WTF -
Thread Starter
Join Date: Dec 1999
Location: North by North West
Posts: 141
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
WTF -
I'm struggling to understand the recruitment policies 'as advertised' for experienced B737NG FOs? I've got 5000hrs total and 2400 on B733/8 yet am deemed too old at 55 for an FO job for the majority of 'hungry' employers at the moment.
I could, at a push, see the old Training Risk argument being rolled out for non-type-rated positions ... but when you've got time in the seat and life experience???
As I said WTF!
Where is taking over 50s?
Even Ryanair don't seem interested...and if you check beyond the initial veneer of the job adverts one will find age limits for a lot of the current employers.
I could, at a push, see the old Training Risk argument being rolled out for non-type-rated positions ... but when you've got time in the seat and life experience???
As I said WTF!
Where is taking over 50s?
Even Ryanair don't seem interested...and if you check beyond the initial veneer of the job adverts one will find age limits for a lot of the current employers.
"Fresh meat" is much more likely to do as its told, & is far more impressionable and compliant. As people get older they become much more difficult to scare and intimidate. Mainstream employers don't like that. Yes, "ageism" is illegal in the workplace but the workplace is riddled with all kinds of prejudices, some of which are against the law too! Good luck making a case against any of them. Have you really not worked it all out at age 55?
Nemo Me Impune Lacessit
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Derbyshire, England.
Posts: 4,091
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Have you thought about the Executive jet market? Not up to date myself but they used not to mind an older person, often they don't use an FO as such but fly two captains. Have a look in the forum here on PPRuNe, Biz Jets etc., ask a question or two perhaps? Just a thought.
I feel your pain aces low. If you were in Australia, I'd suggest heading to one of the aeromedical operators, who still seem to value flying, and life, experience.
Mach E Avellie summed things up pretty well in the Jetgo Blacklist thread.
http://www.pprune.org/pacific-genera...blacklist.html
Mach E Avellie summed things up pretty well in the Jetgo Blacklist thread.
Considering that most operators require pilots to renew medicals in their own time, and conduct at least two checks per year on all pilots, the extra time and cost to the company for us silly old buggers to maintain a licence is three eighths of five eighths.
The only real issue is that certain international flights can't be done by over 65s. Therefore it is quite reasonable for an operator with predominately international operations to reject applicants nearing that age cutoff. They can even say so without fearing any age discrimination proceedings.
What really bothers some managements is that most of us are a bit too independent and street-wise to tolerate bull****.
The only real issue is that certain international flights can't be done by over 65s. Therefore it is quite reasonable for an operator with predominately international operations to reject applicants nearing that age cutoff. They can even say so without fearing any age discrimination proceedings.
What really bothers some managements is that most of us are a bit too independent and street-wise to tolerate bull****.
http://www.pprune.org/pacific-genera...blacklist.html
Thread Starter
Join Date: Dec 1999
Location: North by North West
Posts: 141
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Can travel
[QUOTE=pithblot;9125812]I feel your pain aces low. If you were in Australia, I'd suggest heading to one of the aeromedical operators, who still seem to value flying, and life, experience.
Mach E Avellie summed things up pretty well in the Jetgo Blacklist thread.
Ideally I'd like to use the type rating and experience I've got. No one wants to pay for a new type rating -especially for a limited career run.
I do wonder if CRM is one of the hidden Factors....might be difficult having an older guy in the right seat in some cultures. But in Europe?
Thanks for your comments
Mach E Avellie summed things up pretty well in the Jetgo Blacklist thread.
Ideally I'd like to use the type rating and experience I've got. No one wants to pay for a new type rating -especially for a limited career run.
I do wonder if CRM is one of the hidden Factors....might be difficult having an older guy in the right seat in some cultures. But in Europe?
Thanks for your comments
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Home soon
Posts: 0
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Aces low,
I hope that you are not restricting your options based on assumptions.
Your life experience should remind you that assumption, especially in our line of work,is the first mistake.
Good luck.
I do wonder if CRM is one of the hidden Factors....might be difficult having an older guy in the right seat in some cultures. But in Europe?
Your life experience should remind you that assumption, especially in our line of work,is the first mistake.
Good luck.
Thread Starter
Join Date: Dec 1999
Location: North by North West
Posts: 141
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I've applied (where possible) without favour or discrimination but the compliment has not been returned. I'm clutching at straws with the CRM 'assumption/theory' as I can't see why experience wouldn't be an asset!
Thread Starter
Join Date: Dec 1999
Location: North by North West
Posts: 141
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Because the pilot "market" is a completely dysfunctional one where all the norms of desirability have been turned upside down and greedy executives (with the help of their quisling regulators - 200 hrs/MPL etc) are able to justify it on cost and "competitiveness".
