Austrian vs Eurowings
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Austrian vs Eurowings
Hi all,
I have a tough decision to take:
I am a greenhorn coming from Lufthansa integrated MPL Training fighting to get my first Job in a Cockpit. Since there are no Jobs to be expected at LH in the next 1-2 years we are currently being offered FO seats at Austrian Airlines' Dash 8 as well as Eurowings Europe A320. Both Jobs are limited to 2 years (with option to extend) and will include a respective Type Rating and Line Training in beforehand . Both will be based in Vienna.
What you need to know about me is that I will need to shuttle to Hamburg, Germany due to personal reasons, which would not change too quickly.
Ive identified the following +0- for the two Options:
AUA
+ Decent respectable and stable Airline
+ Dash 8 appears to me as an interesting A/C (system wise)
+ nice short legs and interessting destinations
+ better pay than EW but still mediocre in the long run
0 mostly chains with layovers
- Dash 8 might be a deadend in regard to further career, no upgrades within the first 5 years to be expected
- no possibility to change to an airline based in HAm with DAsHs
- Tough Dutyplans, minimum off-days, high dutytime, low flighthours
- Only Turbine Time, no Jet Time
EW Europe (not Eurowings Germany)
+ Fast Track to A320 Type Rating
+ New company, possible further career opportunities,
+ would be one of the very first pilots starting - maybe fast track to CPT in terms of seniority (however there is no official seniority system)
+ very low chance for opportunity to be based in HAM in the next years
0 no layovers
- very, very bad pay for an A320 FO (about 2000€ net + 50€ per extra sectors, however only after 280 sectors being flown in one year)
- 280 sectors per year as up to now will not be reached.
- new AOC, unstable Ops
- support of pilot-outsourcing from expensive german contracts (Lufthansa strategy)
- undermining of our german union
- Very, very bad pay!
- up to now very low flight time per month (~30h) due to run up of operations, expected to normalize in the next months - many stby days
- minimum off days to be expected
- would prefer a Turboprop as a 1st type
Main question is: Does the A320 TR overweigh the negative points enough, or is it better to aim for the Dash and risk being stuck there.
Appreciate your bias.
herrmx
I have a tough decision to take:
I am a greenhorn coming from Lufthansa integrated MPL Training fighting to get my first Job in a Cockpit. Since there are no Jobs to be expected at LH in the next 1-2 years we are currently being offered FO seats at Austrian Airlines' Dash 8 as well as Eurowings Europe A320. Both Jobs are limited to 2 years (with option to extend) and will include a respective Type Rating and Line Training in beforehand . Both will be based in Vienna.
What you need to know about me is that I will need to shuttle to Hamburg, Germany due to personal reasons, which would not change too quickly.
Ive identified the following +0- for the two Options:
AUA
+ Decent respectable and stable Airline
+ Dash 8 appears to me as an interesting A/C (system wise)
+ nice short legs and interessting destinations
+ better pay than EW but still mediocre in the long run
0 mostly chains with layovers
- Dash 8 might be a deadend in regard to further career, no upgrades within the first 5 years to be expected
- no possibility to change to an airline based in HAm with DAsHs
- Tough Dutyplans, minimum off-days, high dutytime, low flighthours
- Only Turbine Time, no Jet Time
EW Europe (not Eurowings Germany)
+ Fast Track to A320 Type Rating
+ New company, possible further career opportunities,
+ would be one of the very first pilots starting - maybe fast track to CPT in terms of seniority (however there is no official seniority system)
+ very low chance for opportunity to be based in HAM in the next years
0 no layovers
- very, very bad pay for an A320 FO (about 2000€ net + 50€ per extra sectors, however only after 280 sectors being flown in one year)
- 280 sectors per year as up to now will not be reached.
- new AOC, unstable Ops
- support of pilot-outsourcing from expensive german contracts (Lufthansa strategy)
- undermining of our german union
- Very, very bad pay!
