Norwegian VS Ryanair
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One less point in favour of Norwegian: they have now restricted the use of free tickets to only commuting pilots. In essence if your home address in the HR database is near your base, no commuting tickets for you.
It does not matter if for example you are dutch, moved your family to say Barcelona but still have relatives (or other kids anyone?) back at home: no free tickets for you. You have to provide an official document to prove your address, only one address allowed.
Stay away. I did a few years in ryan, my seniority here right now gives me some stability but at this point I am sorry to say I would not recommend anyone to join Norwegian: bottom of the seniority and difficult to commute..
Hope it changes soon.
It does not matter if for example you are dutch, moved your family to say Barcelona but still have relatives (or other kids anyone?) back at home: no free tickets for you. You have to provide an official document to prove your address, only one address allowed.
Stay away. I did a few years in ryan, my seniority here right now gives me some stability but at this point I am sorry to say I would not recommend anyone to join Norwegian: bottom of the seniority and difficult to commute..
Hope it changes soon.
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What about the discounted staff and family tickets on NAS and NLH? - A benefit management uses to threaten and bully staff it can withdraw at any time:
“Norwegian shocks union with text message threat”
http://www.thelocal.no/20140507/norw...ith-sms-threat
“The text message threatened that if the strike went ahead it would …….suspend cheap tickets for staff and family members for three years”.
Norwegian and OSM recently distributed a flyer (below) to staff which included the declaration it operates a ZERO TOLERANCE policy regarding threats and bullying.
Does this gross contradiction make Norwegian’s administrators hypocrites or liars?
“Norwegian shocks union with text message threat”
http://www.thelocal.no/20140507/norw...ith-sms-threat
“The text message threatened that if the strike went ahead it would …….suspend cheap tickets for staff and family members for three years”.
Norwegian and OSM recently distributed a flyer (below) to staff which included the declaration it operates a ZERO TOLERANCE policy regarding threats and bullying.
Does this gross contradiction make Norwegian’s administrators hypocrites or liars?
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Another scam, for those who possibly saw Winter in the Caribbean as a good idea
Dear colleagues,
this year’s “opportunity of a lifetime” will be for grabs soon and you will be able to apply for both Caribbean as well as US base options.
The NPG would like to stress the fact that we are all very supportive of any business initiatives that the company undertakes in order to boost expansion and secure quality jobs.
However we are also convinced that none of the above should come to the detriment of nor be used as an opportunity to lower our terms and conditions.
Additionally we firmly believe that the practice of introducing unilateral and non-negotiated contracts and/or appendixes should not take place in the Norwegian group of companies.
In this context the 2016/2017 “opportunity of a lifetime” comes once again in the form of a substantial pay cut and unilateral deterioration of T&C’s currently in place across the Norwegian network.
We therefore ask all colleagues to refrain from committing to any of these opportunities until the NPG unions have reached a fair and mutually beneficial agreement on the T&C’s to be offered to those pilots interested in a real “opportunity of a lifetime” and not just another “opportunity to work for less”.
We will keep you updated on any developments.
Kind Regards,
The NPG
P.S.: please find below feedback from last years’ Caribbean detachment we have received from one of our members:
Caribbean Feedback
Dear all,
All of us from the Caribbean are now settling back into our European bases, so it is time for some
feedback about our experience!
1 * The application process
At the end of June, an article was published on RedNose inviting volunteers to apply for the project. The article promised “wages on an European level” and that “the Company will assist with housing arrangements”.
Towards the beginning of August, the screening process had begun and some of us got a short phone interview with management in Fornebu. Some of us didn’t have a phone interview. On the 24th of August we received an email telling us we had been picked to spend winter in the French Caribbean!
Concerning the terms and conditions, several rumours were heard, some saying we would get a pay increase to help with the cost of life there, and others saying we would lose flight pay and standby compensation.
