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Turkish Airlines THY working conditions - worse than announced?

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Turkish Airlines THY working conditions - worse than announced?

Old 14th May 2015, 08:16
  #61 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
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737mgm, so what's worse, a 1 hour flight "resting", or a 3 hour drive in heavy traffic?

Your duty does not start where you leave home. It starts when you sign on for the days work. How you get to work is up to you, and you sign the form accordingly.Otherwise you wouldn't be able to get the Bus, catch a train or whatever means of transport you use. If this was truly a rule by DGCA or the company, to have any meaningful application they would need to dictate a maximum distance from work you would be allowed to live.

How many guys in the US, UK, Australia etc commute using air travel? They're not dictated too by where they can live, and how they must get to work. Again, they sign they are well rested and take full responsibility.

If this company (and most others) truly care about "safety" involving the Pilots rest, then they would need to stop the ridiculous schedules in short haul...... but that costs money!
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Old 14th May 2015, 09:27
  #62 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2015
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twentyyearstoolate, you make a good point about the commute to work and the maximum distance that would need to be dictated.

At my company I often have flights that do not start at my homebase so my company will schedule me to arrive at the hotel so that I will have my required rest time. Let's say my flight leaves at 10pm and my company schedules me to arrive at noon (10 hours before when in the hotel away from home base) or more likely at my company, the day before. I might prefer to arrive just a few hours before my flight so that I can stay longer with my family but if I have an 11 FDP ahead of me I would not be legal if I do not check into my hotel at least 10 hours before check in time for my flight.

I was pretty sure the same would apply for your homebase but as you point out it is not defined where you should live and thus nobody actually knows how long you commute and as you point out duty starts when you check in at the airport. Therefore my previous post may be incorrect.
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Old 14th May 2015, 10:08
  #63 (permalink)  
Kapitanleutnant
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Sounds like it's becoming a lot like Emirates with that new rule.

If it's any indication of the future, it might be that there will be more "rules" like this as the minions start to realize they can restrict the pilot group even more with ridiculous rules like this one….

It still sounds better than the ME though…
 
Old 14th May 2015, 10:24
  #64 (permalink)  
 
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So the hard landing cause has changed from wake turbulence to a
fatigue issue?
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Old 14th May 2015, 10:42
  #65 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2015
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No it hasn't de facto, I was merely pointing out that if any type of incident occurs, investigators will look at every detail and if one flight crew member did not comply with the established rest times he/she will have a problem, whether fatigue is seen as a contributing factor or not.
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Old 14th May 2015, 10:54
  #66 (permalink)  
 
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What about augmented crew ,long haul ? I often wonder whats the point of all of us reporting fully rested when somebody has to go to the crew rest and try to sleep soon after take off? Not just a problem at THY.
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Old 14th May 2015, 11:12
  #67 (permalink)  
 
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I've heard both pilots involved in the Nepal accident were both commuters (Turkish domestic )

One may assume this was the reason for the 12 hour rule, as the timing fits perfectly.
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Old 14th May 2015, 12:02
  #68 (permalink)  
 
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Its incredible and embarrassing to the profession that this 12 hour rule should be used to bash THY as a company. Pilots are their own worst enemies, those thinking along the lines that THY is a third world company should return to their mobiles and continue with Whatsup, Facebook Viber and all the "essential" and " important" priorities they have.. truly pathetic ,
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Old 14th May 2015, 18:39
  #69 (permalink)  
 
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737mgm, so what's worse, a 1 hour flight "resting", or a 3 hour drive in heavy traffic?

Your duty does not start where you leave home. It starts when you sign on for the days work. How you get to work is up to you, and you sign the form accordingly.Otherwise you wouldn't be able to get the Bus, catch a train or whatever means of transport you use. If this was truly a rule by DGCA or the company, to have any meaningful application they would need to dictate a maximum distance from work you would be allowed to live.

