or paying for line experience, may not be palatable for most of us, the reality is that this is overwhelmingly what the industry is. For every guy that gets hired by a big legacy airline, has everything paid for, and has a nice trouble free 30 year career before riding off into the sunset on his nice pension, there are 20 or 30 other guys who have to bounce around between multiple airlines, working multiple contracts and various parts of the world, or who end up flying for second rate carriers. If you are certain that you are going to land your dream job at Lufthansa, Delta or Qantas, then go ahead and roll the dice and be thankful if you land it. But refusing another job because they are "lowering the bar" will do nothing to change the industry. The only thing that will change the industry is the market.
Here is a piece of advice I got from an acquaintance of mine. At 25 years old he was hired by PeoplExpress and is now a senior 777 captain at United based in EWR. When he was hired at PeoplExpress, friends and acquaintances of his that got hired at PanAm, TWA and Eastern all accused him of lowering the bar. He has ended up having a nice and relatively steady career, while most of them have ended up bouncing around with several different airlines. His advice to me was to always take the best available offer that you have, even if it may not be the best job out there. Because you have no way of knowing what will happen over the next 10, 20 or 30 years. What may be a crap job today can end up being the best job in 20 years, and the best job today may not exist in 20 years.
The industry is a mess and there is nobody who is going to look out for you, not your union, not your company, not your colleagues. And every new airline that comes along is ALWAYS accused of "lowering the bar", or "dragging down the profession". Anyone that innovates, regardless of industry, is considered dangerous and faces opposition (look at the opposition to Uber or the issues Elon Musk is facing getting his Tesla cars to the market in a lot of countries). As time passes, the innovator or new entrant becomes the establishment and soon another new entrant is branded as "evil".
Let's look at some of the airlines in North America as an example. In the early 1980s a new ultra-low cost airline called PeoplExpress was founded. Pilots were poorly paid, lacked union protection, and were forced to do jobs like taking tickets, helping to load bags, and clean the cabin. They were considered dangerous and their pilots were often accused by their peers as lower the bar of the profession. Fast forward 30 years and where are all those guys who were working for PeoplExpress? They are all senior captains at United (Continental bought PeoplExpress and now Continental has merged with United). So the guys who were at one point lowering the bar are now the senior ALPA members at one of the largest legacy airlines in the world.
Southwest was also considered dangerous at one point, so much so that the establishment went to court to fight them.
Virgin America was considered the worst airline in North America by the established airlines and the unions. The pilots were treated poorly and looked down upon for..."lowering the bar" (see a common theme here?). Now VX is a proud ALPA member and being merged with another legacy airline.
Southwest airlines required their prospective pilots to get a 737 type rating for nearly 40 years, only recently dropping the requirement. While SWA was never officially tied to the type rating mills, they certainly had a close relationship with one or two, and thousands of pilot shelled out thousands of dollars to get their 737 ratings hoping for a shot with SWA.
So my point is that while the idea of paying for a type rating, or providing a bank guarantee, or paying for training, or paying for line experience, may not be palatable for most of us, the reality is that this is overwhelmingly what the industry is. For every guy that gets hired by a big legacy airline, has everything paid for, and has a nice trouble free 30 year career before riding off into the sunset on his nice pension, there are 20 or 30 other guys who have to bounce around between multiple airlines, working multiple contracts and various parts of the world, or who end up flying for second rate carriers. If you are certain that you are going to land your dream job at Lufthansa, Delta or Qantas, then go ahead and roll the dice and be thankful if you land it. But refusing another job because they are "lowering the bar" will do nothing to change the industry. The only thing that will change the industry is the market.
Here is a piece of advice I got from an acquaintance of mine. At 25 years old he was hired by PeoplExpress and is now a senior 777 captain at United based in EWR. When he was hired at PeoplExpress, friends and acquaintances of his that got hired at PanAm, TWA and Eastern all accused him of lowering the bar. He has ended up having a nice and relatively steady career, while most of them have ended up bouncing around with several different airlines. His advice to me was to always take the best available offer that you have, even if it may not be the best job out there. Because you have no way of knowing what will happen over the next 10, 20 or 30 years. What may be a crap job today can end up being the best job in 20 years, and the best job today may not exist in 20 years.