Norwegian core jumping the seniority list in NLH
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Norwegian core jumping the seniority list in NLH
I heard from a Norwegian core captain that he will wait a year to join NHL because he has been told he can bring his seniority with him anyway and then jump in front of everybody else when bidding for upgrade and the base he wants (he has been in core for quite some time). Can anyone confirm this??
I must say it sounds almost too amazing to be true. The discouraging effect on everybody (except for the few core pilots exploiting this of course) would be devastating to the stability of operation. Sound very risky just to get rid of expensive captains on a volunteer basis.
Anyone?
I must say it sounds almost too amazing to be true. The discouraging effect on everybody (except for the few core pilots exploiting this of course) would be devastating to the stability of operation. Sound very risky just to get rid of expensive captains on a volunteer basis.
Anyone?
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Not sure if it is true but the core short haul pilot obtained a common seniority list across all norwegian when they strike early this year.
I suppose the common seniority list include also the long haul but not certain.
I suppose the common seniority list include also the long haul but not certain.
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I have heard, when you join Norwegian you enter onto the group seniority list, that is all pilots as per the deal agreed by the last Union negotiations.
It includes long haul pilots, core pilots and euro pilots.
But for long haul they have a seperste seniority list based on date of joining long haul, and from that list they work out your seniority for command etc.... Technically the core pilot would be better off joining now as he will be a year closer to upgrade.
Again this is what a mate in NLH has told me, maybe someone can confirm it.
It includes long haul pilots, core pilots and euro pilots.
But for long haul they have a seperste seniority list based on date of joining long haul, and from that list they work out your seniority for command etc.... Technically the core pilot would be better off joining now as he will be a year closer to upgrade.
Again this is what a mate in NLH has told me, maybe someone can confirm it.
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A deal was struck as part of the post-strike agreement, about a common seniority list within Europe, containing both the 787 and 737 operation, irrespective of agency or daughter-company employed. So there will be no "skipping in the queue" - the longer you have been with the company (again, irrespective of equipment, base or employment agency), you can bid for positions according to you seniority. Some caveats apply, such as no-pushout-principle, seat lock, equipment lock and base lock may apply after a successful bid.
In my eyes this is the only fair system. It likewise offers 787 crew the chance to apply for the 737 operation if they so wish (equipment lock may apply initially). And again, there is no pushout, so this only applies when you and the other guy both want and both are qualified for the same position.
In my eyes this is the only fair system. It likewise offers 787 crew the chance to apply for the 737 operation if they so wish (equipment lock may apply initially). And again, there is no pushout, so this only applies when you and the other guy both want and both are qualified for the same position.
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You poor, naïve OSM and Rishworth souls. When will you ever believe me:
You are employed by an agency/service provider and 'rented' from your employer by the Norwegian Airline Group, similar to cleaning staff.
As a rented pilot you have no entitlement to seniority nor other labor law entitlements with Norwegian whatsoever.
Forget about any "deals" being struck, check your legally binding contract of employment with OSM or Rishworth. Alternatively, check your Norwegian Employee Handbook - unfortunately you don't have one, you are not an employee of Norwegian.
As a rented pilot your service may be terminated by Norwegian at any time without recourse. Irrespective of the time you have been flying for Norwegian. Two years, two months or two weeks, Norwegian simply contacts OSM or Rishworth and informs them your particular services are no longer required. OSM or Rishworth then removes you from their Norwegian contract and may, or may not, find you alternative work.
This is the difference between being a rented pilot and a pilot in a direct employment relationship with Norwegian - and this is why Kjos does not comply with Article 17 of the EU US Air Transport Agreement (Open Skies).
I remind you once again of the Kjos promise made in his signed letter to the US DoT on June 1st this year:
"It has been and will continue to be our firm policy to offer all pilots and cabin crew employed through agencies the opportunity to transfer their employment to a company in the Norwegian Group at the end of a transitional period"
The Kjos letter, Exhibit 1, can be viewed at the following link: Regulations.gov (ref: DOT-OST-2013-0204-0203, view NAI Motion, pdf attachment).
ca-ching ca-ching........
You are employed by an agency/service provider and 'rented' from your employer by the Norwegian Airline Group, similar to cleaning staff.
As a rented pilot you have no entitlement to seniority nor other labor law entitlements with Norwegian whatsoever.
Forget about any "deals" being struck, check your legally binding contract of employment with OSM or Rishworth. Alternatively, check your Norwegian Employee Handbook - unfortunately you don't have one, you are not an employee of Norwegian.