How many guys in the US, UK, Australia etc commute using air travel? They're not dictated too by where they can live, and how they must get to work. Again, they sign they are well rested and take full responsibility.
20 years. Under EASA you'll have a legal responsibility, so i'm afraid to say that Commuters do have to take responsibility e.g. if they drive 3hrs before and the contract says 90 mins you are required to make local arrangements.
You'll find that Airlines with approved FRMS in UK for example have commuting protocols. This is as much to protect the airline as the employee e.g. driving home after a long duty - OK you might not do what the protocol says but then crew members (professional) responsibilities come into play.
Then 737mgm comments are highlighted
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Old 14th May 2015, 21:41
  #70 (permalink)  
 
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20 years. Under EASA you'll have a legal responsibility, so i'm afraid to say that Commuters do have to take responsibility e.g. if they drive 3hrs before and the contract says 90 mins you are required to make local arrangements.
What contract? There is no such thing in THY (as far as I'm aware) and neither in any other Airline I've worked for previous. Same as my layovers. What I do is my business. I could go on a 24 hour excursion and come to work absolutely exhausted, but I've had the "minimum rest".

Stop trying to justify these BS company regulations. I make sure I'm well rested before work, hence why I sign and accept the responsibility that I'm fit. I don't need a nanny to see I've had adequate rest and been in my room for the previous 12 hours. What is it with this industry? Full of idiots ruining the job and putting more and more pressures and responsibilities on crews, yet taking away all freedoms and decisions!

The 12 hours rule does make sense from a point of getting rest, but why the does it seem we are the only ones playing a game where we get adequate rest (and of course held accountable). The schedules these days are beyond ridiculous. I only wish the Airlines took a Pilots rest seriously. They don't...Period!! Safety is our number 1 priority (BS)... as long as it doesn't cost us money or resources!

Very easy solution. If you, the Airline, require me to be at the base 12 hours before for "safety", then you can put me "on the clock" and pay me for my time. If you're not willing to do that, then P.. Off and leave me to make my own decisions regarding my well being, safety and rest schedule!

It's a two way street...well, it should be anyway!
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Old 14th May 2015, 22:12
  #71 (permalink)  
 
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twentyyearstoolate,

Well said ! ! !
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Old 15th May 2015, 02:01
  #72 (permalink)  
 
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Does Ryanair, which id say around 50% of its pilots commute not have a rule where you cannot get the last flight from you're home to base? so say you have a 0600 report at base and you live around STN there are two flights a day to you're base one at 0900 and then another say 1800, you must get the flight the day before at 0900 making the 12 hour Turkish rule basically the same.... yet you rarely hear of Ryanair commuters complaining.
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Old 15th May 2015, 08:35
  #73 (permalink)  
 
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Considering all airlines will be required to carry out a fatigue risk assessment, only time will tell...Of course, crew do not do themselves any favours, if one considers the assessment carried out by a large orange outfit using active monitoring, it was found at times people should be " resting" they were highly active! The company argued sufficient " rest time" was provided, this was never in doubt, the issue was what people were doing during their allocated " rest" time
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Old 15th May 2015, 19:47
  #74 (permalink)  
 
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What contract? There is no such thing in THY (as far as I'm aware) and neither in any other Airline I've worked for previous. Same as my layovers. What I do is my business. I could go on a 24 hour excursion and come to work absolutely exhausted, but I've had the "minimum rest".

Stop trying to justify these BS company regulations. I make sure I'm well rested before work, hence why I sign and accept the responsibility that I'm fit. I don't need a nanny to see I've had adequate rest and been in my room for the previous 12 hours. What is it with this industry? Full of idiots ruining the job and putting more and more pressures and responsibilities on crews, yet taking away all freedoms and decisions!

The 12 hours rule does make sense from a point of getting rest, but why the does it seem we are the only ones playing a game where we get adequate rest (and of course held accountable). The schedules these days are beyond ridiculous. I only wish the Airlines took a Pilots rest seriously. They don't...Period!! Safety is our number 1 priority (BS)... as long as it doesn't cost us money or resources!