Towards the end of October, so 1 month before our departure, OSM came to us with a Caribbean Appendix, that lacked details. After many requests for clarification, it turned out that we did indeed get a paycut, as they took away flight pay and standby pay, as well as the phone allowance. Cabin crew were told they would not get any commission on their onboard sales. By then, most of us had already committed to going to the Caribbean, as accommodation and car deposits were paid. Many found this last*minute surprise very disappointing.
2 * Relocation to the Caribbean and Housing
As mentioned above, Norwegian/OSM vowed to help for the search with housing. In fact, they came back to us just two or three weeks before our arrival with just one or two unappealing offers. December to April is the very high season in the islands of Guadeloupe and Martinique. A few weeks before, there is very very little choice left for accommodation. Most of us had already found housing, so
we found Norwegian’s help to be a bit ... unhelpful.
Prices are very high, so the vast majority of those based had to settle for small bungalows (Martinique) or sharing houses (Guadeloupe). Small bungalows in Martinique were 1000 euros per month. A 3*bedroom houses in either island can go from 1500 to 2500 euros per month. A big 6 *bedroom villa with a private pool was 4500 euros per month.
3 * Transport / Healthcare / Schools
The islands have a very small, almost non*existant, public transportation system. A car is absolutely necessary. During the autumn, we received conflicting information from OSM/Norwegian about transportation to and from the airport. Some said we would get a daily pickup, others said we would have to manage by ourselves. In the end, Norwegian paid for 5 rental cars per island (1 per town where crew were staying (4), and another for the Base Chiefs). Crew flying would arrange carpooling. However, it is recommended to have your own car, to be able to move around during your off days. The PTP airport manager helped in arranging a good deal with rental car companies. Hertz came back with the best offer, with cars at 385 euros per month. The offer was valid for both islands, and can probably be arranged for next year too. That is a very good deal, considering the high prices on the island. However, it’s still another monthly bill, and they start to add up.
Healthcare is quite good on the islands, considering that area of the world. Hospitals in Martinique and Guadeloupe are the best in a 1000km radius. However, they will probably not match Scandinavian standards. One can wait a long time, and hospitals look cheap or old. But doctors are good and up to French standards. Schools are open to all European citizens. But we have no feedback to offer. Only one crew member brought his family, but they were too young to go to school.
4 * Operational issues
The roster was variable. On each island, there was 1 aircraft (PTP also had a spare aircraft), performing one flight per day. There were 4 crews per island, so on average we were flying 1 out of every 4 days. That was an average, but some were working twice as much as others, especially among the Cabin crew. Work days were long but quite easy. During turnarounds in the United States, the whole crew had to leave the aircraft, proceed through immigration and customs, and then up through TSA and back to the aircraft. 1h20min was allocated for the turnarounds, which was usually enough * except on busy days in JFK. Concerning the roster, we were only given the minimum 12 days off, with often not more than 3 days off in a row. Many standbys were assigned. Traveling in and out of the islands on off days was doable, but not simple. Many were complaining of lack of consecutive days off, and of “unfair” rostering (some working 10 or 11 days per month, and others only 4).
It was not possible to take any vacation during our assignment in the Caribbean. Vacation days leftover
from 2015 were paid off. There were no overnights, everyone was back on their island at the end of a work day.
5 * Other issues
The islands are very expensive : accommodation, groceries, activities ... prices match those of Scandinavia. However they are really beautiful, and it is easy to enjoy your time there. Weather in ‘winter’ is not too warm * 23° in the morning, 28° in the afternoon * with an occasional tropical rain shower. Weather got very hot and humid in April. There are many mosquitos there, with the diseases that come along. Zika is present on the islands, and OSM has agreed to pay for everyone to get tested upon return to the Continent.
We were a small group on small islands, so as can be expected, a few tensions came up from time to time. After 5 months, most were eager to return to their friends and family. Sharing accommodation, or renting bungalows next to one another, can prove occasionally difficult. When asked at the end if they wanted to return next year, many answered that they probably would not apply again. It was a very interesting experience, most were happy and enjoyed it.
