Turboprop transition to jet?
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I'm sorry I should have formulated that differently. Whenever I talk to non flying people about the props I'm flying you always get some remarks about it being less difficult then flying jets. I just meant to say that we all have different challenges but that doesn't mean prop flying is anything less then flying a jet, it's just different. And regarding the passengers, we also get some quite difficult passengers on board, just not as many as you do.
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(Sarcasm on) I'm doing all the work the guy on the left should be doing anyway right?! So how hard can it be?! (Sarcasm mode off)
Last edited by harry-seaside; 8th Apr 2015 at 19:07.
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I m sure you can fly a big jet no doubt about your flying skills having been in props. But to operate a big jet across distances further in a single sector than your TP whole month combined is another matter. Something you ll have to learn with good attitude mu friend.
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I've never flew a turboprop before. I only flew jet. But i've heard from a turboprop captain i used to fly with, if the 
hits the fan and things go wrong in a turboprop, life is much harder than in a jet. So all this discrimination behaviour of turboprop people is completely misplaced i think. They are good qualified people to fly with a jet. But like always, it is all about $$$.
hits the fan and things go wrong in a turboprop, life is much harder than in a jet. So all this discrimination behaviour of turboprop people is completely misplaced i think. They are good qualified people to fly with a jet. But like always, it is all about $$$.
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Nothing to do with flying........follow the money !
Harry, your problem is that you are not worth putting through a type rating because you don't bring enough money with you, a 19 year old cadet will have to pay for the ATPL training (£100K ) and then the Jet type rating (£30K).
With this much money at stake you can buy a lot of HR numpty recruitment speak to tell the directors and airline HR departments why turboprop guys can't fly jets.
Harry you just have to face the fact that with your experience you will go through a jet type rating for very little cost, but this cost is not enough to support the hanggers on in the industry who are all getting a small percentage of what the cadets spend to become jet pilots.
The bottom line is money not skill talks, and Harry you don't bring enough money to the party.
With this much money at stake you can buy a lot of HR numpty recruitment speak to tell the directors and airline HR departments why turboprop guys can't fly jets.
Harry you just have to face the fact that with your experience you will go through a jet type rating for very little cost, but this cost is not enough to support the hanggers on in the industry who are all getting a small percentage of what the cadets spend to become jet pilots.
The bottom line is money not skill talks, and Harry you don't bring enough money to the party.
Mach 3
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I m sure you can fly a big jet no doubt about your flying skills having been in props. But to operate a big jet across distances further in a single sector than your TP whole month combined is another matter. Something you ll have to learn with good attitude mu friend.
I fly the 744 presently.
The job is a lot easier than a typical 737/TP job from an operational standpoint. You only do something once every 10 hours...
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Then why does so many Tp guys have problems getting a jet job? Myself came from Fokker 50 onto jets many years ago. Many guys didnt get the jet job, mind you it was an internal company fleet progression. Guys who didnt make it were told they didnt have the attitude of airline pilot. Guys who got terminated during training were told that they just didnt have enough knowledge. As a trainer, I personally prefer guys who had TP time but purely for the stick rudder skills which make training easier. However the attitude can ge questionable most of the time
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Then why does so many Tp guys have problems getting a jet job?
being skilled and smart never help any company. Because you will be seens as a potential
who may negociate this and that etc.Youngs wannabe are like modelling clay.
Green lights has nailed it.
In past years progression within airlines could have typically been from something basic like the DC3 to something very complex like the L188. There is no more of a quantum leap going from, say, a Dash 8 to any of today's jets.
Training an experienced turboprop pilot on a jet would usually take less time than it would to teach a 200 hour cadet to the same level of competence.
If a pilot can fly any jet well, they can quickly adapt to either short haul or long haul. Each has its own challenges, but neither requires supernatural powers.
It is all about how Management see malleability. The experienced turboprop pilot may sometimes display independent thought. Any potential challenge to the 'Company' way is seen as a threat.
Occasionally 'attitude' does rear its ugly head during training. That can and should be dealt with decisively by the training department. The words "Company way or the highway" should get the required result. Should that occasionally fail, then a ritual sacking sends the message to any other potential challengers. With such a clear policy, only rarely will turboprop pilots not make the grade to jets.
In past years progression within airlines could have typically been from something basic like the DC3 to something very complex like the L188. There is no more of a quantum leap going from, say, a Dash 8 to any of today's jets.
Training an experienced turboprop pilot on a jet would usually take less time than it would to teach a 200 hour cadet to the same level of competence.
If a pilot can fly any jet well, they can quickly adapt to either short haul or long haul. Each has its own challenges, but neither requires supernatural powers.
