Norwegian - Last 36 pilots not needed during the winter.
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RAT5
Most non Norway/Sweden/Denmark pilots are now employed by OSM Aviation on permanent contracts. All taxes and social security taxation is collected by OSM in accordance with in country local rules and regulations.
These are not temp positions googlebug
We receive holiday, sick pay, we are paid a basic salary + flight duty pay, my year to date gives an annual pay of £110,000.00 but no pension for now. I get my medical renewal costs refunded and staff car parking is paid, i also get monthly mobile phone allowance. Free travel on company flights for commuting including two items of checked baggage + ID staff travel for family/friends, oh i get paid for sim duty and its a rostered working day(s) oh and yes standby is also a working day with 4 hours of duty pay if not called.
Roster disruption is very low 95% of the time, we night stop & get b&b in decent airport hotels, uniform is of course free of charge with a points based system for replacing it twice yearly, this includes flight bag, night stop bag, and cooler bag.
We also get free crew meals........+ We now have BALPA recognition
So for most the crap that gets posted on here bares no relationship to what we see in our daily lives
Apart from my payslip coming from OSM i'm not sure it makes any difference ??
These are not temp positions googlebug
We receive holiday, sick pay, we are paid a basic salary + flight duty pay, my year to date gives an annual pay of £110,000.00 but no pension for now. I get my medical renewal costs refunded and staff car parking is paid, i also get monthly mobile phone allowance. Free travel on company flights for commuting including two items of checked baggage + ID staff travel for family/friends, oh i get paid for sim duty and its a rostered working day(s) oh and yes standby is also a working day with 4 hours of duty pay if not called.
Roster disruption is very low 95% of the time, we night stop & get b&b in decent airport hotels, uniform is of course free of charge with a points based system for replacing it twice yearly, this includes flight bag, night stop bag, and cooler bag.
We also get free crew meals........+ We now have BALPA recognition
So for most the crap that gets posted on here bares no relationship to what we see in our daily lives
Apart from my payslip coming from OSM i'm not sure it makes any difference ??
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LNIDA just a quick question please . Do you get a UK P60 and UK tax code considering your employer is not UK based? I think if the tax and NI are stopped then you should automatically be provided with one, this was an obsticle to getting a mortgage in the past with some of the agency workers as no P60 was issued . Genuine enquiry
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Curious: I googled OSM Aviation Services to try and find out where they are based/registered. Nothing on their website, just a contact form, but no address or telephone numbers. The simple question is: if it is declared that you are employed by OSM, and they are EU based, then you have certain rights. If they are non-EU it asks the question how they can employ people on full-time contracts and base them in EU. Are they making deductions relative to where they are based or the country where the crews are based? With various country bases that could be a weighty administrative burden.
Interesting that they have gone the 'agency employee' route rather than the more dubious construction of some of their competitors. If this is a legitimate construction I wonder how long the other models can survive. There must be a reason why they have chosen this model of employment.
Interesting that they have gone the 'agency employee' route rather than the more dubious construction of some of their competitors. If this is a legitimate construction I wonder how long the other models can survive. There must be a reason why they have chosen this model of employment.
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LNIDA:
"employed by OSM Aviation on permanent contracts" - "These are not temp positions"
Permanent positions with OSM, NOT Norwegian.
The lessee airline, Norwegian, may terminate your services at any time, depending on their contract with the agency, which neither the pilots nor any union are party to.
"We now have BALPA recognition"
You do NOT have BALPA recognition with Norwegian, because Norwegian is not your employer. You may have recognition by your employer agency. Norwegian are NOT obliged to comply nor honor any collective agreement between pilots and their employer agency.
Let me know when Kjos signs any collective agreement involving BALPA or SEPLA.
As I stated - many of you are delusional as to the legalities of your working relationship with Norwegian.
"employed by OSM Aviation on permanent contracts" - "These are not temp positions"
Permanent positions with OSM, NOT Norwegian.
The lessee airline, Norwegian, may terminate your services at any time, depending on their contract with the agency, which neither the pilots nor any union are party to.
