Norwegian B787 - LGW based
Gender Faculty Specialist
Oh, that's easy dear chap . The customers perception of who is flying their airplane.
I thought I made that clear. But not to you it seems.
The bottom line is that some pilots like to be associated with a particular brand. And everything that goes with that.
As for 'most', then the best we can do is look at the numbers going from legacy to lcc, or the other way around. And after that, just let the numbers speak for themselves. I've done both, believe me, and so has most of my colleagues.
I thought I made that clear. But not to you it seems.
The bottom line is that some pilots like to be associated with a particular brand. And everything that goes with that.
As for 'most', then the best we can do is look at the numbers going from legacy to lcc, or the other way around. And after that, just let the numbers speak for themselves. I've done both, believe me, and so has most of my colleagues.
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Different strokes for different folks. Pay me enough and I'll even haul rubber dogsh1t out of Hong Kong. Oh wait. I already do that.
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But it does provide me with first class travel, a decent retirement cushion and a standard of operation that goes beyond the regulated minimums. I fly with colleagues who have chosen to be here as opposed to wishing they were somewhere else. The flying doesn't leave much to the imagination and the greens take me from the runway to the gate to the bed, but at the end of the day I'm left with enough time and cash to jump in the two seater parked in a hangar a short drive away if I ever feel the need.
You've tried both worlds and creds for choosing the glove that fits the hand. I know guys who have gone from legacy to lcc at their own choosing and never looked back. But let's be honest about it; they're the exception rather than the rule.
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Come on
Gents,
I think we get a litte of Topic here. It is so simple, Not all of US have the choice.
There Are Pilots Out their, that have been employed with major carriers for a Long Time (Sabena for Example). Since the Company went bust, I know a guy who went through 7 insolvencies! So what, Are they worse pilots? of course Not!
but they just don't have the choice! What about if you have worked As a Cpt for Ten years and your Company goes titts up? You have nearly no Chance with the Major Airlines in Europe, it is more then great, that companies like Norwegian give you the Chance! Happy for everybody, who is in a Lucky Position, high seniority with a Legacy, or Major Airline, great, but Not everybody can choose, don't forget this!
I Miss some airmenship every now and then in this Forum!
happy Landings, to all of you
I think we get a litte of Topic here. It is so simple, Not all of US have the choice.
There Are Pilots Out their, that have been employed with major carriers for a Long Time (Sabena for Example). Since the Company went bust, I know a guy who went through 7 insolvencies! So what, Are they worse pilots? of course Not!
but they just don't have the choice! What about if you have worked As a Cpt for Ten years and your Company goes titts up? You have nearly no Chance with the Major Airlines in Europe, it is more then great, that companies like Norwegian give you the Chance! Happy for everybody, who is in a Lucky Position, high seniority with a Legacy, or Major Airline, great, but Not everybody can choose, don't forget this!
I Miss some airmenship every now and then in this Forum!
happy Landings, to all of you
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Zapper,
You are barking up the wrong tree here mate. In the UK, anyone not in the upper echelons of a legacy seniority list is considered a lesser being and if they suffer redundancy, then it is exactly what they deserve for not being one of the chosen ones. Nothing to do with luck of course, the blessed ones were individually chosen by god to be superior to everyone else and it is their sacred duty to rub our noses in it.
You sentiments are appreciated and mirror my own.
Merci and bon chance.
You are barking up the wrong tree here mate. In the UK, anyone not in the upper echelons of a legacy seniority list is considered a lesser being and if they suffer redundancy, then it is exactly what they deserve for not being one of the chosen ones. Nothing to do with luck of course, the blessed ones were individually chosen by god to be superior to everyone else and it is their sacred duty to rub our noses in it.
You sentiments are appreciated and mirror my own.
Merci and bon chance.
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If you want to join a legacy carrier then go do it, but make sure you are young.
We had guys join big airways from my last outfit on the clapped out 767 . As they know it's 400 years to a shot at command, big airways tries to keep them interested by coming up with courses for them with names such as ' diversity in the cockpit with applied shamanism ' or some such stuff.
Not only that their rosters are sh.....not good, as there are 120,000 pilots above them on the seniority list.
Can't see the attraction if you're over 30. But then again I never had much patience .
We had guys join big airways from my last outfit on the clapped out 767 . As they know it's 400 years to a shot at command, big airways tries to keep them interested by coming up with courses for them with names such as ' diversity in the cockpit with applied shamanism ' or some such stuff.
Not only that their rosters are sh.....not good, as there are 120,000 pilots above them on the seniority list.
Can't see the attraction if you're over 30. But then again I never had much patience .
