Would you suggest being an airline pilot as a carreer?
Originally Posted by Underfire
Staying at one place these days is more of a negative attribute than anything else. That usually only benefits the employer, not the employee. In programming, more that 3 years at one location means you are not successful at interviewing.
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Like many careers, if you take the long view it is still a good career if flying is really your vocation. Many professions have taken a hit in terms of lifestyle and remuneration and many have barriers to entry higher than aviation. In financial terms, you will eventually be well paid by most standards. Loans for licences will be paid down in much the same way and rate as a student loan.
What would put me off with the benefit of 25 years hindsight, is the shift work. I'd avoid any job where I had to work nights or weekends.
What would put me off with the benefit of 25 years hindsight, is the shift work. I'd avoid any job where I had to work nights or weekends.
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I'd avoid any job where I had to work nights or weekends.
I had a discussion/disagreement with my CP in a LoCo. He did not agree with my presumption that I worked shift work. Compensation? End of discussion!
I had a discussion/disagreement with my CP in a LoCo. He did not agree with my presumption that I worked shift work. Compensation? End of discussion!
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I think if you give a balanced view of the highs and lows they can hopefully make their mind up - use the video clips from catch me if you can when he's an airline pilot....
Then turn around to the ones made on your iPhone of your colleague asleep in his chair at 36,000 with the wish you were here for my birthday dad card in the background, then pan to semi naked women in bikinis and the captain doing bodyshots off them at the pool bar and then that fades out to dreamy waves image and shows a crew in a hotel lobby at 35c sweating their asses off after a 15 hours day and they've been there for 2 hours because someone hasn't booked the right rooms again or the delayed crews hot bedding rooms haven't been done yet....
Finally as closing scene find a blockbuster Hollywood movie that shows the pilot being greeted by the family with arms thrown around them and amazing upbeat music, fade this out to the pilot doing his laundry, dealing with the biggest pile of post ever and wondering why his phone doesn't ring, then pan to his mates going wild down the pub and saying "shame Jim couldn't he here again, hey has anyone phoned him?, na he never comes out anymore either away or always too tired,oh and it's awkward because bob is screwing his wife because she's so lonely and he's so tired and grumpy and no fun anymore "......
Pan to Bob and Mrs Captains former wife getting married and captain with half a bottle of booze in a strip club looking at the tired card from earlier scene saying "wish you were here dad"
"no" by the way lol
ps - not my life but that of so many colleagues in the industry. I'd definately do a wall paid job if I had my time again and spend evening and weekends with family and see the kids every Christmas and birthday. Life's too short ! Self
employed plumbers and electricians, IT contractor take home more than I do and work their own hours with massive tax benefits.
Then turn around to the ones made on your iPhone of your colleague asleep in his chair at 36,000 with the wish you were here for my birthday dad card in the background, then pan to semi naked women in bikinis and the captain doing bodyshots off them at the pool bar and then that fades out to dreamy waves image and shows a crew in a hotel lobby at 35c sweating their asses off after a 15 hours day and they've been there for 2 hours because someone hasn't booked the right rooms again or the delayed crews hot bedding rooms haven't been done yet....
Finally as closing scene find a blockbuster Hollywood movie that shows the pilot being greeted by the family with arms thrown around them and amazing upbeat music, fade this out to the pilot doing his laundry, dealing with the biggest pile of post ever and wondering why his phone doesn't ring, then pan to his mates going wild down the pub and saying "shame Jim couldn't he here again, hey has anyone phoned him?, na he never comes out anymore either away or always too tired,oh and it's awkward because bob is screwing his wife because she's so lonely and he's so tired and grumpy and no fun anymore "......
Pan to Bob and Mrs Captains former wife getting married and captain with half a bottle of booze in a strip club looking at the tired card from earlier scene saying "wish you were here dad"
"no" by the way lol
ps - not my life but that of so many colleagues in the industry. I'd definately do a wall paid job if I had my time again and spend evening and weekends with family and see the kids every Christmas and birthday. Life's too short ! Self
employed plumbers and electricians, IT contractor take home more than I do and work their own hours with massive tax benefits.