- up to now very low flight time per month (~30h) due to run up of operations, expected to normalize in the next months - many stby days
- minimum off days to be expected
- would prefer a Turboprop as a 1st type
Main question is: Does the A320 TR overweigh the negative points enough, or is it better to aim for the Dash and risk being stuck there.
Appreciate your bias.
herrmx
Last edited by herrmxx; 23rd Sep 2016 at 09:17.
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Main question is: Does the A320 TR overweigh the negative points enough, or is it better to aim for the Dash and risk being stuck there.
PZ
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@safelife: unfortunately not, this is a base of Eurowings Deutschland - they have different (much better) contracts...
@PZ
why is it a nowbrainer for you? Taking into account my considerations, it's not...
@PZ
why is it a nowbrainer for you? Taking into account my considerations, it's not...
So you don't like FBW, you don't like A320 because of too much automation, pay is crap.. and your real-life experience is zero at this moment.
Choose the A320 I am sure it will be a pleasure to take a selfie or two with you in the cockpit.
Choose the A320 I am sure it will be a pleasure to take a selfie or two with you in the cockpit.
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First of all I do not work for Austrian or Eurowings Europe but I have heard a lot of people complain about the payment at Eurowings Europe before and I find it quite annoying that people do not take the time to look at the facts.
The payment at Eurowings Europe is not very bad, in fact it is simply average for what you get in Europe at this time.
Check out the facts here and go beyond looking at it for two seconds only:
https://www.career.aero/eurowings/de/jobseeker/info
At Eurowings Europe you will be paid €44.050 a year minimum even if you do not fly one single day (30.000 basic plus guaranteed 281 sectors whether flown or not for €14.050). In addition, you get €1,40 per diem for each hour that you are away from your base.
What payment is actually realistic? Let's calculate very conservative and say you only work 15 days a month and let's say you will fly on average 2,5 sectors (again very conservative as you will fly 4 sectors a lot of the time).
So let's say you work 15 days in 11 months and fly 2,5 sectors. That equals 412 sectors.
Flying 412 sectors you would make €50.600 a year (per diem excluded). An Austrian FO makes €53.100 in his first year. As I said already you will probably fly more than 412 sectors. Either way the payment at both airlines is about the same.
After five years you would make about €67.000 for flying 15 days a month 2.5 sectors on average.
What is negative about Eurowings Europe in my opinon is that there is no pay increase for 5 years, you only have 7 days off guaranteed and you cannot request anything. The payment however isn't different from most other airlines offering you a contract at this time.
If I were you I would fly the A320 at Eurwowings Europe. It will give you more opportunities to change jobs if you decide to do so later on in life.
The payment at Eurowings Europe is not very bad, in fact it is simply average for what you get in Europe at this time.
Check out the facts here and go beyond looking at it for two seconds only:
https://www.career.aero/eurowings/de/jobseeker/info
At Eurowings Europe you will be paid €44.050 a year minimum even if you do not fly one single day (30.000 basic plus guaranteed 281 sectors whether flown or not for €14.050). In addition, you get €1,40 per diem for each hour that you are away from your base.
What payment is actually realistic? Let's calculate very conservative and say you only work 15 days a month and let's say you will fly on average 2,5 sectors (again very conservative as you will fly 4 sectors a lot of the time).
So let's say you work 15 days in 11 months and fly 2,5 sectors. That equals 412 sectors.
Flying 412 sectors you would make €50.600 a year (per diem excluded). An Austrian FO makes €53.100 in his first year. As I said already you will probably fly more than 412 sectors. Either way the payment at both airlines is about the same.
After five years you would make about €67.000 for flying 15 days a month 2.5 sectors on average.
What is negative about Eurowings Europe in my opinon is that there is no pay increase for 5 years, you only have 7 days off guaranteed and you cannot request anything. The payment however isn't different from most other airlines offering you a contract at this time.
If I were you I would fly the A320 at Eurwowings Europe. It will give you more opportunities to change jobs if you decide to do so later on in life.
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definitely go to Eurowings. As both contracs are short time only, but better type rating. You won't ever get into KTV anyways.
