Cityjet Ts&Cs
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Cityjet Ts&Cs
Hello chaps,
Can anyone advise on current take home pay as a RJ skipper and typical rosters at Cityjet? When will AMS be an option for basing?
Cheers!
Can anyone advise on current take home pay as a RJ skipper and typical rosters at Cityjet? When will AMS be an option for basing?
Cheers!
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Hi, different bases will have very different net take home due local tax arrangements,
In London expect 5000-5500gbp net. Rosters are 6 on 3 off, mix of 2/4 sector days, or trips of up to 5 nights away. Ams base starting november will change that to maybe less nights away. I think they are/have recruited for ams already, high tax but good for the dutch..
In London expect 5000-5500gbp net. Rosters are 6 on 3 off, mix of 2/4 sector days, or trips of up to 5 nights away. Ams base starting november will change that to maybe less nights away. I think they are/have recruited for ams already, high tax but good for the dutch..
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Agree with Thewire; UK numbers below:
Salary has remained ~£63k since 2009, payfreeze thawing, so may increase 1-2% every year after this.
Allowances ~£1000-2000pm, most of which is untaxed at the moment. This will likely reduce after opening of AMS base. Irish Revenue tax higher; there's always the possibility that HMRC may change it's view in future as well.
Pension 5% matched.
Loss of Licence and all the usual.
Rosters have varied hugely and have frequently been 'a tad' late. The roster is fixed until the end of next season and then who knows.... There was a figure of 115 days off per year and 28 days A/L per year floating around a while ago.
LHS - very busy, 3-4 sector days the norm.
A/L for skippers can be 'hard to come by'. Don't expect to have the ability to request specific days off.
Flexibility is required, but compensated.
The RJ's are not the newest aircraft in the world; you will work for a living.
Salary has remained ~£63k since 2009, payfreeze thawing, so may increase 1-2% every year after this.
Allowances ~£1000-2000pm, most of which is untaxed at the moment. This will likely reduce after opening of AMS base. Irish Revenue tax higher; there's always the possibility that HMRC may change it's view in future as well.
Pension 5% matched.
Loss of Licence and all the usual.
Rosters have varied hugely and have frequently been 'a tad' late. The roster is fixed until the end of next season and then who knows.... There was a figure of 115 days off per year and 28 days A/L per year floating around a while ago.
LHS - very busy, 3-4 sector days the norm.
A/L for skippers can be 'hard to come by'. Don't expect to have the ability to request specific days off.
Flexibility is required, but compensated.
The RJ's are not the newest aircraft in the world; you will work for a living.
Last edited by throwaway85; 5th Sep 2016 at 13:56.
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To be fair to you, you should know that lots of people have left in the last 12 months, and a number of those who have joined in that time are leaving again.
Nobody wants to be the last man standing when the music stops. Make sure you have a safe place to sit down within easy reach....
I suspect that I know an ex-colleague of yours. He should be able to fill you in.
Nobody wants to be the last man standing when the music stops. Make sure you have a safe place to sit down within easy reach....
I suspect that I know an ex-colleague of yours. He should be able to fill you in.
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Please tell us what you know throwaway i was looking at cityjet too and was under the impression they were financially fine now. If you know differant share with us before people make big mistakes
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I'm not going to speculate as to why people are leaving but it's not because CJ is about to go bust.
I think everyone makes decisions that are best for themselves. It just happens that quite a lot of people have found that the best option for them is elsewhere. Equally, lots of people have joined, no doubt because that was the best decision for themselves. If you know what you're getting into, are happy with that, then CJ is the right decision for you. If not, don't apply! Do make sure you know what you are getting into though.
CJ is expanding very quickly and there are no financial issues. It's likely that much of the money is investment rather than revenue at the moment, but consider that that investment money wouldn't be arriving if there wasn't the anticipation of a return.
I think everyone makes decisions that are best for themselves. It just happens that quite a lot of people have found that the best option for them is elsewhere. Equally, lots of people have joined, no doubt because that was the best decision for themselves. If you know what you're getting into, are happy with that, then CJ is the right decision for you. If not, don't apply! Do make sure you know what you are getting into though.