Last edited by xollob; 16th Sep 2016 at 21:29.
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I think it's a great job, but you also need to be lucky and hard working. Can't say I'd be too happy after a decade in a LoCo followed by China followed by working for another LoCo to get back home. But I'm lucky enough to work for a company that looks after me well and bases me where I want.
My days off are mine, I can turn up to work, fly and go home. No additional BS that being self employed brings. I watch self-employed relatives not getting a moment's peace for months on end, not a single day off.
Or my doctor friends spending 6-7 years at uni to get a lot less money than I do with worse shift patterns.
Think I'll stick to being a pilot!
My days off are mine, I can turn up to work, fly and go home. No additional BS that being self employed brings. I watch self-employed relatives not getting a moment's peace for months on end, not a single day off.
Or my doctor friends spending 6-7 years at uni to get a lot less money than I do with worse shift patterns.
Think I'll stick to being a pilot!
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I think it's a great job, but you also need to be lucky and hard working
Reflecting on my career I had to de more of the latter than the former. However, I was lucky in that my hard work paid off and a life of nomadic adventure ensued.
For the cadet, who is thinking of embarking on an expensive educational leap of faith, I would suggest the risk of being lucky is huge. Hard work might not cut it. (I know of people who are still out of work, can't get an interview 4 years out of flight school. Indeed, that delay is acting against them). The debt will still be hanging there and you wonder why did you do it.
If you can by-pass the luck with a sponsored scheme I'd probably give it a go and employ hard work to advance myself. If you encounter base luck it will be a very expensive mistake.
Reflecting on my career I had to de more of the latter than the former. However, I was lucky in that my hard work paid off and a life of nomadic adventure ensued.
For the cadet, who is thinking of embarking on an expensive educational leap of faith, I would suggest the risk of being lucky is huge. Hard work might not cut it. (I know of people who are still out of work, can't get an interview 4 years out of flight school. Indeed, that delay is acting against them). The debt will still be hanging there and you wonder why did you do it.
If you can by-pass the luck with a sponsored scheme I'd probably give it a go and employ hard work to advance myself. If you encounter base luck it will be a very expensive mistake.
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RAT 5 - Yep, luck has a big part to play. Ask anyone who worked for XL, Viking, Primera (out of Ireland) and Monarch. One was bad enough but all 4! Now that I call luck.
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No.
Answer: No. Period.
And to the thread opener:
good choice, glad you're taking the chance and tell those kids something about the real world, because our job is one of those which is still rather over-glorified, especially among young people.
As a side note: I'm working for a big major airline in Europe which is widely considered as a very good employer and I'm not frustrated nor grumpy about my work life... but even here, it's just not worth it to jump in and persue a career as a pilot anymore. As entry hurdles for pilots become lower everywhere it's getting more tempting for those kids whose options are more limited anyway and I'd say though: just don't, stay away from aviation! The reasons have been elobarated enough on this forum, I guess.
Fly safe and fly happy - or don't fly
And to the thread opener:
good choice, glad you're taking the chance and tell those kids something about the real world, because our job is one of those which is still rather over-glorified, especially among young people.As a side note: I'm working for a big major airline in Europe which is widely considered as a very good employer and I'm not frustrated nor grumpy about my work life... but even here, it's just not worth it to jump in and persue a career as a pilot anymore. As entry hurdles for pilots become lower everywhere it's getting more tempting for those kids whose options are more limited anyway and I'd say though: just don't, stay away from aviation! The reasons have been elobarated enough on this forum, I guess.
Fly safe and fly happy - or don't fly
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As a career NO.
Go to University, get a good degree, get a career outside of piloting , and then fly for pleasure.
That is the way I have steered my son who starts at Uni tomorrow.
Go to University, get a good degree, get a career outside of piloting , and then fly for pleasure.
That is the way I have steered my son who starts at Uni tomorrow.
a big No
Would a pilot earning today's salaries be able to afford the £100 000+ to finance the kids through training and support them until they find a job with a budget airline?