But once was enough.
For those who would like to try it out next year, we can only recommend that you ask for the terms and conditions before committing yourself. And if you are offered the same contract as we had, it will make it difficult for you to live comfortably.
Kind regards,
Dear colleagues,
this year’s “opportunity of a lifetime” will be for grabs soon and you will be able to apply for both Caribbean as well as US base options.
The NPG would like to stress the fact that we are all very supportive of any business initiatives that the company undertakes in order to boost expansion and secure quality jobs.
However we are also convinced that none of the above should come to the detriment of nor be used as an opportunity to lower our terms and conditions.
Additionally we firmly believe that the practice of introducing unilateral and non-negotiated contracts and/or appendixes should not take place in the Norwegian group of companies.
In this context the 2016/2017 “opportunity of a lifetime” comes once again in the form of a substantial pay cut and unilateral deterioration of T&C’s currently in place across the Norwegian network.
We therefore ask all colleagues to refrain from committing to any of these opportunities until the NPG unions have reached a fair and mutually beneficial agreement on the T&C’s to be offered to those pilots interested in a real “opportunity of a lifetime” and not just another “opportunity to work for less”.
We will keep you updated on any developments.
Kind Regards,
The NPG
P.S.: please find below feedback from last years’ Caribbean detachment we have received from one of our members:
Caribbean Feedback
Dear all,
All of us from the Caribbean are now settling back into our European bases, so it is time for some
feedback about our experience!
1 * The application process
At the end of June, an article was published on RedNose inviting volunteers to apply for the project. The article promised “wages on an European level” and that “the Company will assist with housing arrangements”.
Towards the beginning of August, the screening process had begun and some of us got a short phone interview with management in Fornebu. Some of us didn’t have a phone interview. On the 24th of August we received an email telling us we had been picked to spend winter in the French Caribbean!
Concerning the terms and conditions, several rumours were heard, some saying we would get a pay increase to help with the cost of life there, and others saying we would lose flight pay and standby compensation.
Towards the end of October, so 1 month before our departure, OSM came to us with a Caribbean Appendix, that lacked details. After many requests for clarification, it turned out that we did indeed get a paycut, as they took away flight pay and standby pay, as well as the phone allowance. Cabin crew were told they would not get any commission on their onboard sales. By then, most of us had already committed to going to the Caribbean, as accommodation and car deposits were paid. Many found this last*minute surprise very disappointing.
2 * Relocation to the Caribbean and Housing
As mentioned above, Norwegian/OSM vowed to help for the search with housing. In fact, they came back to us just two or three weeks before our arrival with just one or two unappealing offers. December to April is the very high season in the islands of Guadeloupe and Martinique. A few weeks before, there is very very little choice left for accommodation. Most of us had already found housing, so
we found Norwegian’s help to be a bit ... unhelpful.
Prices are very high, so the vast majority of those based had to settle for small bungalows (Martinique) or sharing houses (Guadeloupe). Small bungalows in Martinique were 1000 euros per month. A 3*bedroom houses in either island can go from 1500 to 2500 euros per month. A big 6 *bedroom villa with a private pool was 4500 euros per month.
3 * Transport / Healthcare / Schools
The islands have a very small, almost non*existant, public transportation system. A car is absolutely necessary. During the autumn, we received conflicting information from OSM/Norwegian about transportation to and from the airport. Some said we would get a daily pickup, others said we would have to manage by ourselves. In the end, Norwegian paid for 5 rental cars per island (1 per town where crew were staying (4), and another for the Base Chiefs). Crew flying would arrange carpooling. However, it is recommended to have your own car, to be able to move around during your off days. The PTP airport manager helped in arranging a good deal with rental car companies. Hertz came back with the best offer, with cars at 385 euros per month. The offer was valid for both islands, and can probably be arranged for next year too. That is a very good deal, considering the high prices on the island. However, it’s still another monthly bill, and they start to add up.