CJ is expanding very quickly and there are no financial issues. It's likely that much of the money is investment rather than revenue at the moment, but consider that that investment money wouldn't be arriving if there wasn't the anticipation of a return.
Last edited by throwaway85; 9th Sep 2016 at 11:20. Reason: clarity
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Common throwaway, "alot of people are leaveing and some that have joined in the last 12 months are leaving too.......but im not going to speculate why people are leaving" you seem to know so much and yet so little.
I am looking at either london or dublin base moving from middle east DEC, i do not know what im getting myself into, and possibly other people reading this dont aswell. Please help us all out if you know something, this is what this forum is for, it would be appreciated.
I am looking at either london or dublin base moving from middle east DEC, i do not know what im getting myself into, and possibly other people reading this dont aswell. Please help us all out if you know something, this is what this forum is for, it would be appreciated.
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CJ was an ACMI operator for AF. Once it left the fold it lost its way a bit, and had 2 revenue streams; legacy work for AF and it's own routes out of LCY. VLM fits in here as well, but is not key to the story. It was this period that it failed to make any money.
Founder returned, and turned things around. At present lots of effort going into new ACMI work (CJ nordic, finland operation with CRJs) and charters (SSJ). RJ's on core operation need replacing, but can't use SSJ on LCY operation (can't land there yet) or AF network. The AF work is scheduled to ramp down by next year and the LCY operation has been more or less ignored of late.
Future seems to be a mix of ACMI contract work and charters. Crew flexibility is core to this. Recent events indicate that in future crew:
1) may find their base being changed at short notice having been given a base elsewhere at selection. Crew already in a base may also be moved.
2) find themselves bonded for the SSJ after having paid for the RJ rating.
3) the closest thing that there is to a rostering agreement at present are the ICAO FDP rules. You will work to the legal limits. Captain's Discretion seems to form part of operational planning. Fatigue is best managed by drinking coffee.
4) Because there is no rostering agreement, as crewing levels have collapsed, remaining crew have had more and more asked of them - think working more days every year, denied leave, disrupted rosters, and pressure to work days off.
4) There is presently a fixed roster, implemented presumably to stem the flow. However, it will only run until April 2017. After that, you will not know your days off more than one roster ahead. Your (statutory minimum) annual leave will frequently be denied, especially during the summer holiday period. Net result is that you will not be able to make or confirm any social plans more than 4-6 weeks ahead - assuming the roster is on time.
5) CJ used to be a company where the best thing about it was the crew, but so many have left that it's a completely different atmosphere. A lot of people are there to get their hours and move on.
7) The RJ's are literally falling to bits. It is unusual to have an aircraft not carrying defects. Due to frequent tech issues it is unusual to finish on time. The SSJ is too new to really comment; apparently it's great, but there have been a few issues. It's a new type and that is to be expected.
8) Operational 'planning' makes the situation worse, for example on some routes crew wait for scheduled hotel transport on minimum rest (10h) overnights. In accordance with FTL's 1h of this time can be spent travelling....Other routes the duty time is so very close to max FDP that discretion and delayed reporting is common.
That's the bad stuff. The good stuff is:
1) Pay is more or less OK, you will be paid in time and correctly. Irish Revenue take a fair chunk of allowances, but for the moment in the UK the HMRC tax treatment of allowances is generous meaning that Net pay is higher than at other (similar, i.e. Stobart, CityFlyer, Flybe) airlines.
2) Staff travel is OK.
3) Some of the flying is fun, especially if you enjoy simulator LOFT sessions.....
4) The company is secure for the moment. It's expanding very, very quickly, but on the back of investment capital. It is reasonable to assume that this investment will put the company on a more profitable path.
5) Recruitment is beginning to catch up with attrition so rosters/AL should improve.
6) The 7 year pay freeze seems close to being lifted. Though, perhaps the existence of a Seven. Year. Pay. Freeze. should be in the negatives section.