Experience is apparently only of benefit to an airline now if it directly and up front saves them money (eg type rated). Anything else above "good enough" is not deemed worthy of a premium. Hence the current fad for selection processes which artificially set the bar at astronaut level but are designed to initially screen out anyone over 40 who obviously won't have the reflexes and speed of thought of a 25yo, despite perhaps operating safely in an airliner every day and passing all their recurrents and generally doing the bloody job well.
Sorry I haven't added anything or helped you at all have I, just needed to get that out!!
Experience is apparently only of benefit to an airline now if it directly and up front saves them money (eg type rated). Anything else above "good enough" is not deemed worthy of a premium. Hence the current fad for selection processes which artificially set the bar at astronaut level but are designed to initially screen out anyone over 40 who obviously won't have the reflexes and speed of thought of a 25yo, despite perhaps operating safely in an airliner every day and passing all their recurrents and generally doing the bloody job well.
Sorry I haven't added anything or helped you at all have I, just needed to get that out!!
Thread Starter
Join Date: Dec 1999
Location: North by North West
Posts: 141
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Thanks. I've tried Air Contractors. I'd ideally like to use my experience on the B737 but maybe I'm running out of options?
Join Date: Nov 1999
Location: West Sussex, UK
Posts: 1,546
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I wouldn't be surprised if you weren't able to ask to return, that is unless you burned your bridge.
Join Date: Nov 2012
Location: Planet Claire
Posts: 581
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Good luck with finding a position that suits, but if you can't get one then consider contracting.
You'll have twice the fun and make twice the money.
You will stop paying money to HMRC, which is very easy to get used to.
I'd ring Parc aviation, or Rishworth for starters.
You'll have twice the fun and make twice the money.
You will stop paying money to HMRC, which is very easy to get used to.
I'd ring Parc aviation, or Rishworth for starters.
Thread Starter
Join Date: Dec 1999
Location: North by North West
Posts: 141
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
In a nutshell - this is where I came in. Most of the contracting jobs for FOs are age limited...typically between 45-50. Only Qatar goes to 55 openly. So as far as the 'usual suspects' in China, Korea, Indonesia, Turkey etc are concerned I'm too old.
Maybe a genuine pilot shortage might change this but at the moment supply exceeds demand .
In hindsight, don't move without Command where the age ranges are more flexible
Maybe a genuine pilot shortage might change this but at the moment supply exceeds demand .
In hindsight, don't move without Command where the age ranges are more flexible
Good luck with finding a position that suits, but if you can't get one then consider contracting.
You'll have twice the fun and make twice the money.
You will stop paying money to HMRC, which is very easy to get used to.
I'd ring Parc aviation, or Rishworth for starters.
You'll have twice the fun and make twice the money.
You will stop paying money to HMRC, which is very easy to get used to.
I'd ring Parc aviation, or Rishworth for starters.
Moderator
I am a former employee of Jet 2 (when they were Channel Express) and know the situation there quirte well. At the risk of being a party-pooper here, allow me to present an alternative perspective. The question that any recruitment team is going to ask when presented with a 55 year-old FO, is why is he/she not a captain? Many people at that stage in their careers are senior TREs and therefore to be still an FO is going to raise alarm bells in any recruiter's mind. i accept that we have unwisely ceased to look at experience when it comes to recruitment, and no one laments that more than me. However, hours alone are not a guarantee of quality. The inate personal skills of the individual are extremely important and no one wants to soak up someone else's problems. The other question to be asked in this case is why did a current FO walk out of Jet 2 with no job to go to. Once again, any recruiter will take one look at that and in most cases steer well clear. In a nutshell, if I were recruiting and decided to look at someone in the stuation described, I would want a long, hard look at the individual's training and employment record as there are, at first glance, some oddities here. It is possible that the individual involved here is a 'late entrant' into flying, but sadly again statistics do not favour such candidates in terms of future success. I am sorry to be so stark and negative here, but I am only saying what is almost certainly being said behind closed doors. Therefore, to have any chance of further employment as a pilot, aces low needs to have a very good and well-presented case that explains those issues very clearly to an employer, as I can promise him that is what they are thinking. If there are credible answers to the questions of experience not really matching up to age, walking out of a perfectly good employer with no job to go to and no command time at age 55 , then the way forward is to find someone in a target airline who will present the details of your case to the Chief Pilot personally. Without that personal intervention I unfortunately see signficant diffficulties ahead in terms of your future employability as a pilot.
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: Planet Moo Moo
Posts: 1,279
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
The question that any recruitment team is going to ask when presented with a 55 year-old FO, is why is he/she not a captain?
Sometimes lifestyle and personal choice has a bearing.