@the number guy , yeah The FO money is not so low low, just around half of what a LH FO makes :o
@the number guy , yeah The FO money is not so low low, just around half of what a LH FO makes :o
This is a decision You have to take on Your own in the end.
Let me add a few points though for Your consideration.
- Both contracts are limited to 2 years at the moment. OS (definitely) but presumably also EW are interested in retaining as many of You as practicable afterwards, but 2 years is a long time with regards to the current situation of LH and associated companies.
- You are a NFF and obviously and understandably interested in joining LH. This may or may not become possible again and is subject to what VC and the GL come up with in their (currently halted as far as I know) negotiations.
- The moral objections against joining Eurowings are shared by many, not only in LH, but also in other companies.
Those points made, let me play advocate of the devil and speak in favour of the DH8 with Austrian.
The Dash is an aircraft of a category You will likely never see again in Your career. It comes with operational peculiarities that are well worth seeing and able to add a bit to Your flying experience. A network ranging from large airports like FRA to small mountain airfields like Lugano, in an aircraft limited to FL250 and offering rather little assistence to its crews compared to an Airbus brings some challenges that are well worth seeing for some time in a career. In fact, the rather many NFF we have on this fleet at the moment seem to like both the aircraft and the fleet quite a lot.
With regards to the career cul-de-sac that the DH8 is apparently considered by several around here: this is in fact not the case at Austrian; neither is it the case, should it become possible for You to join LH afterwards. Several DH8 F/Os, among them some NFFs with a bit less than 2 years of service on the DH8, are at the moment sitting in the ERJ 190-200 type rating class. Applications for other fleets are honoured only depending on seniority, not depending on the type previously flown, and the success rate of those type ratings gives no reason at all to change this. Most pilots who have flown both a jet and a turboprop will agree that the (any!) jet they are trained on is much easier to fly and operate than the turboprop, and there is no reason to believe that anyone who has mastered the DH8 will have problems mastering any jet.
Let me add a few points though for Your consideration.
- Both contracts are limited to 2 years at the moment. OS (definitely) but presumably also EW are interested in retaining as many of You as practicable afterwards, but 2 years is a long time with regards to the current situation of LH and associated companies.
- You are a NFF and obviously and understandably interested in joining LH. This may or may not become possible again and is subject to what VC and the GL come up with in their (currently halted as far as I know) negotiations.
- The moral objections against joining Eurowings are shared by many, not only in LH, but also in other companies.
Those points made, let me play advocate of the devil and speak in favour of the DH8 with Austrian.
The Dash is an aircraft of a category You will likely never see again in Your career. It comes with operational peculiarities that are well worth seeing and able to add a bit to Your flying experience. A network ranging from large airports like FRA to small mountain airfields like Lugano, in an aircraft limited to FL250 and offering rather little assistence to its crews compared to an Airbus brings some challenges that are well worth seeing for some time in a career. In fact, the rather many NFF we have on this fleet at the moment seem to like both the aircraft and the fleet quite a lot.
With regards to the career cul-de-sac that the DH8 is apparently considered by several around here: this is in fact not the case at Austrian; neither is it the case, should it become possible for You to join LH afterwards. Several DH8 F/Os, among them some NFFs with a bit less than 2 years of service on the DH8, are at the moment sitting in the ERJ 190-200 type rating class. Applications for other fleets are honoured only depending on seniority, not depending on the type previously flown, and the success rate of those type ratings gives no reason at all to change this. Most pilots who have flown both a jet and a turboprop will agree that the (any!) jet they are trained on is much easier to fly and operate than the turboprop, and there is no reason to believe that anyone who has mastered the DH8 will have problems mastering any jet.
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Forget about the aircraft type...
One option is a "project" with no collective agreement, no seniority and boring 4 sector days.
The other option is an airline with a collective agreement, seniority and interesting flying.
If you want to commute to HAM you will spend more time there flying for AUA.
If EW opens up a base there (and KTV is still closed) you can always make the jump in 2 years...
One option is a "project" with no collective agreement, no seniority and boring 4 sector days.
The other option is an airline with a collective agreement, seniority and interesting flying.