Healthcare is quite good on the islands, considering that area of the world. Hospitals in Martinique and Guadeloupe are the best in a 1000km radius. However, they will probably not match Scandinavian standards. One can wait a long time, and hospitals look cheap or old. But doctors are good and up to French standards. Schools are open to all European citizens. But we have no feedback to offer. Only one crew member brought his family, but they were too young to go to school.
4 * Operational issues
The roster was variable. On each island, there was 1 aircraft (PTP also had a spare aircraft), performing one flight per day. There were 4 crews per island, so on average we were flying 1 out of every 4 days. That was an average, but some were working twice as much as others, especially among the Cabin crew. Work days were long but quite easy. During turnarounds in the United States, the whole crew had to leave the aircraft, proceed through immigration and customs, and then up through TSA and back to the aircraft. 1h20min was allocated for the turnarounds, which was usually enough * except on busy days in JFK. Concerning the roster, we were only given the minimum 12 days off, with often not more than 3 days off in a row. Many standbys were assigned. Traveling in and out of the islands on off days was doable, but not simple. Many were complaining of lack of consecutive days off, and of “unfair” rostering (some working 10 or 11 days per month, and others only 4).
It was not possible to take any vacation during our assignment in the Caribbean. Vacation days leftover
from 2015 were paid off. There were no overnights, everyone was back on their island at the end of a work day.
5 * Other issues
The islands are very expensive : accommodation, groceries, activities ... prices match those of Scandinavia. However they are really beautiful, and it is easy to enjoy your time there. Weather in ‘winter’ is not too warm * 23° in the morning, 28° in the afternoon * with an occasional tropical rain shower. Weather got very hot and humid in April. There are many mosquitos there, with the diseases that come along. Zika is present on the islands, and OSM has agreed to pay for everyone to get tested upon return to the Continent.
We were a small group on small islands, so as can be expected, a few tensions came up from time to time. After 5 months, most were eager to return to their friends and family. Sharing accommodation, or renting bungalows next to one another, can prove occasionally difficult. When asked at the end if they wanted to return next year, many answered that they probably would not apply again. It was a very interesting experience, most were happy and enjoyed it.
But once was enough.
For those who would like to try it out next year, we can only recommend that you ask for the terms and conditions before committing yourself. And if you are offered the same contract as we had, it will make it difficult for you to live comfortably.
Kind regards,
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....until the NPG unions have reached a fair and mutually beneficial agreement on the T&C’s to be offered
The NPG has yet to realize there are two contracts: 1. OSM and their employee crew member and 2, OSM and Norwegian, to supply the crew.
The respective crew member OSM contract contains the clause “There is no employment relationship between the contractor and the airline” or similar. Therefore, no legally recognized trade union representation with Norwegian may exist. The contract also contains the clause that Norwegian may reassign an operating base.
Norwegian’s US based cabin crew won a National Mediation Board decision that Norwegian is their real employer. The cabin crew recently voted to form a trade union which Norwegian must recognize and negotiate contract terms and conditions:-
http://www.forbes.com/sites/tedreed/.../#68734b365a94
http://www.dagbladet.no/nyheter/norw...nyhet/60394733
The NPG unions should concentrate their efforts on securing a legal decision that Norwegian is the real employer of ALL crew at ALL bases, similar to that obtained by PARAT:-
Pilots and cabin crew won over Norwegian - Norway Today
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Just finished reading this thread and glad I did.
Have an upcoming interview with OSM for DEC 737 with NAS.
Seems RYR is the better choice. Not too keen on being laid off for 6 months with no pay!
Sometimes it does pay to browse pprune.
Reading this thread has put me right off.
I was told you can take an 80% contract after 6 to 12 months of joining NAS which guarantees 16 days off a month etc? Any truth in this or not?
Have an upcoming interview with OSM for DEC 737 with NAS.
Seems RYR is the better choice. Not too keen on being laid off for 6 months with no pay!