So, if I were to speculate why I and so many others before me have left, it would be that there is no good reason for them to stay; neither the pay, nor the flying, nor the lifestyle, nor the roster are better than the available alternatives (Aer Lingus, Jet2, EasyJet, BA, Ryanair even CityFlyer). But, CityJet is perfect for those who need some jet time to forward their career.
Founder returned, and turned things around. At present lots of effort going into new ACMI work (CJ nordic, finland operation with CRJs) and charters (SSJ). RJ's on core operation need replacing, but can't use SSJ on LCY operation (can't land there yet) or AF network. The AF work is scheduled to ramp down by next year and the LCY operation has been more or less ignored of late.
Future seems to be a mix of ACMI contract work and charters. Crew flexibility is core to this. Recent events indicate that in future crew:
1) may find their base being changed at short notice having been given a base elsewhere at selection. Crew already in a base may also be moved.
2) find themselves bonded for the SSJ after having paid for the RJ rating.
3) the closest thing that there is to a rostering agreement at present are the ICAO FDP rules. You will work to the legal limits. Captain's Discretion seems to form part of operational planning. Fatigue is best managed by drinking coffee.
4) Because there is no rostering agreement, as crewing levels have collapsed, remaining crew have had more and more asked of them - think working more days every year, denied leave, disrupted rosters, and pressure to work days off.
4) There is presently a fixed roster, implemented presumably to stem the flow. However, it will only run until April 2017. After that, you will not know your days off more than one roster ahead. Your (statutory minimum) annual leave will frequently be denied, especially during the summer holiday period. Net result is that you will not be able to make or confirm any social plans more than 4-6 weeks ahead - assuming the roster is on time.
5) CJ used to be a company where the best thing about it was the crew, but so many have left that it's a completely different atmosphere. A lot of people are there to get their hours and move on.
7) The RJ's are literally falling to bits. It is unusual to have an aircraft not carrying defects. Due to frequent tech issues it is unusual to finish on time. The SSJ is too new to really comment; apparently it's great, but there have been a few issues. It's a new type and that is to be expected.
8) Operational 'planning' makes the situation worse, for example on some routes crew wait for scheduled hotel transport on minimum rest (10h) overnights. In accordance with FTL's 1h of this time can be spent travelling....Other routes the duty time is so very close to max FDP that discretion and delayed reporting is common.
That's the bad stuff. The good stuff is:
1) Pay is more or less OK, you will be paid in time and correctly. Irish Revenue take a fair chunk of allowances, but for the moment in the UK the HMRC tax treatment of allowances is generous meaning that Net pay is higher than at other (similar, i.e. Stobart, CityFlyer, Flybe) airlines.
2) Staff travel is OK.
3) Some of the flying is fun, especially if you enjoy simulator LOFT sessions.....
4) The company is secure for the moment. It's expanding very, very quickly, but on the back of investment capital. It is reasonable to assume that this investment will put the company on a more profitable path.
5) Recruitment is beginning to catch up with attrition so rosters/AL should improve.
6) The 7 year pay freeze seems close to being lifted. Though, perhaps the existence of a Seven. Year. Pay. Freeze. should be in the negatives section.
So, if I were to speculate why I and so many others before me have left, it would be that there is no good reason for them to stay; neither the pay, nor the flying, nor the lifestyle, nor the roster are better than the available alternatives (Aer Lingus, Jet2, EasyJet, BA, Ryanair even CityFlyer). But, CityJet is perfect for those who need some jet time to forward their career.
Last edited by throwaway85; 11th Sep 2016 at 21:11.
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Great points throwaway thankyou for the post and your time in writing it!
I'm not sure cityjet would be a good option for gaining jet flying experience although for the newbies, the 146 and the ssj are very uncommon aircraft types and also light, going to one of the low cost carriers would be a much better place to start in my opinion.
Lets hope cityjet works on good lifestyle and bases to attract pilots, as it seems theres is not much else in the pot to offer!
I'm not sure cityjet would be a good option for gaining jet flying experience although for the newbies, the 146 and the ssj are very uncommon aircraft types and also light, going to one of the low cost carriers would be a much better place to start in my opinion.
Lets hope cityjet works on good lifestyle and bases to attract pilots, as it seems theres is not much else in the pot to offer!