If you want to commute to HAM you will spend more time there flying for AUA.
If EW opens up a base there (and KTV is still closed) you can always make the jump in 2 years...
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Dear all,
thank you very much for your input - I cannot emphasize enough how I appreciate your feedback.
I know that EW resambles a pact with the devil. I would only do that in order to open perspective to one day come back to Hamburg - If you ask me, I dont expect LH to open up for new entries in a reasonable time.
For me the experience at the interview days at Austrian were highly positive. I liked the atmosphere, and indeed most of the fellow NFFs that found a place there are happy, though of course there is this prevailing rivalry between TP and Jet pilots (which I really don't understand) that makes you feel 2nd class as a Dash Pilot.
I would immediatly sign at AUA if there wouldn't be the unspeakable offer from EW to jump the queue getting a A320 TR and indicating possibilities of opening up oppertunities to fly from Hamburg one day (I know this might never happen within EW Europe at least, but maybe there will be some kind of merger between EW Germany/ germanwings and Eurowings Europe that may open some doors.
thank you very much for your input - I cannot emphasize enough how I appreciate your feedback.
I know that EW resambles a pact with the devil. I would only do that in order to open perspective to one day come back to Hamburg - If you ask me, I dont expect LH to open up for new entries in a reasonable time.
For me the experience at the interview days at Austrian were highly positive. I liked the atmosphere, and indeed most of the fellow NFFs that found a place there are happy, though of course there is this prevailing rivalry between TP and Jet pilots (which I really don't understand) that makes you feel 2nd class as a Dash Pilot.
I would immediatly sign at AUA if there wouldn't be the unspeakable offer from EW to jump the queue getting a A320 TR and indicating possibilities of opening up oppertunities to fly from Hamburg one day (I know this might never happen within EW Europe at least, but maybe there will be some kind of merger between EW Germany/ germanwings and Eurowings Europe that may open some doors.
Last edited by herrmxx; 26th Sep 2016 at 10:05.
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@TU.114
Thanks for your words. We are definitly on the same page. However, I have talked a lot with several AUA functionaries about the future on the DASH. True, currently some of the NFF flying the DASH approaching the end of their second year were offered an extension of the contract with an ERJ TR. However, this might not be the case in 2,5 years any more, since AUA is now introducing their own integral courses for ERJ and pushing ready entries as well. So, I have been told by certain people at AUA who know their onion, that especially the ones starting now, might not get the next A/C within the next 5 years (all far away, you don't have to tell me)
Again, I'm not one of those "I need a jet under my butt to look awesome" types. I prefer TP, especially in the beginning. I will be hanging around in a server room long enough, for sure - it's just about the possibility to chose my base (haha)
Thanks for your words. We are definitly on the same page. However, I have talked a lot with several AUA functionaries about the future on the DASH. True, currently some of the NFF flying the DASH approaching the end of their second year were offered an extension of the contract with an ERJ TR. However, this might not be the case in 2,5 years any more, since AUA is now introducing their own integral courses for ERJ and pushing ready entries as well. So, I have been told by certain people at AUA who know their onion, that especially the ones starting now, might not get the next A/C within the next 5 years (all far away, you don't have to tell me)
Again, I'm not one of those "I need a jet under my butt to look awesome" types. I prefer TP, especially in the beginning. I will be hanging around in a server room long enough, for sure - it's just about the possibility to chose my base (haha)
Last edited by herrmxx; 26th Sep 2016 at 10:05.
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Aircraftwise: Eurowings
Anything else: Austrian
I think the chances to join LH are slim to non existent anyway. AUA is the better long term option in my opinion. Plus: skiing on your days off!!!
Anything else: Austrian
I think the chances to join LH are slim to non existent anyway. AUA is the better long term option in my opinion. Plus: skiing on your days off!!!
Go for Airbus.
As I have spent 5000ish hrs in condition levers equipped aeroplanes and escaped turboprop trap merely on insane amount of good luck... twice, I don't deny I'm severely biased.