Some people are being taken for a ride by this industry, and it ain't the pax.
Would a pilot earning today's salaries be able to afford the £100 000+ to finance the kids through training and support them until they find a job with a budget airline?
Some people are being taken for a ride by this industry, and it ain't the pax.
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This is a great thread. Thanks for all the info. I've been contemplating the idea of becoming a cadet for a long time and looking at these threads always helps as an eye opener. So thanks again.
Then again im in my mid 20s, have a uni degree, worked in different sectors including finance and on a plane as cc. Its obvious that terms aren't as good as they are though i notice a pattern sometimes on here , that most of those that still enjoy the profession are those that are able to compare the career to previous careers on ground.
That being said when I was in Uni, my mentors also told me to choose another career from my studies. When i graduated and worked in other industries i'd say most of the elders i worked with always said to do something else although the money was good but not as good as it used to be. I mean even the old cc at my old airline would miss the good old days when they could smoke a cig in the galley and fly for just 50hrs a month and earn the same amount as today. I think its rare for anyone in any field to say things have improved from the old days, be it finance, airlines, restaurants etc.. I have yet to find a profession where people praise the t&c's unless u own ur own business and ur the boss of course
So again thank you for all the eye openers, i think its great for ppl not to go in to the profession blinded by a movie or two. Same as you wouldn't go into wall street just because you watched "the wolf of wall street" i guess haha.
Then again im in my mid 20s, have a uni degree, worked in different sectors including finance and on a plane as cc. Its obvious that terms aren't as good as they are though i notice a pattern sometimes on here , that most of those that still enjoy the profession are those that are able to compare the career to previous careers on ground.
That being said when I was in Uni, my mentors also told me to choose another career from my studies. When i graduated and worked in other industries i'd say most of the elders i worked with always said to do something else although the money was good but not as good as it used to be. I mean even the old cc at my old airline would miss the good old days when they could smoke a cig in the galley and fly for just 50hrs a month and earn the same amount as today. I think its rare for anyone in any field to say things have improved from the old days, be it finance, airlines, restaurants etc.. I have yet to find a profession where people praise the t&c's unless u own ur own business and ur the boss of course
So again thank you for all the eye openers, i think its great for ppl not to go in to the profession blinded by a movie or two. Same as you wouldn't go into wall street just because you watched "the wolf of wall street" i guess haha.
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Overall, I would not recommend airline flying as a career. I'm now in my 24th year.
During my time flying two employers have ceased operations, I left another (that later went bust) that was run by a one-eyed criminal and my current employer, even though part of a legacy airline has slowly been winding the screw on our T's & C's. Shortly I will have to leave as I will not be able to continue my employment due to the terms that will be offered. This will suit me for a whole variety of reasons, one of which is that flying is not as much fun as it should be.
When I started, I didn't work too hard. Typically a seven-eight hour day, sometime less. But the view was good and I enjoyed the flying. But some parts of our current modern world were creeping in. The writing in small boxes that demonstrated that X, Y and Z had been done. The fear of the regulator and the constant fuel vs payload battle. But it was good flying.
Eventually I joined a largish regional airline and although many bits were amateurish, you were allowed to contribute and bring something of your own to the job, even if that was your enthusiasm. Over the course of time, I got to fly all over Europe in nice, brand new shiny jets. The operation is well run, legal and probably like the rest of you, I'm not even slightly worried about a ramp check. Anyone who checks us will be offered drinks and food. I also have the pleasure of flying with young F/O's (average age late 20's) and even younger C/A's. They are well motivated and enthusiastic and great people to spend time with.
But each of my colleagues started with a debt of about €150,000. They have been flying flat out (in our terms) and regularly up to six days a week. But they had no guarantee of a job when they decided to start flying. But remember, I fly with the lucky ones. Many of their friends have the debt and no job. Some end up as flap operators in Asia, others driving cabs in the wee small hours.