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Hi Thepirate
Also work in CJ.. Unlike my colleague im quite happy. I am on a 5/3 roster, same as all people who are in the company 1 year or more. Pay is good, come out with more than flybe jet captains and Ba City. Company gives pension and loss of license. I come to work, do my bit and go home.
Im now a CPT on the RJ, do about to 600 to 700 hours a year, away about 2/3 nights a week.
Also work in CJ.. Unlike my colleague im quite happy. I am on a 5/3 roster, same as all people who are in the company 1 year or more. Pay is good, come out with more than flybe jet captains and Ba City. Company gives pension and loss of license. I come to work, do my bit and go home.
Im now a CPT on the RJ, do about to 600 to 700 hours a year, away about 2/3 nights a week.
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Hi flyingmam, the 5:3 roster sounds good and congrats on your command! I take it your based at London city? Do you have any comment on the fatigue issues throwaway mentions, or the fact they can change your base contractually?
Is great to hear your happy at cityjet
Is great to hear your happy at cityjet
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The best advice I can give you if you love flying and don't have a family needing a lot of time at home. Cityjet will suit you but if you want fixed roster with stand by,fixed base, holidays etc think again Find somewhere else.
Flight crew in my opinion are still great, job is secure due massive investment in companies and aircraft. Work conditions vary considerably between bases is why you are getting different answers also captains and first officers are completely different again captains being in very short supply. Paris best,Dublin last of the list but this might change again with AMS opening. Change and the constant pay check are the only certainty with Cityjet so far.
Flight crew in my opinion are still great, job is secure due massive investment in companies and aircraft. Work conditions vary considerably between bases is why you are getting different answers also captains and first officers are completely different again captains being in very short supply. Paris best,Dublin last of the list but this might change again with AMS opening. Change and the constant pay check are the only certainty with Cityjet so far.
Hi, can anyone give me an idea of take home pay for an LCY F/O please. Also is there much in the way of roster stability? Looking a ppjn sector pay/ overnights would boost pay a fair bit, is it accurate?
Cheers
Cheers
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Not everyone is on a 5:3. As you were interested in LCY and AMS base, the UK crew are on a 6:3, the AMS hasn't opened yet.
SO basic salary is around £23k, with allowances on top of that. None of the RHS are doing much flying at the moment, though in time that will change. Budget between £500-£1500 (net) in allowances per month. The AMS base will reduce overnights but noone knows by how much. Be careful paying for an RJ TR - you'll find yourself bonded onto the SSJ anyway.
Flyingfisher is accurate.
SO basic salary is around £23k, with allowances on top of that. None of the RHS are doing much flying at the moment, though in time that will change. Budget between £500-£1500 (net) in allowances per month. The AMS base will reduce overnights but noone knows by how much. Be careful paying for an RJ TR - you'll find yourself bonded onto the SSJ anyway.
Flyingfisher is accurate.
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Hello.
Does some people could give some uptade about CJ now? I know they just opened (or are just about) a base in ORY with CRJ 900 flying for AF, I ve been told, local contract, CRPN and 75K€ basic +25K€ duty.
What about other base ? T/C? Is still the 5on 3 off fix roster running ?
Thank !!
Does some people could give some uptade about CJ now? I know they just opened (or are just about) a base in ORY with CRJ 900 flying for AF, I ve been told, local contract, CRPN and 75K€ basic +25K€ duty.
What about other base ? T/C? Is still the 5on 3 off fix roster running ?
Thank !!
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Looks familiar, but each base has it's own contract - those numbers look familiar in any case.
The agreement with the french has been ripped up and has taken a turn for the worse. Still French labour law still applies, though there has been a multi-year struggle and a number of court cases to convince management that the law apples to them as well. Rumour has it (this being a Rumour Network!) that the union rep who agreed to the changes was representing precisely one person, but I'm not that familiar with the details.
With that said, the vast majority of FD and CC have buggered off to AF or Hop so it affects very few existing crew.