It's not just Dash8, any turboprop time is worth very little when one needs to change company while the times are good. When the times are average and below, it is worthless. Oh, sure, it was great fun flying ATR down 10deg descent path or making greasers in Q400 (ok, ok, 1 in 50) but checking for entry requirements everywhere and finding them all just asking for jet time while my company was culling its pilots herd made nasty offset for the fun I had. Overall, I found turboprops more difficult to fly and operate than jets but not many companies or jet jockeys would admit that.
Regarding the FBW and automatics on 320, I had heard a lot of stories and expected it to be some kind of hard-to-tame technical monstrosity so I was quite disappointed to find it quite simple, intuitive, well thought out and flying nicely even with FBW shot up. Heck, except for being noisier, with cramped cockpit (bigger than DHC-8's though), rudimentary ergonomic and a bit more difficult to slow down, 738 is IMHO not much different from A320. Sidestick? Two minutes to learn, two to unlearn. Never met anyone who had problems converting to Airbus controls or going back to classic, even my classmate who started flying 320 at 200TT, flew nothing else and then at 6K went to Q400 LHS had no problems at all although he was not very enthusiastic about exchanging ECAM for Caution and warning panel.
Basically I'm saying times are wobbly and suggesting to go for the more valuable type rather than a promise of career which may materialize or not.
As I have spent 5000ish hrs in condition levers equipped aeroplanes and escaped turboprop trap merely on insane amount of good luck... twice, I don't deny I'm severely biased.
It's not just Dash8, any turboprop time is worth very little when one needs to change company while the times are good. When the times are average and below, it is worthless. Oh, sure, it was great fun flying ATR down 10deg descent path or making greasers in Q400 (ok, ok, 1 in 50) but checking for entry requirements everywhere and finding them all just asking for jet time while my company was culling its pilots herd made nasty offset for the fun I had. Overall, I found turboprops more difficult to fly and operate than jets but not many companies or jet jockeys would admit that.
Regarding the FBW and automatics on 320, I had heard a lot of stories and expected it to be some kind of hard-to-tame technical monstrosity so I was quite disappointed to find it quite simple, intuitive, well thought out and flying nicely even with FBW shot up. Heck, except for being noisier, with cramped cockpit (bigger than DHC-8's though), rudimentary ergonomic and a bit more difficult to slow down, 738 is IMHO not much different from A320. Sidestick? Two minutes to learn, two to unlearn. Never met anyone who had problems converting to Airbus controls or going back to classic, even my classmate who started flying 320 at 200TT, flew nothing else and then at 6K went to Q400 LHS had no problems at all although he was not very enthusiastic about exchanging ECAM for Caution and warning panel.
Basically I'm saying times are wobbly and suggesting to go for the more valuable type rather than a promise of career which may materialize or not.
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I would take the Airbus. What other airline options are typically offered to Greenhorns? What about SWISS - is that an option for others? Wouldn't mind hanging out in the new C-Series for a few years. Of course not a marketable type like the Airbus...
Last edited by Iver; 11th Sep 2016 at 00:22.
Of course, talking about the future and what it may bring holds some uncertainty. However, also with some stagnation in thw company, you would not be stuck on the DH8 forever. The collective agreement has a paragraph requiring the company to offer half of any number of open A320 and ERJ F/O positions to the group of DH8 F/Os. Only the other half and, in case of not enough applications, the positions not taken by the DH8 crews, are allowed to be filled by external new hires. While the exact time that will be spent on the DH8 will of course be subject to various factors, this rule is definitely a large door leading to a jet rating.
Also, none of the NFFs that are trained for the ERJ at the moment have signed for any extension of their 2 years period until today. They are all waiting for what the negotiations between LH, OS and VC will result in.
Also, none of the NFFs that are trained for the ERJ at the moment have signed for any extension of their 2 years period until today. They are all waiting for what the negotiations between LH, OS and VC will result in.
Last edited by Tu.114; 11th Sep 2016 at 12:01.
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Here's my take, for what it's worth...