And if you do have a job, the current climate of competitive pressure means airlines will be making savings everywhere they can. And this reduces the quality of our lives. Like getting a cheaper cab company where the cabs are so dirty you wipe your feet on the way out. Security is also starting to grate. You can only accept so much theatre from the small minded individuals who dish out their daily dose of pointless and totally worthless antics. Then we have put up with the slots allocated by the muppets somewhere in Euroland. At least you know when you are flying two hours behind scheduie that the sky will be empty.
A lucky person entering flying now might get a job in a LoCo after 18 months after learning to fly. After five years of flying they will be close to a command and a few years after that be close to being burnt out. So they move to the sand pit and find it is even worse.
And we haven't even disussed the corrosive effect of flying on your family and personal life. You might be lucky and escape. But it's unlikely. You end up moving away from friends and family and our job (lates, earlies, week-ends, public holidays) makes it difficult to keep relatioships going.
So unless flying dramatically changes direction tomorrow, don't bother. Become a plumber or a train driver. It's not worth it.
PM
ps. When I retire I'm looking forward to NOT flying. I'm not queing, I'll not be touched up by a moron who couldn't get a proper job and I'll not pay for the privilege of parking in an airport car park. I'll happily stay at home and spend the money I'll save on more toys.
During my time flying two employers have ceased operations, I left another (that later went bust) that was run by a one-eyed criminal and my current employer, even though part of a legacy airline has slowly been winding the screw on our T's & C's. Shortly I will have to leave as I will not be able to continue my employment due to the terms that will be offered. This will suit me for a whole variety of reasons, one of which is that flying is not as much fun as it should be.
When I started, I didn't work too hard. Typically a seven-eight hour day, sometime less. But the view was good and I enjoyed the flying. But some parts of our current modern world were creeping in. The writing in small boxes that demonstrated that X, Y and Z had been done. The fear of the regulator and the constant fuel vs payload battle. But it was good flying.
Eventually I joined a largish regional airline and although many bits were amateurish, you were allowed to contribute and bring something of your own to the job, even if that was your enthusiasm. Over the course of time, I got to fly all over Europe in nice, brand new shiny jets. The operation is well run, legal and probably like the rest of you, I'm not even slightly worried about a ramp check. Anyone who checks us will be offered drinks and food. I also have the pleasure of flying with young F/O's (average age late 20's) and even younger C/A's. They are well motivated and enthusiastic and great people to spend time with.
But each of my colleagues started with a debt of about €150,000. They have been flying flat out (in our terms) and regularly up to six days a week. But they had no guarantee of a job when they decided to start flying. But remember, I fly with the lucky ones. Many of their friends have the debt and no job. Some end up as flap operators in Asia, others driving cabs in the wee small hours.
And if you do have a job, the current climate of competitive pressure means airlines will be making savings everywhere they can. And this reduces the quality of our lives. Like getting a cheaper cab company where the cabs are so dirty you wipe your feet on the way out. Security is also starting to grate. You can only accept so much theatre from the small minded individuals who dish out their daily dose of pointless and totally worthless antics. Then we have put up with the slots allocated by the muppets somewhere in Euroland. At least you know when you are flying two hours behind scheduie that the sky will be empty.
A lucky person entering flying now might get a job in a LoCo after 18 months after learning to fly. After five years of flying they will be close to a command and a few years after that be close to being burnt out. So they move to the sand pit and find it is even worse.
And we haven't even disussed the corrosive effect of flying on your family and personal life. You might be lucky and escape. But it's unlikely. You end up moving away from friends and family and our job (lates, earlies, week-ends, public holidays) makes it difficult to keep relatioships going.
So unless flying dramatically changes direction tomorrow, don't bother. Become a plumber or a train driver. It's not worth it.
PM
ps. When I retire I'm looking forward to NOT flying. I'm not queing, I'll not be touched up by a moron who couldn't get a proper job and I'll not pay for the privilege of parking in an airport car park. I'll happily stay at home and spend the money I'll save on more toys.
PM
I suspect you might get some adverse comment to that from the "try doing another job"/ "living the dream" brigade but it's a good a summing up of how things have declined over the last 20 years plus, even at the bigger operators.