As a rented pilot your service may be terminated by Norwegian at any time without recourse. Irrespective of the time you have been flying for Norwegian. Two years, two months or two weeks, Norwegian simply contacts OSM or Rishworth and informs them your particular services are no longer required. OSM or Rishworth then removes you from their Norwegian contract and may, or may not, find you alternative work.
This is the difference between being a rented pilot and a pilot in a direct employment relationship with Norwegian - and this is why Kjos does not comply with Article 17 of the EU US Air Transport Agreement (Open Skies).
I remind you once again of the Kjos promise made in his signed letter to the US DoT on June 1st this year:
"It has been and will continue to be our firm policy to offer all pilots and cabin crew employed through agencies the opportunity to transfer their employment to a company in the Norwegian Group at the end of a transitional period"
The Kjos letter, Exhibit 1, can be viewed at the following link: Regulations.gov (ref: DOT-OST-2013-0204-0203, view NAI Motion, pdf attachment).
ca-ching ca-ching........
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Don't believe anything Norwegian tells you.
I can't remember how many promises that have been broken in just the short time I have been here. Lies lies lies
Last winter 8 of us SH captains interviewed for RCA positions. Well, they failed all of us. Yes a 100% fail rate.
When asking for feedback, I was told that my SH personality didn't match that of a LH pilot. Who would known!
Point is, it doesn't matter what seniority you take with you to LH if they don't let you join in the first place.
I can't remember how many promises that have been broken in just the short time I have been here. Lies lies lies
Last winter 8 of us SH captains interviewed for RCA positions. Well, they failed all of us. Yes a 100% fail rate.
When asking for feedback, I was told that my SH personality didn't match that of a LH pilot. Who would known!
Point is, it doesn't matter what seniority you take with you to LH if they don't let you join in the first place.
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The Helsinki based pilots have permanent contracts with Norwegian valid until the end of March, 2016. As such, those pilots have all the labor law entitlements and protections of a direct employment relationship - As opposed to their OSM and Rishworth employed colleagues, rented to Norwegian without those benefits, as described in my post above.
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Airline seniority lists always have been, and always will be a hollow company tool that means absolutely nothing. It doesn't matter a fig if you are employed, self employed, or whatever. Every Part D and Part A manual i have ever read clearly stated that seniority for upgrade was performance dependent. Ok, one could argue the seniority list gives guys an idea when then can have a crack at upgrade or base change, training positions etc. But the permanent direct employed guy chewing the fat for years and messing the sim is less favoured than the razor sharp contractor that sails through.. its a simple fact, airlines pick the guys they want" fairness" is a "fairy tale" . The only tangible use of the seniority list is for pay, why do BA and the legacy carriers have so many " career First Officers"?? A common " seniority list" by Company is meaningless unless everyone on the list is capable of moving around the fleets in terms of qualifications and locations. If a company has 200 737Ng and 3 777 for example the list is wholly meaningless.
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Direct Bondi,
Does that fact not lend credence to Kjus' contention, placed before the DOT, that the OSM employment paradigm is a temporary one that will ultimately be replaced, in the respective countries, by a permanent employment contract that is competitive when benchmarked against other local airline contracts?
I agree with you that the OSM contract paradigm is diabolical and pilots ought to be able to see that, but I'd be surprised if Kjus was blatantly lying to the DOT....
My observation based on what happened at HEL would be that a similar process will take place when the LGW Base (for arguments sake) reaches that age, and that the ultimate employer at that stage will be recognised as Norwegian UK rather than OSM. I cannot see how "Norwegian" UK will ever get its Foreign Air Carrier permit (I believe there would have to be another application if they plan to operate under a UK AOC?) otherwise due to US objections to the perceived un-level playing field.
Quite rightly so.
Does that fact not lend credence to Kjus' contention, placed before the DOT, that the OSM employment paradigm is a temporary one that will ultimately be replaced, in the respective countries, by a permanent employment contract that is competitive when benchmarked against other local airline contracts?
I agree with you that the OSM contract paradigm is diabolical and pilots ought to be able to see that, but I'd be surprised if Kjus was blatantly lying to the DOT....
My observation based on what happened at HEL would be that a similar process will take place when the LGW Base (for arguments sake) reaches that age, and that the ultimate employer at that stage will be recognised as Norwegian UK rather than OSM. I cannot see how "Norwegian" UK will ever get its Foreign Air Carrier permit (I believe there would have to be another application if they plan to operate under a UK AOC?) otherwise due to US objections to the perceived un-level playing field.
Quite rightly so.