"We now have BALPA recognition"
You do NOT have BALPA recognition with Norwegian, because Norwegian is not your employer. You may have recognition by your employer agency. Norwegian are NOT obliged to comply nor honor any collective agreement between pilots and their employer agency.
Let me know when Kjos signs any collective agreement involving BALPA or SEPLA.
As I stated - many of you are delusional as to the legalities of your working relationship with Norwegian.
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The use of an agency in this manner not only relieves the Company of the admin burden of the payroll but also provides a means to ensure that the taxes due are collected and thus avoid the types of problems Ryanair guys had with setting up bogus shell companies to avoid tax. As we know the Ryanair system was slammed by the courts as tax evasion and at least NAS are avoiding such possible events. If NAS wanted to be the employer probably they would need a UK based company NAS UK ltd for instance just as Cathy have CX UK ltd.
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RAT5 & Kirks gusset
OSM Aviation UK is the employer they are based in Crawley. Yes UK notice of coding and UK employer reference number. In the UK the payroll is actually processed by Moore Stephens payroll (outsourcing outsourced !!) the important thing is it is done correctly and we get paid on the 25th, still a few minor hitches but it gets more accurate with each month.
OSM Spain deal with the other Euro bases, tax is more complicated for people who commute between Spain and Denmark in particular, but the bottom line is that the company through its outsourcing to OSM is compliant with national rules and the liability for payment of tax is black and white as opposed to blue & yellow
RAT this is why they have chosen agency employee route.
Mortgage and credit checks have been no problem
When travelling on a commute (known as S2) ticket there is no requirement to travel in uniform and you check in with normal fair paying passengers, not pretending to be on crew manifest going through crew security, it is sub load of course unless positioning duty.
The way i see it is you might earn more at FR and have a fixed roster pattern, but you don't feel embarrassed when telling people who you work for, you don't get the roster excitement that seems to be the Summer norm with Jet2, so all in all not perfect but most are happy
Bondi i respectfully suggest you re read the post or read it properly in the first place! we are NOT employed by Norwegian our contract is not with Norwegian, of course if Norwegian cancel the agreement it can change, but that can equally apply to any employer, just ask the poor sods at Monarch who were employed by Monarch, so again I am not delusional and I know the legality of my employment contract & yes we have union recognition between our employer (OSM) & BALPA
OSM Spain deal with the other Euro bases, tax is more complicated for people who commute between Spain and Denmark in particular, but the bottom line is that the company through its outsourcing to OSM is compliant with national rules and the liability for payment of tax is black and white as opposed to blue & yellow
RAT this is why they have chosen agency employee route.
Mortgage and credit checks have been no problem
When travelling on a commute (known as S2) ticket there is no requirement to travel in uniform and you check in with normal fair paying passengers, not pretending to be on crew manifest going through crew security, it is sub load of course unless positioning duty.
The way i see it is you might earn more at FR and have a fixed roster pattern, but you don't feel embarrassed when telling people who you work for, you don't get the roster excitement that seems to be the Summer norm with Jet2, so all in all not perfect but most are happy
Bondi i respectfully suggest you re read the post or read it properly in the first place! we are NOT employed by Norwegian our contract is not with Norwegian, of course if Norwegian cancel the agreement it can change, but that can equally apply to any employer, just ask the poor sods at Monarch who were employed by Monarch, so again I am not delusional and I know the legality of my employment contract & yes we have union recognition between our employer (OSM) & BALPA
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LNIDA thanks for clarifying that. I hear new Ryanair contracts are with Ryanair UK but that should not be an embarrassment with the "BE NICE " by MOL campaign! Doesn't effect me working for Europe's favourite airline already ! Just thinking of the green grass days ahead and some hobby flying! But not 73 the roster would be too much. 50 percent would suit me just fine ��
Last edited by Kirks gusset; 8th Jul 2015 at 18:32.
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LNIDA.
Please, if you are trying to sell everyone your nice contract with your contract agency, could you at least tell the truth to everyone?
1. Permanent contract: well I guess yes but as mentioned before nothing to do with Norwegian. You are employed with an agency, OSM, and nothing else. Also it is stated that you can get a base change at any time with 2 months notice and as well as unpaid leave for the whole 6 winter months with the same notice. So much for permanent, hey?