The big problem for anyone starting out now is that the slippery slope is only going to get steeper.
I suspect you might get some adverse comment to that from the "try doing another job"/ "living the dream" brigade but it's a good a summing up of how things have declined over the last 20 years plus, even at the bigger operators.
The big problem for anyone starting out now is that the slippery slope is only going to get steeper.
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One of the biggest changes that has changed the outlook is:
years ago you could enter the profession with not too much cost for CPL, gain a type rating for no or little cost, earn a relatively good starting salary for an apprentice, be treated like a professional with reasonable respect, and be able to plot a career if you were competent.
now you need a 2nd mortgage to enter the profession, gain a type rating if you can afford to pay for it, start on an OK-ish salary for an apprentice but with huge debt, be treated like a school kid and trained monkey, have little idea where you all be living in 5 years, and have little chance of surviving till 65 at 100% of todays short-haul roster.
years ago you could enter the profession with not too much cost for CPL, gain a type rating for no or little cost, earn a relatively good starting salary for an apprentice, be treated like a professional with reasonable respect, and be able to plot a career if you were competent.
now you need a 2nd mortgage to enter the profession, gain a type rating if you can afford to pay for it, start on an OK-ish salary for an apprentice but with huge debt, be treated like a school kid and trained monkey, have little idea where you all be living in 5 years, and have little chance of surviving till 65 at 100% of todays short-haul roster.
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30 years of flying now having had the privilege of flying most things fast, slow, fixed and rotary.
My view of the industry after all these years is tainted by the experiences of years gone past and the old duffers propensity to grumble that it 'ain't like it used to be'. The industry has changed, how could it not. However when I started flying the industry had changed then as well and I enjoyed it. It will continue to change into the future I'm sure.
My son's view of the industry, as he looks in from the outside, is somewhat different to mine and whilst, like most teenagers, he's reticent to listen and heed advise from the 'past it' brigade I have to admire his drive and enthusiasm to look at the positives within the industry as they exist today without the fogged gaze of looking back.
All circumstances are different. Everyones perspective is different. What some may find acceptable and exciting others may not. I personally don't think the job of an airline pilot is a viable career for someone starting out from scratch. This is however based upon my experiences of the changes wrought over the last 30 years. My son views it differently and is actively pursuing the requisites required to enter FPP programs. Despite my misgivings I can see the dedication (a word not often used in the same sentence as 'teenager'
) he has therefore I will support him all the way and may he have as fun and fulfilling career as I have enjoyed.
Cheers
Wirbs
My view of the industry after all these years is tainted by the experiences of years gone past and the old duffers propensity to grumble that it 'ain't like it used to be'. The industry has changed, how could it not. However when I started flying the industry had changed then as well and I enjoyed it. It will continue to change into the future I'm sure.
My son's view of the industry, as he looks in from the outside, is somewhat different to mine and whilst, like most teenagers, he's reticent to listen and heed advise from the 'past it' brigade I have to admire his drive and enthusiasm to look at the positives within the industry as they exist today without the fogged gaze of looking back.
All circumstances are different. Everyones perspective is different. What some may find acceptable and exciting others may not. I personally don't think the job of an airline pilot is a viable career for someone starting out from scratch. This is however based upon my experiences of the changes wrought over the last 30 years. My son views it differently and is actively pursuing the requisites required to enter FPP programs. Despite my misgivings I can see the dedication (a word not often used in the same sentence as 'teenager'
) he has therefore I will support him all the way and may he have as fun and fulfilling career as I have enjoyed. Cheers
Wirbs
Wirbs....good post.
Whenever I'm approached on the topic my advice is look don't look at me and my lifestyle,or aspire to my T&Cs, cos in the blink of an eye they'll be gone. I tell youngsters contemplating the career to go look at the T&Cs at the likes of Norwegian, because that's at best where the managed (or not) decline in T&Cs is taking everybody if the CEOs get their way.