DUB and what remains of LCY are 6:3 for the summer; no idea for CDG or anywhere else. Rosters are never fixed for more than a few months, and then change, though they tend to be variants on 6:3. The AMS base are now converting to CRJ and will be on back to back trips to Scandinavia - or ORY if recruitment doesn't go well. Also, last I heard CJ didn't actually have a contract from AF to actually do the work out of ORY, but were recruiting anyway, so if you join, take note of your mobility clause.
The agreement with the french has been ripped up and has taken a turn for the worse. Still French labour law still applies, though there has been a multi-year struggle and a number of court cases to convince management that the law apples to them as well. Rumour has it (this being a Rumour Network!) that the union rep who agreed to the changes was representing precisely one person, but I'm not that familiar with the details.
With that said, the vast majority of FD and CC have buggered off to AF or Hop so it affects very few existing crew.
DUB and what remains of LCY are 6:3 for the summer; no idea for CDG or anywhere else. Rosters are never fixed for more than a few months, and then change, though they tend to be variants on 6:3. The AMS base are now converting to CRJ and will be on back to back trips to Scandinavia - or ORY if recruitment doesn't go well. Also, last I heard CJ didn't actually have a contract from AF to actually do the work out of ORY, but were recruiting anyway, so if you join, take note of your mobility clause.
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Cityjet Ts&Cs:
When Cityjet bought Cimber 12 months ago, there were approximately 100 pilots employed at the CPH base. Now around 80, and most of the remaining are looking elsewhere. My guess is 60-65 this time next year. Part time is impossible due to lack of pilots, but that just increases the motivation to apply for Norwegian etc.
The worse conditions you offer your employees the more unstable a workforce you get and visa versa. People have a tendency to stay, when employed by a legacy company.
Cityjets strategy is unsustainable due to the fact, that they now have started recruiting low hours with no type rating, and train them with all the costs included. Yet they do nothing to retain the workforce they have.
Let me give you an example: When they employed pilots for the Arlanda base, they hired 20 (young) lowtimer pilots from Finland and gave them the rating, lots of lifus, and as soon as the pilots had passed 1000 hours on the CRJ, they applied for Finnair, and most of them got in. Bye bye Cityjet......
If you wanna join Cityjet, fine by me. I personally consider it like joining Ryanair, but without a usefull typerating, still Cityjet pay for it.
When Cityjet bought Cimber 12 months ago, there were approximately 100 pilots employed at the CPH base. Now around 80, and most of the remaining are looking elsewhere. My guess is 60-65 this time next year. Part time is impossible due to lack of pilots, but that just increases the motivation to apply for Norwegian etc.
The worse conditions you offer your employees the more unstable a workforce you get and visa versa. People have a tendency to stay, when employed by a legacy company.
Cityjets strategy is unsustainable due to the fact, that they now have started recruiting low hours with no type rating, and train them with all the costs included. Yet they do nothing to retain the workforce they have.
Let me give you an example: When they employed pilots for the Arlanda base, they hired 20 (young) lowtimer pilots from Finland and gave them the rating, lots of lifus, and as soon as the pilots had passed 1000 hours on the CRJ, they applied for Finnair, and most of them got in. Bye bye Cityjet......
If you wanna join Cityjet, fine by me. I personally consider it like joining Ryanair, but without a usefull typerating, still Cityjet pay for it.
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What is the outlook for Cityjet in Brussels since they are doing the Lufthansa flights (ex brussels airlines)? Will they keep on doing those?
What does the mobility clause state? Someone can explain?
Grts
What does the mobility clause state? Someone can explain?
Grts
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[Hello.
Does some people could give some uptade about CJ now? I know they just opened (or are just about) a base in ORY with CRJ 900 flying for AF, I ve been told, local contract, CRPN and 75K€ basic +25K€ duty.
What about other base ? T/C? Is still the 5on 3 off fix roster running ?
Thank !! ]
Does some people could give some uptade about CJ now? I know they just opened (or are just about) a base in ORY with CRJ 900 flying for AF, I ve been told, local contract, CRPN and 75K€ basic +25K€ duty.
What about other base ? T/C? Is still the 5on 3 off fix roster running ?
Thank !! ]