2 holiday: again yes like everyone else however dont expect any pay for those days. So again less money when you take them.
3 No pension
4 Sick pay: well, 30 days at 90% basic and then...
5 111.000 pounds for this current year. You are just having a laugh!!
6 Car Park: you forgot to mention that it has just been taken away by your nice OSM agency recently because and like a lot of things too, it is no writren in the contract
7 Sim pay: are you on something that I'd like too. Just read the above
8 Uniforms: I guess I'll give you that one but dont forget that you generous poits system has been severely reduced so dont' expect an bag every year.
9 Standbys: of course they will pay you 4 hours of dutty but that is until you get call to position around Europe because did you forget to mention that positioning is free of charge.
10 Also and not the least this is just from me: according to what it has been happening this summer. Expect to fly away from you asigned base very often and from very expensive countries so make sure you save a little of you massive salary because you wont get any extra nor per diem for night sttoping.
Everything else is ok seriously
Please, if you are trying to sell everyone your nice contract with your contract agency, could you at least tell the truth to everyone?
1. Permanent contract: well I guess yes but as mentioned before nothing to do with Norwegian. You are employed with an agency, OSM, and nothing else. Also it is stated that you can get a base change at any time with 2 months notice and as well as unpaid leave for the whole 6 winter months with the same notice. So much for permanent, hey?
2 holiday: again yes like everyone else however dont expect any pay for those days. So again less money when you take them.
3 No pension
4 Sick pay: well, 30 days at 90% basic and then...
5 111.000 pounds for this current year. You are just having a laugh!!
6 Car Park: you forgot to mention that it has just been taken away by your nice OSM agency recently because and like a lot of things too, it is no writren in the contract
7 Sim pay: are you on something that I'd like too. Just read the above
8 Uniforms: I guess I'll give you that one but dont forget that you generous poits system has been severely reduced so dont' expect an bag every year.
9 Standbys: of course they will pay you 4 hours of dutty but that is until you get call to position around Europe because did you forget to mention that positioning is free of charge.
10 Also and not the least this is just from me: according to what it has been happening this summer. Expect to fly away from you asigned base very often and from very expensive countries so make sure you save a little of you massive salary because you wont get any extra nor per diem for night sttoping.
Everything else is ok seriously
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Jedy
Some people don't want hear it as it is it seems, i'm not trying to sell you or anyone else anything, personally i don't give a fig whether people decide stay/leave/join, makes no difference to me I'm just a line grunt.
I don't know of a single pilot who actually got 6 months unpaid leave, that includes the people who are the subject of this thread, now on 50% for the winter, not ideal i'll grant you
I get paid leave = equal to my basic salary including fixed allowance and phone allowance.
£111,000.00 no laugh thats my YTD earning yes a couple of days off in that
Parking is included, but depends on basing, included in the UK, but not in all the Spanish bases.
Uniform points system has been reduced, but unless you sleep in it and wear it when your out on the pull its plenty to be honest, positioning isn't free of charge, its a working day and you get salary just the same, but no flight duty pay.
Some hotels in Scandinavia, yes not cheap but its B&B i guess your airline buys your beer hahaaa,
Take it or leave and yes you work hard
I don't know of a single pilot who actually got 6 months unpaid leave, that includes the people who are the subject of this thread, now on 50% for the winter, not ideal i'll grant you
I get paid leave = equal to my basic salary including fixed allowance and phone allowance.
£111,000.00 no laugh thats my YTD earning yes a couple of days off in that
Parking is included, but depends on basing, included in the UK, but not in all the Spanish bases.
Uniform points system has been reduced, but unless you sleep in it and wear it when your out on the pull its plenty to be honest, positioning isn't free of charge, its a working day and you get salary just the same, but no flight duty pay.
Some hotels in Scandinavia, yes not cheap but its B&B i guess your airline buys your beer hahaaa,
Take it or leave and yes you work hard
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Some useful information from LNIDA, of curiosity, my Tax year starts 1st Jan most start 6th April. To earn 111K in 6 months is 222K a year! or if we take the 6th April is 444K a year? Not quite right, perhaps an average monthly as shown on the payslip would be of more use.. maybe its " earnings to date" i.e total since employment?