It is all about how Management see malleability. The experienced turboprop pilot may sometimes display independent thought. Any potential challenge to the 'Company' way is seen as a threat.
Occasionally 'attitude' does rear its ugly head during training. That can and should be dealt with decisively by the training department. The words "Company way or the highway" should get the required result. Should that occasionally fail, then a ritual sacking sends the message to any other potential challengers. With such a clear policy, only rarely will turboprop pilots not make the grade to jets.
Last edited by Mach E Avelli; 10th Apr 2015 at 21:23.
If flying a Chieftain or Baron paid my mortgage etc then we'd all stay! Jet operations is where the money is, unfortunately it's the truth. I've done it all...SEP-TEP-TP now Jet. The jet isn't easier to fly it's just different, turn the auto thrust off and hey it's a TP. I'd go jet anyway, TP command means nothing as you have all proven. Good luck!
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Hi
I am sorry perhaps this was said before in this long thread (I did not read it entirely) but I would like to say something that addresses the reasons.
It is an unfortunate fact that a fresh unexperienced pilot does better in terms of training performance on a fast commercial EFIS jet. These are just cold statistics and many ex-turboprop captains fail line training as FO in our company.
I personally flew with an FO coming from a lighter jet with lots of hours as a Captain and he, as well had a lot of trouble catching up with what was going on.
I really don't want to generalise or speculate why, however it seems to be a totally different set of skills and thinking that is required.
Another reasons is psychological - many super-experienced turbo-prop captains come onto the A320 flying with young un-experienced captains and getting severely frustrated by their own under-performance and position.
We are not really pilots, we are (computer) managers and the flying is like being a robot, except of the few situations you are suddenly required to think outside of the box (that's where the experience would be helpful).
However 99% you are required to be a good-functioning and precise robot, knowing the SOPs down to the last letter and applying ready solutions to highly-typical situations.
If you are desperate to get onto a jet - lie, throw away your logbook, and play low-houred cadet ready to learn - if you are able/willing (why would you want to?) to adapt to that.
I don't see another way in.
(Also tried to help many turbo-prop captains to get even a self-sponsored type rating and failed)
I'm afraid that's what happening to any industry as it expands: nobody wants a programmer who is able to disassemble some obscure old code now-adays. Companies want the programmers who know all the modern techniques and seamlessly fit into their computer factories.
That's what's happening I am afraid.
I am sorry perhaps this was said before in this long thread (I did not read it entirely) but I would like to say something that addresses the reasons.
It is an unfortunate fact that a fresh unexperienced pilot does better in terms of training performance on a fast commercial EFIS jet. These are just cold statistics and many ex-turboprop captains fail line training as FO in our company.
I personally flew with an FO coming from a lighter jet with lots of hours as a Captain and he, as well had a lot of trouble catching up with what was going on.
I really don't want to generalise or speculate why, however it seems to be a totally different set of skills and thinking that is required.
Another reasons is psychological - many super-experienced turbo-prop captains come onto the A320 flying with young un-experienced captains and getting severely frustrated by their own under-performance and position.
We are not really pilots, we are (computer) managers and the flying is like being a robot, except of the few situations you are suddenly required to think outside of the box (that's where the experience would be helpful).
However 99% you are required to be a good-functioning and precise robot, knowing the SOPs down to the last letter and applying ready solutions to highly-typical situations.
If you are desperate to get onto a jet - lie, throw away your logbook, and play low-houred cadet ready to learn - if you are able/willing (why would you want to?) to adapt to that.
I don't see another way in.
(Also tried to help many turbo-prop captains to get even a self-sponsored type rating and failed)
I'm afraid that's what happening to any industry as it expands: nobody wants a programmer who is able to disassemble some obscure old code now-adays. Companies want the programmers who know all the modern techniques and seamlessly fit into their computer factories.
That's what's happening I am afraid.
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Interesting take on it skipping, but I know many smaller jet captains that fly now on the a320 - 747 and not one met the chop and all said that the transition was easy enough. Even left seat to left. So with due respect to only thing the low hour cadet brings to the table is working for **** all wages!
But conversely the experienced captain from a smaller type or turbo prop has seen ATC trying to screw things up, poor weather when cat3 auto land is not fitted and having to hand fly past cat2 minima. On board issues like disruptive pax and med emergency. Aircraft and nav aid failures etc. I could go on.
There is more to being a pilot that an blind sop monkey and being good with computer games and an FMS
But conversely the experienced captain from a smaller type or turbo prop has seen ATC trying to screw things up, poor weather when cat3 auto land is not fitted and having to hand fly past cat2 minima. On board issues like disruptive pax and med emergency. Aircraft and nav aid failures etc. I could go on.