For those who don't think it can happen at the Big Airline they aspire to after a few years at a LoCO... at BA the legacy cabin crew contract (very nice) ended overnight and was replaced by something very very different. The only thing stopping them doing the same to pilot T&Cs is the union...and they're slowly giving ground.
but anyhow good luck to your son...
Whenever I'm approached on the topic my advice is look don't look at me and my lifestyle,or aspire to my T&Cs, cos in the blink of an eye they'll be gone. I tell youngsters contemplating the career to go look at the T&Cs at the likes of Norwegian, because that's at best where the managed (or not) decline in T&Cs is taking everybody if the CEOs get their way.
For those who don't think it can happen at the Big Airline they aspire to after a few years at a LoCO... at BA the legacy cabin crew contract (very nice) ended overnight and was replaced by something very very different. The only thing stopping them doing the same to pilot T&Cs is the union...and they're slowly giving ground.
but anyhow good luck to your son...
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I'm a little confused by all NO responses I've read here. I am not a pilot but have two friends who are Captains on major US airlines. We spend a lot of time visiting here in the marina, drinking beer, sailing and discussing life. 40-some years ago I was accepted into the United Airlines ab-initio program but then chose to pursue a career with those new gadgets known as computers. I pester my captain friends with endless questions about life as a pilot and their choice of that lifestyle compared to my life of traveling the world as a computer geek.
They both love their jobs and are enthusiastic about the work. One is a very junior captain who seldom gets anything he bids. The other has five years as a Captain and can hold some of his bids.
They both look forward to work and also the many interesting opportunities for travel. They are both 20-year US military fast jet veterans who also served many years in the reserves.
Is life for a captain at a major US carrier that much better than for the other pilot jobs I read about here in this thread?
They both love their jobs and are enthusiastic about the work. One is a very junior captain who seldom gets anything he bids. The other has five years as a Captain and can hold some of his bids.
They both look forward to work and also the many interesting opportunities for travel. They are both 20-year US military fast jet veterans who also served many years in the reserves.
Is life for a captain at a major US carrier that much better than for the other pilot jobs I read about here in this thread?
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Tacoma,
It's swings and roundabouts. From shortly after the turn of the century (9/11) until recently, it was quite the opposite.
US Legacy carrier pilots took enormous cuts and concessions, so went from being some of the best major airlines in the world to work for, to some of the worst. Their pay was dwarfed by the likes of BA, Lufthansa, KLM, CX, EK etc... As you know, multiple bankruptcies leveraged the workforce into the corner.
Thankfully they are now reversing that trend, and are making up for lost ground. In my opinion, where the US major carriers have beaten the rest of the world is the rostering practices. While you'll hear moans from the beneficiaries of the contract, they are head and shoulders above the rest of the world..
I think the current thread, on a Europe-centric message board is a delayed version of what happened in the US in the last decade. Things are slipping and morale is in the dumpster.
What you think of the industry or your employer is one thing, and there are plenty of opinions and differences there. What happens when the door closes and you call for push is largely the same throughout the industry, and it is still a superb way to earn a crust. We just wish the crust would stop shrinking, as it seems to have on your side of the Atlantic (for now).
It's swings and roundabouts. From shortly after the turn of the century (9/11) until recently, it was quite the opposite.
US Legacy carrier pilots took enormous cuts and concessions, so went from being some of the best major airlines in the world to work for, to some of the worst. Their pay was dwarfed by the likes of BA, Lufthansa, KLM, CX, EK etc... As you know, multiple bankruptcies leveraged the workforce into the corner.
Thankfully they are now reversing that trend, and are making up for lost ground. In my opinion, where the US major carriers have beaten the rest of the world is the rostering practices. While you'll hear moans from the beneficiaries of the contract, they are head and shoulders above the rest of the world..
I think the current thread, on a Europe-centric message board is a delayed version of what happened in the US in the last decade. Things are slipping and morale is in the dumpster.
What you think of the industry or your employer is one thing, and there are plenty of opinions and differences there. What happens when the door closes and you call for push is largely the same throughout the industry, and it is still a superb way to earn a crust. We just wish the crust would stop shrinking, as it seems to have on your side of the Atlantic (for now).