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Guys, forget the salary 'willy waving' contest. Concerning the financials, the Norwegian deal is not the best but it's not the worst either. Norwegian is let down by poor employee relations although many have no issues at all. These issues are clear for all to see from reading these forums - where there is smoke there is fire. If you are thinking of applying, don't be surprised if you find yourself on unpaid leave over the winter or that your base is changed every six months if that base up sizes/downsizes seasonally - a hopeless situation especially if you want to settle somewhere with a family.
As has been mentioned before, Balpa recognition is not directly with Norwegian but with the agency, OSM - and therefore of little value. Recognition from the organ grinder is not going to happen - you are unfortunately left to deal with the monkey. The minute Norwegian decides to change the arrangement don't expect your 'permanent' OSM contract to protect you. As a previous poster wrote, consider this 'permanent' contract as a rolling 3 month contract and you won't be disappointed. Be extremely cautious giving up permanent direct employment with an airline elsewhere for this arrangement at Norwegian.
As has been mentioned before, Balpa recognition is not directly with Norwegian but with the agency, OSM - and therefore of little value. Recognition from the organ grinder is not going to happen - you are unfortunately left to deal with the monkey. The minute Norwegian decides to change the arrangement don't expect your 'permanent' OSM contract to protect you. As a previous poster wrote, consider this 'permanent' contract as a rolling 3 month contract and you won't be disappointed. Be extremely cautious giving up permanent direct employment with an airline elsewhere for this arrangement at Norwegian.
Last edited by LoCo Commotion; 9th Jul 2015 at 12:40.
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Just to be clear the annual salary pro rata YTD is £111,000.00 based on my YTD earnings divided by the number of months worked multiplied by 12 months, hope that clears that one up, sorry if i wasn't clear in my previous post
Loco outside of perhaps BA i would recommend all employee consider their employment as a 3 months rolling notice, bmibaby, Monarch, XL, Globespan, flybe
Loco outside of perhaps BA i would recommend all employee consider their employment as a 3 months rolling notice, bmibaby, Monarch, XL, Globespan, flybe
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BALPA might/should be interested in testing the 'permanent contract' status and T's & C's in a UK court. If it is operated as a 3 month rolling contract, and T's & C's changed willy nilly at the behest of NAS, I would expect BALPA to have a case to argue on behalf of their disadvantaged members. OSM have the duty of care to their employees. That can't just say it's out of their hands because in fact NAS pulls the strings. BALPA should be eager, but I doubt it will happen. In another sphere, after many of the guys at RYR have pumped €-m's into IALPA we have heard nothing about what fruits have come from seeds sown with those contributions. Are unions just stashing the dosh away for a rainy day for some more priority members' issue? The tax authorities in various countries seem to be getting their act together and warming up the engines. If there has always been a case why have the representatives of the crews not been more active? Just asking, as it has been very quiet on that front, across the whole industry, for 3 years or more.
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RAT5 & Kirks gusset
When most of us started it was a 2 year contract with a months notice by either party, i know of only a couple of guys that got the bullet with a months notice and that TBH was down to said individuals bringing the company into disrepute in the media (one now features heavily in the USA anti Norwegian traffic rights dispute) an awful lot more left for greener patches closer to home and gave and got one months notice period, no if or but and some hadn't even completed their line training, I'm sure those guys would agree they were treat fairly by Norwegian, they worked their notice and got paid what they were due, there was no bond for people coming new to the NG from the classic
It is a permanent contract with 3 months notice on either party, so its not a rolling contract, i.e. renewable after 3 months.
Anyway enough of all that good to see the new internal Spanish flights launched today starting October 2015
It is a permanent contract with 3 months notice on either party, so its not a rolling contract, i.e. renewable after 3 months.