Sometimes it does pay to browse pprune.
Reading this thread has put me right off.
I was told you can take an 80% contract after 6 to 12 months of joining NAS which guarantees 16 days off a month etc? Any truth in this or not?
Last edited by CapedVulture; 20th Aug 2016 at 10:21.
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It has historically been available, but I am not sure if that applies to all Bases nor indeed all year round. Winter would be no problem I would assume, and at bases like LPA/TFS where you only fly 10 -12 days max a month (the days being so long ) NAS are delighted if you take it, as they get the same productivity (save a few SBY's ) as they have on 100% whilst saving 20% of your salary.
Beware though, 80% paying Spanish tax only works out around €5000/mth, if I had stayed I would have gone back to the circa €7000 on 100%.
It pains me to recommend FR over the Red bunch, but the way things have gone these last 3 years or so I have no qualms about doing so (particularly if you can get a base that suits you, which seems to be back on the agenda to get people in the door)
In short, no base stability, no guarantee you won't spend a Winter at home earning nowt, and constant deterioration in even simple stuff like SBY tickets to go home for commuters. . . NAS via NAI/OSM are really losing the plot . . . as you have wisely gleaned from all the invective published above.
Beware though, 80% paying Spanish tax only works out around €5000/mth, if I had stayed I would have gone back to the circa €7000 on 100%.
It pains me to recommend FR over the Red bunch, but the way things have gone these last 3 years or so I have no qualms about doing so (particularly if you can get a base that suits you, which seems to be back on the agenda to get people in the door)
In short, no base stability, no guarantee you won't spend a Winter at home earning nowt, and constant deterioration in even simple stuff like SBY tickets to go home for commuters. . . NAS via NAI/OSM are really losing the plot . . . as you have wisely gleaned from all the invective published above.
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Thanks for the input PlayStation.
As NAS are now desperate though, wouldn't you think they will have to change their approach. Ryan has suffered crew shortage in the past and have seemed to have learnt something? NAS have lost people's confidence and will surely need to change something if they want to expand?
Can you shed light on what type roster I would expect on 100%? Is it 5on 4 off and what are the current bases? Thanks
As NAS are now desperate though, wouldn't you think they will have to change their approach. Ryan has suffered crew shortage in the past and have seemed to have learnt something? NAS have lost people's confidence and will surely need to change something if they want to expand?
Can you shed light on what type roster I would expect on 100%? Is it 5on 4 off and what are the current bases? Thanks
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current bases are Helsinki, Gatwick, Madrid, Barcelona, Malaga, Alicante, Tenerife, Las Palmas, Palma de Mallorca, Rome-Fiumicino. There is no fixed roster, all you will be guaranteed is 12 days off a month.
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"As NAS are now desperate though, wouldn't you think they will have to change their approach."
The Ostrich syndrome appears to be in full effect, and NAI are trying to recreate Ryanair of yore, just as Ryanair are having to let go of their previous culture (well to a little extent at least )
None so blind as those who will not see . . . . . you would have thought the expense of all the wet leases , flight cancellations etc would have made it abundantly clear what was needed, but no. . . . the Red Nosed ostrich is still digging with its crimson beak. . . .
The Ostrich syndrome appears to be in full effect, and NAI are trying to recreate Ryanair of yore, just as Ryanair are having to let go of their previous culture (well to a little extent at least )
None so blind as those who will not see . . . . . you would have thought the expense of all the wet leases , flight cancellations etc would have made it abundantly clear what was needed, but no. . . . the Red Nosed ostrich is still digging with its crimson beak. . . .
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I know a couple of new cadets all who seem to be on a 5 on , 4 off . Not defending anyone or any organisation , just wanted to relay my information which is coming from 1st hand information
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speed alive rotate
Being Cadets they will be doing their line training in "K Area (I.E a Scandi base, OSL/ARN/CPH/ probably ) & they do have a fixed roster pattern. But only them.
