useless Balpa
As I understand things in the UK the medics have major control over the supply of chain - via the Colleges, to a single organisation ( the NHS)something BALPA doesn't have, and The RMT has the monopoly on the supply of labour to the London Underground. in both cases the IR situation is very different to ours where we have a range of pilot groups with their own industrial agreements with a multitude of companies.
The rot started in 1999, with JAR. Perhaps you should all be asking yourselves who exactly was responsible for that?
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From personal experience of needing BALPA to support me, they proved that they are the most useless, unconvincing, non-pilot supporting, airline management ass kissing pr*cks I have ever had the pleasure of dealing with. Thank god I stopped paying them a long time ago.
Chuck your £60 a month into a high interest account and pay for a solicitor if you ever need it.
Chuck your £60 a month into a high interest account and pay for a solicitor if you ever need it.
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Or http://ALPL.com for £17 a month flat rate rank irrelevant. ! I know people who have used the service and the legal representation has been brilliant, especially the no assessing if your case is financially worth supporting because the costs would not be cost effective to the organisation to recover the legal breach, despite paying years of subs. I was a BALPA member and unfortunately felt I had to leave as I believe the association is trapped in the 70's/80's, I support my local CC they are the ones that do all the work, they work hard, but wish there was a way I could demonstrate this without actually supporting the organisation BALPA, I do not agree with several of their policies and practices, they could do with being catapulted into the 21st century in my personal opinion. I pay the difference between my ALPL subs and what would be Balpa subs to charity, so it's not about money.
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I doubt there is any organisation that we might join where we would agree with 100% of the policies or actions of that organisation. Political parties are a prime example of this, we may agree with their stance on the economy but not on Europe, for example. So what do you do if you don't agree? Xollob decided he wanted to leave BALPA, good for him (apologies if you are a lady xollob) but others may decide to stay and try to effect change from within, good for them.
However, it is sad to see a "colleague" being such a coward; creating an Internet name and anonymously coming on a public forum to rant about BALPA, shame on you.
However, it is sad to see a "colleague" being such a coward; creating an Internet name and anonymously coming on a public forum to rant about BALPA, shame on you.
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If you can find the terms and conditions from early and late 2003, you'll see how the BALPA CC at EZY sold out before. Notably the £14k gross pay cut to FOs, the loss of two weeks leave, the new £1100 deductions for crew food (the amount of which delivered was reduced by about 50% at the same time), with the CC being promoted to TREs about a month after ratifying the deal without a membership ballot and a 25% payrise for all company TREs another month or so later. Says it all.
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Not wanting to cause any distress,
But if you are concerned about your Union now (take a few minutes out to think long and hard about how their power has been diluted since the mid 80s before having a negative pop at your CC) - it may have passed you by, that your govt at its earliest opportunity as a single acting force has very quickly pushed more brilliant stuff through to further weaken the position of the Unions and the working man
With a weakened Union position, and the oncoming EASA FTL changes, you dont need absolute clarity in your crystal ball to anticipate that unfortunately life may not be so rosy for more people than expected.
BAPLA rank and file not cc
But if you are concerned about your Union now (take a few minutes out to think long and hard about how their power has been diluted since the mid 80s before having a negative pop at your CC) - it may have passed you by, that your govt at its earliest opportunity as a single acting force has very quickly pushed more brilliant stuff through to further weaken the position of the Unions and the working man
With a weakened Union position, and the oncoming EASA FTL changes, you dont need absolute clarity in your crystal ball to anticipate that unfortunately life may not be so rosy for more people than expected.
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Boycott, that is party political rubbish. The reality is that some unions are far too powerful and far to unreasonable, and that is what needed to be curbed. But BALPA was not in that category; it never used what power it had because too many CCs cosied up to their management. That is why it has been kicked out of so many airlines. The CCs (of any union) need to be utterly incorruptible people, and that is often not the case.
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Feel free to extend the points made in my Post, firstly outside your own company, then outside the industry. Indeed across all industries in the uk
Reread my post and have a think another about it. I do not dispute your points, not at all, undoubtedly your own points also contribute to the slide in your own company. It all sounds a bit low class to me. But that is the nature in some companies these days unfortunately
About time to stop looking out for just your own little gang.
Divide and conquer. It may be a party political rubbish to one man, but to another it is not exactly a difficult concept to comprehend, but it is exactly why we are all on a downward spiral.
The overall and general direction isnt a good one. If your own company has issues as you stated then that is even worse. And that definately is down to the lack of Union strength and changes to employment laws etc etc .... That started in the mid 80s. Unless that is party political rubbish. But thats as I recall it.
Reread my post and have a think another about it. I do not dispute your points, not at all, undoubtedly your own points also contribute to the slide in your own company. It all sounds a bit low class to me. But that is the nature in some companies these days unfortunately
About time to stop looking out for just your own little gang.