Anyway enough of all that good to see the new internal Spanish flights launched today starting October 2015
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LNIDA quote:
"this is why they have chosen agency employee route"
It also allows Norwegian to treat their crew in this way:-
DN News, Dec 13, 2012
"Within Norwegian threats of reprisals against crew being used in daily operations"
Nettavisen News, July 10, 2013
"English [Norwegian] intimidates officers and employees from expressing themselves"
DN News, Nov 14, 2013
"None of them [agency crew] want to come forward for fear of their future with Norwegian"
E24 News, Jan 26, 2015
"Threatened pilots to sign a new contract using aggressive tactics and threats to revoke contracts if pilots did not sign"
Dagbladet News, March 3, 2015
"Feeling exposed to a witch hunt from Kjos" [cabin crew after reporting a serious safety occurrence]
There are many more reports in the media regarding the Kjos circumvention of employment law and employment principles by the use of agency employed crew.
Norwegian is effectively the employer by having full control over their crew. In fact, EU law states this to be the main consideration in defining an "employer". Kjos fights this EU regulation tooth and nail because it doesn't benefit him. However, he expects full recognition and rights as an EU airline, and even receives representation from the EU Commission at taxpayers expense!
The Norwegian regime permits crew to be fired at will and without recourse against Norwegian. Such an abhorrent working environment creates a fear culture and should be made illegal.
Perhaps LNIDA can provide information as to the status of the Captain who was fired for refusing to sign a new contract with a Spanish base, and what recourse he has against Norwegian?
"this is why they have chosen agency employee route"
It also allows Norwegian to treat their crew in this way:-
DN News, Dec 13, 2012
"Within Norwegian threats of reprisals against crew being used in daily operations"
Nettavisen News, July 10, 2013
"English [Norwegian] intimidates officers and employees from expressing themselves"
DN News, Nov 14, 2013
"None of them [agency crew] want to come forward for fear of their future with Norwegian"
E24 News, Jan 26, 2015
"Threatened pilots to sign a new contract using aggressive tactics and threats to revoke contracts if pilots did not sign"
Dagbladet News, March 3, 2015
"Feeling exposed to a witch hunt from Kjos" [cabin crew after reporting a serious safety occurrence]
There are many more reports in the media regarding the Kjos circumvention of employment law and employment principles by the use of agency employed crew.
Norwegian is effectively the employer by having full control over their crew. In fact, EU law states this to be the main consideration in defining an "employer". Kjos fights this EU regulation tooth and nail because it doesn't benefit him. However, he expects full recognition and rights as an EU airline, and even receives representation from the EU Commission at taxpayers expense!
The Norwegian regime permits crew to be fired at will and without recourse against Norwegian. Such an abhorrent working environment creates a fear culture and should be made illegal.
Perhaps LNIDA can provide information as to the status of the Captain who was fired for refusing to sign a new contract with a Spanish base, and what recourse he has against Norwegian?
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LNIDA:
I am pleased you are happy with your lot, however, you might recognize the fear culture were you to remove your heavily tinted, rose-colored glasses!
The latest report of Norwegian's free hand of labor abuse, enabled by its use of an agency employer:-
Dagbladet News, June 19, 2015
"This smells of punishment and discrimination, says deputy Vegard Einan in PARAT, which organizes pilots and cabin staff in English [Norwegian]"
Link to newspaper article:
Raser mot Norwegian: - Lukter av straff og forskjellsbehandling - nyheter - Dagbladet.no
What is the status of the Captain fired by Norwegian via his agency employer, for refusing to accept a unilateral change to his previously agreed base, and how is the 'white knight' of BALPA assisting him ?
I am pleased you are happy with your lot, however, you might recognize the fear culture were you to remove your heavily tinted, rose-colored glasses!
The latest report of Norwegian's free hand of labor abuse, enabled by its use of an agency employer:-
Dagbladet News, June 19, 2015
"This smells of punishment and discrimination, says deputy Vegard Einan in PARAT, which organizes pilots and cabin staff in English [Norwegian]"
Link to newspaper article:
Raser mot Norwegian: - Lukter av straff og forskjellsbehandling - nyheter - Dagbladet.no
What is the status of the Captain fired by Norwegian via his agency employer, for refusing to accept a unilateral change to his previously agreed base, and how is the 'white knight' of BALPA assisting him ?