Given your present logbook (assuming as you say you are a greenhorn and MPL, your hours and operational background at the moment are mostly in your future and not in your past), I would go for the Dash instead of the Airbus. Let me elaborate....
First of all, your personal reasons for commuting will always go ahead of anything else. Is it possible for the same personal reasons (family I'm guessing) to relocate? How about in 2 years from now? Only you know the answer to these questions.
Anyhow, between the 2 airlines, as you are an up and coming airman, being in a situation where you actually can choose between 2 employers, always, I say again, ALWAYS, go for the stable, legacy carrier. Now, before everybody slams their touchscreen keyboards, consider the longterm career. Yes, the path to the left seat will take significantly more time. Yes, your longterm pay will be (probably) less than a rather quick upgrade with a new, smaller carrier. And yes, you will start on what is by many considered as an inferior type. However, all this falls behind a few things. First of all ask yourself, as a newbie, if a union could be a positive thing to be a part of? Could a seniority list be something that gives you foresight? How about payscales, retirement plans, roster stability, certain other benefits that have already been negotiated for you? And guess what.... Flying a turboprop, with shorter sectors (more departures and approaches) actually hones your flying skills (albeit the automation is well applied). The Q400 is also appreciated by an increasing number of airlines who now are hiring, so I wouldn't be worries about that. But how about the AUA fleet? A renewable 2 year contract with AUA might just place you on another type within a few years anyway.
But at the end of the day it's a personal choice. I have never flown for a lowcost carrier, never been on a contract or had to worry about the things I read about on pprune. Never had to worry. Crew on that for a little while. The "downside"? Still FO at 40.... On the otherhand, pay, roster stability, benefits (pension plan) and lifestyle easily outweigh flying the mediumhaul jets around the European circuit. BTW, since I fly the small Dashes, I'm completely biased regarding types
Choose the one which you think will make you happy, and adjust everything else accordingly. But could you let us know your choice, and your reasons, once you have made it?
Given your present logbook (assuming as you say you are a greenhorn and MPL, your hours and operational background at the moment are mostly in your future and not in your past), I would go for the Dash instead of the Airbus. Let me elaborate....
First of all, your personal reasons for commuting will always go ahead of anything else. Is it possible for the same personal reasons (family I'm guessing) to relocate? How about in 2 years from now? Only you know the answer to these questions.
Anyhow, between the 2 airlines, as you are an up and coming airman, being in a situation where you actually can choose between 2 employers, always, I say again, ALWAYS, go for the stable, legacy carrier. Now, before everybody slams their touchscreen keyboards, consider the longterm career. Yes, the path to the left seat will take significantly more time. Yes, your longterm pay will be (probably) less than a rather quick upgrade with a new, smaller carrier. And yes, you will start on what is by many considered as an inferior type. However, all this falls behind a few things. First of all ask yourself, as a newbie, if a union could be a positive thing to be a part of? Could a seniority list be something that gives you foresight? How about payscales, retirement plans, roster stability, certain other benefits that have already been negotiated for you? And guess what.... Flying a turboprop, with shorter sectors (more departures and approaches) actually hones your flying skills (albeit the automation is well applied). The Q400 is also appreciated by an increasing number of airlines who now are hiring, so I wouldn't be worries about that. But how about the AUA fleet? A renewable 2 year contract with AUA might just place you on another type within a few years anyway.
But at the end of the day it's a personal choice. I have never flown for a lowcost carrier, never been on a contract or had to worry about the things I read about on pprune. Never had to worry. Crew on that for a little while. The "downside"? Still FO at 40.... On the otherhand, pay, roster stability, benefits (pension plan) and lifestyle easily outweigh flying the mediumhaul jets around the European circuit. BTW, since I fly the small Dashes, I'm completely biased regarding types
Choose the one which you think will make you happy, and adjust everything else accordingly. But could you let us know your choice, and your reasons, once you have made it?
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Jet everytime. Regardless of what image you try and portrait it to be, it's the type that future proofs you as a pilot. After several years you won't care about the type, size or engines, just your life style and opportunities. A dash introduces another stepping stone in getting to that settled position.