Divide and conquer. It may be a party political rubbish to one man, but to another it is not exactly a difficult concept to comprehend, but it is exactly why we are all on a downward spiral.
The overall and general direction isnt a good one. If your own company has issues as you stated then that is even worse. And that definately is down to the lack of Union strength and changes to employment laws etc etc .... That started in the mid 80s. Unless that is party political rubbish. But thats as I recall it.
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Slight thread creep; I apologise.
It is very sad to hear that anything other than excellence as an instructor/examiner is a route to those positions. In 1980's it was the case that BALPA CC members found their way into management. Poacher turned game-keeper comes to mind. It was also the case then that TRI's & TRE's were called 'management pilots'. I found that offensive and total BS. A good manager is one animal; a good trainer is another. They are rarely the same, but I have known a few, and they were excellent at both. The training dept should be the back bone of standards, philosophy & etiquette. It should have nothing to do with contracts and T's & C's etc. It should be about excellence.
In the 80's it was the case, in UK, that a TRI/TRE position was seen as a stepping stone to higher things. As a result there were some piss poor trainers; more like trappers. I'd thought that in 90's the industry had moved on from that. Being a TRI/TRE is not about an easy pay rise, it is about raising the standards and maintaining them. Teaching is a vocation not a promotion in rank and a pay rise.
Being a hard-nosed savvy CC member prepared to tell BS mangers where to park it is rarely what a calm relaxed trainer is interested in; but that is what a CC member needs to be.
Being a 'management pilot' is a conflict of interest.
It is very sad to hear that anything other than excellence as an instructor/examiner is a route to those positions. In 1980's it was the case that BALPA CC members found their way into management. Poacher turned game-keeper comes to mind. It was also the case then that TRI's & TRE's were called 'management pilots'. I found that offensive and total BS. A good manager is one animal; a good trainer is another. They are rarely the same, but I have known a few, and they were excellent at both. The training dept should be the back bone of standards, philosophy & etiquette. It should have nothing to do with contracts and T's & C's etc. It should be about excellence.
In the 80's it was the case, in UK, that a TRI/TRE position was seen as a stepping stone to higher things. As a result there were some piss poor trainers; more like trappers. I'd thought that in 90's the industry had moved on from that. Being a TRI/TRE is not about an easy pay rise, it is about raising the standards and maintaining them. Teaching is a vocation not a promotion in rank and a pay rise.
Being a hard-nosed savvy CC member prepared to tell BS mangers where to park it is rarely what a calm relaxed trainer is interested in; but that is what a CC member needs to be.
Being a 'management pilot' is a conflict of interest.
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Rat 5, I couldn't agree more. I'm not anti-union, though I find it a shame we need them. However, my experience of BALPA was awful and very expensive, far more than just the subscription. That might not be representative of all BALPA affiliated CCs, but there have been numerous airlines that left them in recent years, so EZY was far from unique.
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Shuffler, I'm not aware of Balpa being kicked out of any airline so perhaps you'd care to expand on that claim. Your reference to easyjet in 2003 has a degree of truth to it however again you have failed to tell the whole story. That particular company council were pretty much run out of town, replaced democratically by a new CC that has evolved progressively. Democracy can be painful but it must be respected.
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As I understand it, BALPA were replaced in Virgin, Astreus and a few others. The FlyBe and BMI members were pretty peeved at BALPA's shoddy efforts when things went TU. I didn't pay a great deal of attention, but then again, nor did you.
The point is that BALPA are expensive and often useless - the members are at the mercy/whim of the CC, some of who may be honest, but some who certainly aren't. As for my comments about 2003, they are 100% factually correct. The one FO on the council was immediately promoted and that the others, all captains, were made TREs. Then the TRE pay rise came. That was all paid for out of all FOs having their bonus scheme scrapped and flight pay cut, as I said for a 5yr FO to the tune of £14kpa. There wasn't even an attempt to hide it, so shameless was the corruption. I know that the council has changed since then, and the three worst have long since left, but in 2014, meeting the BALPA rep at the RPG meeting highlighted how afraid and pathetic BALPA is - they refused to publicly back the RPG at the RPG's request because of fear of a run in with O'Leary. What the hell is the point of a union which is so scared of the management of an airline that has so many of their members? IALPA, on the other hand, seem willing to put up much more of a fight, and it appears the Norwegian unions will too. The French - well, that's were things go too far.
The point is that BALPA are expensive and often useless - the members are at the mercy/whim of the CC, some of who may be honest, but some who certainly aren't. As for my comments about 2003, they are 100% factually correct. The one FO on the council was immediately promoted and that the others, all captains, were made TREs. Then the TRE pay rise came. That was all paid for out of all FOs having their bonus scheme scrapped and flight pay cut, as I said for a 5yr FO to the tune of £14kpa. There wasn't even an attempt to hide it, so shameless was the corruption. I know that the council has changed since then, and the three worst have long since left, but in 2014, meeting the BALPA rep at the RPG meeting highlighted how afraid and pathetic BALPA is - they refused to publicly back the RPG at the RPG's request because of fear of a run in with O'Leary. What the hell is the point of a union which is so scared of the management of an airline that has so many of their members? IALPA, on the other hand, seem willing to put up much more of a fight, and it appears the Norwegian unions will too. The French - well, that's were things go too far.