Very easy solution. If you, the Airline, require me to be at the base 12 hours before for "safety", then you can put me "on the clock" and pay me for my time. If you're not willing to do that, then P.. Off and leave me to make my own decisions regarding my well being, safety and rest schedule!
20 something
Quiet common in the UK for crews to be contracted to live within 90 mins base or to make available resting place if not. Been in place 20-30 years so nothing new
Come to work absolutely exhausted, P... Off etc - Professional Pilot or Cowboy
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Old 15th May 2015, 20:16
  #75 (permalink)  
 
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it was found at times people should be " resting" they were highly active! The company argued sufficient " rest time" was provided, this was never in doubt, the issue was what people were doing during their allocated " rest" time

Pilots on a tight 5/3 roster; sometimes away from home. You have a 14.00 report on day 1 after only 2 days at home. On the morning of day 1 on duty at home base do you:

1. have a gentle breakfast, relax, rest & report for duty 30 mins early due to BS
45 mins report/preflight planning schedule.
2. have normal breakfast 09.00, play 9 holes golf, lunch and arrive eager for work 1.00hr before STD.
3. wake up at 07.00, take kids to school, kiss wife goodbye to work, do morning shopping, load dishwasher & washing m/c, wash car and then get dressed for work and report 15mins earlier than required.
4. Wake up at 07.00 as wife takes kids to school; try to sleep longer; get up at 09.00; mow the lawn; take the car to car wash; make lunch & go to work at 13.00 for 11hr duty day.

Spoilt for choice really.
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Old 15th May 2015, 20:43
  #76 (permalink)  
 
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Mr. Angry in a hurry,

You are free to depart from any place to your PRO's place in the UK. Quiet or loud, all up to you. Lecturing from behind your keyboard with your "30" years experience. Any body with "your" experience punches through your "experience". While understanding wisdom from other writers, like respectfully Mr. 20years2late , cheers 20 "something" SIR.
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Old 15th May 2015, 20:55
  #77 (permalink)  
 
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RAT 5,

5. wake up at 04:00, leave home, no kiss Goodbye because she is snoring, kiss the dog Goodbye ( that is appreciated at least ) drive 1 hr to an airport, take a flight (sitting in the back) home-base, arrive several hrs before report & try & figure out how to waste the hrs available after going to the hotel to dump the stuff for the "week away" (being very grateful of the flexibility shown to check in at 10 in the morning) . . . . . that sounds average for me.

The alternative ? waste another day OFF by being at a place of work where you do not have life/family.
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Old 15th May 2015, 21:56
  #78 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
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Mr Angry from Purely:

Professional Pilot or Cowboy??!! Well, as a professional Pilot, as I certainly am, you imply I should be responsible and get the required rest.

This is my point entirely. I do, AND I commute.

From another thread you posted on:

The biggest risk to the Office worker and Pilot is the same - driving home.
I'm sat in business class sleeping!!! I guess that's dangerous too ?!

You really are an Angry from Purely !

Last edited by twentyyearstoolate; 15th May 2015 at 22:28.
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Old 18th May 2015, 09:57
  #79 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
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I signed a few years ago, so what I signed for in Lira is largely irrelevant as the inflation has been insane.

In terms of real use in the real world, my salary has declined approximately $1000 a month. That is when our adjusted yearly increment is applied twice a year, so it can be more of a loss as the months pass until the adjusted inflation rate. The increases are not keeping up with inflation, thus slowly earning less.

The accommodation allowance has remained the same for 6 years, so the purchasing power is far far less than it used to be.

When I joined US$1 = 1.4 Lira, Now its more like 2.7
If you signed for 18000 TL and now getting 21000 TL basic,you did get a pay RISE,if the LIRA is going to hell,you still got a pay rise in TL!
They are advertising a pay RISE in TL not in USD or EUR or whatever currency you use at home.
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Old 18th May 2015, 10:06
  #80 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
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They are advertising a pay RISE in TL not in USD or EUR or whatever currency you use at home.
Thanks Captain Obvious!

And BTW, we did not get a pay rise like they advertised. A pay rise for inflation is hardly a pay rise now is it

De Facto, I find it hard to rationalise your defence of the Smoke and Mirrors and deceit this company has shown.

Maybe you could get a job in Zimbabwe and claim some really amazing pay rises
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