Norwegian B787 - LGW based
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Right so you are paid by the month, not annnually? So I am confused people seemed to be saying you were employed by OSM but surely you can't be an employee Without an anual salary, does that not make you a contractor? What happens if your sick or pregnant do they still pay you this monthly amount? How do they pay you a 5 percent pension if there is no reference salary to pay it against. Also everyone keeps saying based on 60 hours a month, if you work more than 60 do you get extra money? And if you work less do you still receive your full monthly pay.
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God knows Enzo. PPJN is not very clear but then nothing about OSM is.
If they are full time permanent contracts with OSM then why is an annual gross salary so difficult to source. Surely it would be quoted by numerous individuals who would come on on here and say so.
It has been mentioned on here that OSM deduct UK Tax and National Insurance and if this is the case then individuals would appear to be employees of OSM but what these individuals do if Norwegian don't like the individual I just don't know. What if an OSM pilot joins BALPA? What would Norwegian do? Return the individual to OSM ? I am assuming that Norwegian are OSMs only airline "customer".
If they are full time permanent contracts with OSM then why is an annual gross salary so difficult to source. Surely it would be quoted by numerous individuals who would come on on here and say so.
It has been mentioned on here that OSM deduct UK Tax and National Insurance and if this is the case then individuals would appear to be employees of OSM but what these individuals do if Norwegian don't like the individual I just don't know. What if an OSM pilot joins BALPA? What would Norwegian do? Return the individual to OSM ? I am assuming that Norwegian are OSMs only airline "customer".
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(Right so you are paid by the month, not annually), guess this must be true then for all the monthly salaries quoted on PPJN.. Emirates, Qatar, Supnexpress, etc etc..Normally pension contributions are levied at x% of the " basic" for all companies, if O/T is based on block hours, it's just that.. can't see what the confusion is.. regarding getting sick.. in 24 years I've never known a company that pays your salary ad infinitum until you get well...after a period of grace you rely on temporary loss of licence insurance.. So.. Salary is based on BASIC+PER DIEM+BLOCK HOURS.. if you fly no hours you still get a BASIC.. guess that means your not a " contractor".. I don't pay my painter if he doesn't paint my ceiling ..OSM have several clients as an " agency" they recruit for other airlines, not just Norwegian
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Norwegian pilot jobs news for airline pilots and aviation schools god helps those that help themselves and time spent on diagnosis is rarely wasted!
Join Date: Nov 2010
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Don’t worry too much about being an employee of OSM staffing agency, being rented out and having no labor rights or labor principles directly with the Norwegian airline. This is only a temporary solution – allegedly:
Norwegian CEO, Bjorn Kjos wrote to the DOT on June 1, 2015, testifying;
“Norwegian has regularly utilized the services of employment agencies for the recruitment of temporary provision of crews for a transitional period of 24-26 months in connection with the opening of new bases”
https://www.regulations.gov/document...2013-0204-0203
(open pdf file and scroll to letter)
Perhaps Norwegian’s pilots based in Spain and LGW, still employed by a staffing agency after "24-26 months", can tell us if the statement by Kjos is honest or dishonest?
Norwegian CEO, Bjorn Kjos wrote to the DOT on June 1, 2015, testifying;
“Norwegian has regularly utilized the services of employment agencies for the recruitment of temporary provision of crews for a transitional period of 24-26 months in connection with the opening of new bases”
https://www.regulations.gov/document...2013-0204-0203
(open pdf file and scroll to letter)
Perhaps Norwegian’s pilots based in Spain and LGW, still employed by a staffing agency after "24-26 months", can tell us if the statement by Kjos is honest or dishonest?
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And the point being ? As you point out after 36 months, if they don't like it they have had ample opportunity to make up their own minds and vote with their feet. We don't need to lecture them on life choices, its a rather arrogant stance to take, almost insulting to be honest.
Last edited by Avenger; 1st Feb 2017 at 16:18.
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Read the Kjos letter to the DOT.
I am interested to hear if you believe it to be misleading with respect to agency sourced crews and the expectation of eventual direct employment with a Norwegian airline.
I am interested to hear if you believe it to be misleading with respect to agency sourced crews and the expectation of eventual direct employment with a Norwegian airline.
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Why would I want to do that?, I don't care if Kjos says he's Batman, with Trump in the hot seat we have more to worry about globally than corporate spin. Kos has cleverly bought time by recruiting pilots and crew in the US and that has spiked the guns over there, now, whether or not these are direct employees, agency staff, part timers of ad-hocs doesn't matter to the unemployed guys taking the jobs or those seeking a change of airline. Pilots fly planes not desks and contracts .
It is indeed going to be interesting to see what our unpromising hysteric will have to say about SAS taking out an AOC in Ireland and opening bases in London and Spain.
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Flipflapflop
Those pilots in the U.K. Are employees of OSM, they pay PAYE tax & NI and have the same employment rights as any other person employed in the U.K.
The result of Norwegian not likening someone and wanting them off the contract ( as some on this forum like to suggest) would be interesting as without grounds for dismissal OSM would likely find themselfs in an industrial court with BALPA and the law on the employees side.
OSM recognised BALPA some time back so union membership is not a problem.
The result of Norwegian not likening someone and wanting them off the contract ( as some on this forum like to suggest) would be interesting as without grounds for dismissal OSM would likely find themselfs in an industrial court with BALPA and the law on the employees side.
OSM recognised BALPA some time back so union membership is not a problem.