There is more to being a pilot that an blind sop monkey and being good with computer games and an FMS
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Deep and fast...
I did not say anything that contradicts your statement. Regarding the training performance is just the experience from our airline (in fact my-soon-to-be-ex-airline).
You have to be a good pilot, but only sometimes, most of the time you have to be the perfect monkey, and if you are not, the airlines dont want you.
Bottom line you have to fit into the factory, being a great pilot doesn't relieve you from knowing how to jump the hoops most of the time and being a good monkey won't save your ass in those 1% of other cases
And most of all this is not my personal opinion how things should be, merely cold-blooded observations how things are...
I did not say anything that contradicts your statement. Regarding the training performance is just the experience from our airline (in fact my-soon-to-be-ex-airline).
You have to be a good pilot, but only sometimes, most of the time you have to be the perfect monkey, and if you are not, the airlines dont want you.
Bottom line you have to fit into the factory, being a great pilot doesn't relieve you from knowing how to jump the hoops most of the time and being a good monkey won't save your ass in those 1% of other cases
And most of all this is not my personal opinion how things should be, merely cold-blooded observations how things are...
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While I am not a trainer, I've been recently flying with new people from both backgrounds. My experience is exactly opposite to what Skipping Classes said - the ex-turboprop guys are normaly very easy to work with and tend to know their stuff well enough immediately after Line Training. they are experienced airline pilot, who just happened to change the type. Cadets on the other hand tend to be a liability rather than asset for months after release. Of course, there are oddballs (like an ex-fastjet guy who's been on the line almost a year and still has no clue, or an ex regional jet guy whom I wouldn't trust an wheelbarrow, let alone an Airbus). All in all however, give me a turboprop/light jet guy over a cadet anytime
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Turboprop pilots or light jets who go to big jets are way better then wannabes, you don't learn piloting in a sim.
This should a normal step where pilots gain experience on smaller aircrafts and then get hired and get trained by the jet airlines when they have sufficient experience.
The system is completely upside down. The "lobby" of jet ppcs will say otherwise, I call it BS and this people are hypocrites, or they dig their heads in the sand.. It is time for a change.
Jet pilots should have a minimum of 1500 hours crew experience in order to be allowed in.
This should a normal step where pilots gain experience on smaller aircrafts and then get hired and get trained by the jet airlines when they have sufficient experience.
The system is completely upside down. The "lobby" of jet ppcs will say otherwise, I call it BS and this people are hypocrites, or they dig their heads in the sand.. It is time for a change.
Jet pilots should have a minimum of 1500 hours crew experience in order to be allowed in.
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An SOP monkey is a requirement in any operation. You use the company, turbo prop medium jet or wideass. You operate the equipment the way the company want it operated, end off. If any pilot doesn't like that, then change the sops with you fleet manager or change your career.
What I will say again(sorry if I'm getting a little boring) is that all operating standards being equal, the experienced guy will be less spooked, have more spare available capacity and the left seat will be less single pilot ops in more difficult situations.
A low housed guy tried to convince me that we were lining up at the next right turn taxiway onto the runway in LVPs. I stopped put the park brake on and showed the taxi chart, noting that the runway was to the left and the right although the signage could have been better. Easy mistake(think BA 777) but it was a long day with poor weather and that could have been the end of us.
I'm sure there are a few very sharpe cadets as well but the more risky part is in my view 500-1000 hours on type. You think you've got nailed and then you get screwed )
What I will say again(sorry if I'm getting a little boring) is that all operating standards being equal, the experienced guy will be less spooked, have more spare available capacity and the left seat will be less single pilot ops in more difficult situations.
A low housed guy tried to convince me that we were lining up at the next right turn taxiway onto the runway in LVPs. I stopped put the park brake on and showed the taxi chart, noting that the runway was to the left and the right although the signage could have been better. Easy mistake(think BA 777) but it was a long day with poor weather and that could have been the end of us.
I'm sure there are a few very sharpe cadets as well but the more risky part is in my view 500-1000 hours on type. You think you've got nailed and then you get screwed )
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The answer is, they can't. This is all about airlines making extra money using cheap cadet labour.
If it's any conciliation, the guys on 20-24 ton jets are having similar problems moving up.
Me, I'm not paying for another thing. I'm here to take the cash!
If it's any conciliation, the guys on 20-24 ton jets are having similar problems moving up.
Me, I'm not paying for another thing. I'm here to take the cash!
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I could only get a heavy jet job with 200hours on Cessna 152 plus I needed like 20 hours on piston twin! With 4000 you should have got the job instead of me. The logic is nuts