Last edited by Aluminium shuffler; 27th Oct 2015 at 13:01.
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AFAIK Balpa has never been through de-recognition process in any company it represents so far. As for the RPG, much as we should all admire the cause it is actual members they need -not third party cash flow. Balpa tried (and failed) to achieve recognition in RYR twice. I'd suggest it has some experience I that area. If Ialpa were any better at it they would've succeeded themselves. In easyJet you witnessed a renegade CC pulling a stunt in 2003. They were overthrown democratically and replaced with new reps who made significant achievements over the subsequent years. You might want to move on from that. The system worked. It righted a wrong and the new regime went on to made significant progress.
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"If you can find the terms and conditions from early and late 2003, you'll see how the BALPA CC at EZY sold out before. Notably the £14k gross pay cut to FOs, the loss of two weeks leave, the new £1100 deductions for crew food (the amount of which delivered was reduced by about 50% at the same time."
That crew food is subsidized by flight deck has been ignored by both the Company and the CC at all subsequent discussions. This £1100 pay raid is thought of as a myth by most Crewmembers in easy.
BALPA lost my money as a result.
That crew food is subsidized by flight deck has been ignored by both the Company and the CC at all subsequent discussions. This £1100 pay raid is thought of as a myth by most Crewmembers in easy.
BALPA lost my money as a result.
Don't we just love threads about BALPA?!!
Rarely are they objective, and usually descend into chucking mud at each other.
The managers at these airlines must delight in these sort of antics: pilots against pilots.
What is sad is the degree of 'I'm alright jack' that is the essence of why unions are sometimes totally ineffectual. We are supposed to stand together. The truth is that (in the UK) we rarely do. It is always something that happens to that other poor sod - so why should I care ......... until it happens to you.
I applaud the OP for being brave enough to speak out on the open forum, without the pro-BALPA scrutiny of the private easyJet forum. He is not ranting, as has been suggested, he is stating his opinion.
As for CC members not responding to emails, then that, if true, is completely disgraceful.
Do they similarly ignore emails from the company? I very much doubt it.
Love or hate BALPA, they need to change. It is important to have effective dialogue with the employers, but they need to spend more time listening to the members. BALPA IS the membership.
Footnote: late pay deal AGAIN this year: Fact.
F&B
Rarely are they objective, and usually descend into chucking mud at each other.
The managers at these airlines must delight in these sort of antics: pilots against pilots.
What is sad is the degree of 'I'm alright jack' that is the essence of why unions are sometimes totally ineffectual. We are supposed to stand together. The truth is that (in the UK) we rarely do. It is always something that happens to that other poor sod - so why should I care ......... until it happens to you.
I applaud the OP for being brave enough to speak out on the open forum, without the pro-BALPA scrutiny of the private easyJet forum. He is not ranting, as has been suggested, he is stating his opinion.
As for CC members not responding to emails, then that, if true, is completely disgraceful.
Do they similarly ignore emails from the company? I very much doubt it.
Love or hate BALPA, they need to change. It is important to have effective dialogue with the employers, but they need to spend more time listening to the members. BALPA IS the membership.
Footnote: late pay deal AGAIN this year: Fact.
F&B
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The main problem is that "BALPA" and the "CC" are only as strong as the support they get from the members. In any airline, how many pilots would take industrial action over a pay deal? Would you go on strike if offered only 2% rise? Would you go on strike if the company said their final offer was a reduction in new pilots pay, to save the pay of the existing pilots? Many pilots would not go on strike for this. Often the issues that the companies stir up only affect part of the pilot population. The company ultimately can do what they like. If the pilots go to a vote, in most cases, around 50% can't be bothered as it doesn't make much difference to them, about 30% probably don't even vote, and the rest sre probably those who have strong views. Ultimately, what company CC is going to try and call a vote when only 20% of the workforce are even likely to consider going on strike?
It takes something major to really rile pilots and make them strong enough to strike.
What else can the CC do to "make" the company change its mind over terms and conditions?
It is a bit like fatigue reporting though isn't it? It is a legal requirement for pilots to submit an MOR if they fall asleep on the flight deck, even a micro sleep. Last year the CAA received 3 reports.
BALPA is only as good as its members.
It takes something major to really rile pilots and make them strong enough to strike.
What else can the CC do to "make" the company change its mind over terms and conditions?
It is a bit like fatigue reporting though isn't it? It is a legal requirement for pilots to submit an MOR if they fall asleep on the flight deck, even a micro sleep. Last year the CAA received 3 reports.
BALPA is only as good as its members.