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So their basic pay must be in pounds? The PPJN web site that I keep getting directed to quotes all monthly basics in euros but the flight pay and per diems in pounds is this correct. Surely you can't pay taxes to the UK inland revenue in euros? Also what is a per diem? It appears to be a fixed amount so why is it not just included as part of the basic?
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Enzo, you don't appear to understand the concept of pay and per diems or that companies can publish pay in any currency but usually pay in local currency. Cathy publish pay in HKD but pay UK staff in GBP. Just convert the Euros to pounds using an exchange rate tool for an approximate salary as some companies fix the exchange rate in advance
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No I don't understand it which is why I am asking for someone to explain it to me. maybe I am just stupid but this seems like the most complicated arrangement I have ever heard, paid half in euros half in pounds, taxes paid to the inland revenue in a forgiven currency, employed by one company and rented to another! I just fail to see how anything so confused and converluted can be to the benefit of the employee. Anyway if your not willing to explain then I won't loose too much sleep over it, providing you happy with what the deal is then crack on.
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@Enzo999
I think people are getting you confused and mixing a lot really in this Thread with SH and LH.
Salaries in Pounds TRI 9.587 CAPT 7.844 RCA 6.101 FO 4.358
I do not have exact figures in Pounds for Per diems but around 1K extra independent of the position.
As far as I know there is no pay for Flight Hours. Basic + Per Diem PERIOD.
For the first 3 years is a Rishworth Contract After that is an OSM contract.
Apparently OSM contract is much better but have to wait the 3 years and do not know the figures of that one either.
I think people are getting you confused and mixing a lot really in this Thread with SH and LH.
Salaries in Pounds TRI 9.587 CAPT 7.844 RCA 6.101 FO 4.358
I do not have exact figures in Pounds for Per diems but around 1K extra independent of the position.
As far as I know there is no pay for Flight Hours. Basic + Per Diem PERIOD.
For the first 3 years is a Rishworth Contract After that is an OSM contract.
Apparently OSM contract is much better but have to wait the 3 years and do not know the figures of that one either.
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A and C;
Those pilots in the UK are indeed employees of OSM, pay tax, NI, and have employment rights with OSM only, NOT with the Norwegian airline.
The Norwegian airline does not have to “dismiss” anyone, because they do not employ anyone. They simply return the rented pilot(s) or cabin crew(s) to their employer agency, OSM, without notice, reason or recourse.
Agency contracts for the provision of crews to a Norwegian airline contain the clause that “no employment relationship exists between the employee and the present lessee airline” or similar. Read the contract.
A UK Employment Tribunal will only hear disputes between an employer and an employee. Therefore, a LGW based 787 or 737 pilot having a dispute with a Norwegian airline has no legal recourse. BALPA represents pilots to their employer, OSM, not to a Norwegian airline.
I cannot fathom why Norwegian’s LGW based pilots continue to fill BALPA’s coffers with union dues for representation to a staffing agency, when the legal prerequisites exist for representation directly to the Norwegian airline. This is the option Norwegian's US and Spanish crews are pursuing via International Labor Organization guidance:
http://www.ilo.org/wcmsp5/groups/pub...cms_209280.pdf
But yes, I agree, there are far worse options. My dispute is with those who would misrepresent the OSM employment and the Norwegian airline “unemployment” circumstances.
Those pilots in the UK are indeed employees of OSM, pay tax, NI, and have employment rights with OSM only, NOT with the Norwegian airline.
The Norwegian airline does not have to “dismiss” anyone, because they do not employ anyone. They simply return the rented pilot(s) or cabin crew(s) to their employer agency, OSM, without notice, reason or recourse.
Agency contracts for the provision of crews to a Norwegian airline contain the clause that “no employment relationship exists between the employee and the present lessee airline” or similar. Read the contract.
A UK Employment Tribunal will only hear disputes between an employer and an employee. Therefore, a LGW based 787 or 737 pilot having a dispute with a Norwegian airline has no legal recourse. BALPA represents pilots to their employer, OSM, not to a Norwegian airline.
I cannot fathom why Norwegian’s LGW based pilots continue to fill BALPA’s coffers with union dues for representation to a staffing agency, when the legal prerequisites exist for representation directly to the Norwegian airline. This is the option Norwegian's US and Spanish crews are pursuing via International Labor Organization guidance:
http://www.ilo.org/wcmsp5/groups/pub...cms_209280.pdf
But yes, I agree, there are far worse options. My dispute is with those who would misrepresent the OSM employment and the Norwegian airline “unemployment” circumstances.
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@Enzo999
I think people are getting you confused and mixing a lot really in this Thread with SH and LH.
Salaries in Pounds TRI 9.587 CAPT 7.844 RCA 6.101 FO 4.358
I do not have exact figures in Pounds for Per diems but around 1K extra independent of the position.
As far as I know there is no pay for Flight Hours. Basic + Per Diem PERIOD.
For the first 3 years is a Rishworth Contract After that is an OSM contract.
Apparently OSM contract is much better but have to wait the 3 years and do not know the figures of that one either.
I think people are getting you confused and mixing a lot really in this Thread with SH and LH.
Salaries in Pounds TRI 9.587 CAPT 7.844 RCA 6.101 FO 4.358
I do not have exact figures in Pounds for Per diems but around 1K extra independent of the position.
As far as I know there is no pay for Flight Hours. Basic + Per Diem PERIOD.
For the first 3 years is a Rishworth Contract After that is an OSM contract.
Apparently OSM contract is much better but have to wait the 3 years and do not know the figures of that one either.
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