MichaelOLearyGenius. . . . that was indeed Genius !
Being Cadets they will be doing their line training in "K Area (I.E a Scandi base, OSL/ARN/CPH/ probably ) & they do have a fixed roster pattern. But only them.
MichaelOLearyGenius. . . . that was indeed Genius !
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captplaystation
You are absolutely correct. After their line training they are off to - Gatwick , Alicante ,Madrid , Malage etc so not sure what they will be working there.
So you would have a much better ability to answer what roster they would be on when they move. Also alot of them are very aware of what has gone on with the "winter break" over the last few years and are being reassured with all the new aircraft arriving and the shortage of pilots that this wont be happening , although I think a few of them realise they could be swapped between bases during certain parts of the year.
I also think a few have the 500 hours on their mind and a cv to the blue and yellow team , because there seems to be a definite shift to try get their pilots as close to their preferred base , if not their actual base of choice. Complete U turn it would seem on the strategy of old. Good to hear though.
Again please note I am only stating points , and am not here to defend anyone etc.
You are absolutely correct. After their line training they are off to - Gatwick , Alicante ,Madrid , Malage etc so not sure what they will be working there.
So you would have a much better ability to answer what roster they would be on when they move. Also alot of them are very aware of what has gone on with the "winter break" over the last few years and are being reassured with all the new aircraft arriving and the shortage of pilots that this wont be happening , although I think a few of them realise they could be swapped between bases during certain parts of the year.
I also think a few have the 500 hours on their mind and a cv to the blue and yellow team , because there seems to be a definite shift to try get their pilots as close to their preferred base , if not their actual base of choice. Complete U turn it would seem on the strategy of old. Good to hear though.
Again please note I am only stating points , and am not here to defend anyone etc.
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The roster (in my couple of years ago ) experience was OK in ALC/AGP/ LPA ( & by "association TFS ) . . . but I am led to believe it deteriorated markedly when NAI took over from Fornebu in rostering duties, & the emphasis changed from "what can we get whilst making your life agreeable" to simply "what can we get"
LGW to the best of my knowledge was always cr@p (particularly for Commuters & a lot did commute to points North in the UK ) FCO/MAD no idea, BCN always had shorter days but lots of them, not so easy to commute.
It is an "issue", but (IMHO ) far from being the biggest one. . . .
LGW to the best of my knowledge was always cr@p (particularly for Commuters & a lot did commute to points North in the UK ) FCO/MAD no idea, BCN always had shorter days but lots of them, not so easy to commute.
It is an "issue", but (IMHO ) far from being the biggest one. . . .
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Great information thank you captplaystation .
And of course they know by recruiting us low hour cadets who are desperate for them golden hours they know they can get away with it.
However I wonder in a year or two when the exodus is massive once said cadets have reached their hours will they too suffer the same regrets as the blue and yellow team , by the huge exodus of experienced crew. By simply not treating their crews with any respect.
Surely they can see what happened at the blue and yellow team and are simply making the same mistakes.....seems madness!!
And of course they know by recruiting us low hour cadets who are desperate for them golden hours they know they can get away with it.
However I wonder in a year or two when the exodus is massive once said cadets have reached their hours will they too suffer the same regrets as the blue and yellow team , by the huge exodus of experienced crew. By simply not treating their crews with any respect.
Surely they can see what happened at the blue and yellow team and are simply making the same mistakes.....seems madness!!
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@speed_alive_rotate: what do you think happened at the Irish loco? Do you think they give you a free bottle of water for those 12 hour duties? Do you think they arrange a transport to the airport when they send you out of base?
Just because they moved some people to their preferred bases, that doesn't mean they have changed.
And no, nothing will change, because when the low hour cadets get them golden hours, there will be others waiting in line to do the same.
Just because they moved some people to their preferred bases, that doesn't mean they have changed.
And no, nothing will change, because when the low hour cadets get them golden hours, there will be others waiting in line to do the same.