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I was interested in this airline myself, BUT it's nuts to pay 30K up front to a company that might go bust. If they failed in a big way you could kiss that deposit goodbye.
I bet their financial chaps say it's in a secure but little known bank, that then turns out to be owned by guess who, so goes bust at the same time as the airline.
I've written a letter to the EASA medical folks saying that any new co-pilot that pays up front for a type rating should fail a class 1 medical on the grounds of insanity!
I bet their financial chaps say it's in a secure but little known bank, that then turns out to be owned by guess who, so goes bust at the same time as the airline.
I've written a letter to the EASA medical folks saying that any new co-pilot that pays up front for a type rating should fail a class 1 medical on the grounds of insanity!
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Fade, we appreciate your opinions on your experience of Norwegian. Even though you had little choice with your decision.
I don't share your vitriol agains being in BA, it was the place to be and may well still be.As conditions of service in BA have fallen, those offered by the rest have plummeted. Except in Asia.
Interestingly, we never hear of Virgin pilots leaving. They must now be considered No.1
I don't share your vitriol agains being in BA, it was the place to be and may well still be.As conditions of service in BA have fallen, those offered by the rest have plummeted. Except in Asia.
Interestingly, we never hear of Virgin pilots leaving. They must now be considered No.1
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fade to grey quote:
"The bank involved is one of the largest in the world. It's not some conspiracy between the banks and Rishworth"
It is implausible in the extreme to suggest the above condition makes the Norwegian up-front payment scheme both ethical and legitimate, even less so due to the involvement of New Zealand based Rishworth, via their Sweden office and Crawley UK, broom cupboard affiliate.
"The bank involved is one of the largest in the world. It's not some conspiracy between the banks and Rishworth"
It is implausible in the extreme to suggest the above condition makes the Norwegian up-front payment scheme both ethical and legitimate, even less so due to the involvement of New Zealand based Rishworth, via their Sweden office and Crawley UK, broom cupboard affiliate.
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Direct Bondi has hit the nail on the head, as the whole situation is a tad Iffy, both in contract and financial terms.
The Rishworth sales dept fan fails to understand that some wanabees borrow money against their parents house, so if things don't work out as regards upfront or type rating bonds, they might all finish up on the street.
Many of them are in enough financial trouble already, without giving away more of their family fortune!
The Rishworth sales dept fan fails to understand that some wanabees borrow money against their parents house, so if things don't work out as regards upfront or type rating bonds, they might all finish up on the street.
Many of them are in enough financial trouble already, without giving away more of their family fortune!
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We are getting nowhere here.
/ I merely pointed out there is no shady deal between rishworth and a bank owned by rishworth . This is incorrect and into the realms of conspiracy theory . I offer no opinion on the ethics or anything else of the deal.
/ wannabes and their parents will not be on the street due to securing loans on their houses. We don't take wannabes, you need to be an experienced Boeing pilot ( or Airbus ) to go on the 787.
/ I'm not trying to persuade people to join , I don't care either way. I only posted here to r redress some of the bull being spoken as I am party to the actual reality.
/ I merely pointed out there is no shady deal between rishworth and a bank owned by rishworth . This is incorrect and into the realms of conspiracy theory . I offer no opinion on the ethics or anything else of the deal.
/ wannabes and their parents will not be on the street due to securing loans on their houses. We don't take wannabes, you need to be an experienced Boeing pilot ( or Airbus ) to go on the 787.
/ I'm not trying to persuade people to join , I don't care either way. I only posted here to r redress some of the bull being spoken as I am party to the actual reality.
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The actual reality is a circumvention and misrepresentation scheme.
The Norwegian Airline Group recruits, interviews, hires, determines the base, roster, days off, vacation, promotion opportunities, layoffs and may also terminate pilots and cabin crew. By EU law definition, Norwegian is the employer.
Pilots and cabin crew working for Norwegian in the UK are not working under the UK Employment Act 2008. As such, they have no claim whatsoever against Norwegian in any employment dispute. Nor do they have the right to union representation or collective agreement with Norwegian.
Pilots and cabin crew in the UK employed by an agency, are working under the Agency Workers Regulations 2010. Although Norwegian may have misrepresented itself as the "employer" on crew airport ID badges and US visa applications.
Since the March 31, 2008 effective date of the EU US Open-Skies Agreement, 57 EU carriers have applied and been granted US Permits. The average time between application and granting the requests was 55 days. After 15 months, the longest time of any application, the DOT is no closer to granting NAI its permit. Serious concerns remain regarding Norwegian's circumvention of employment rights and principles.
Several weeks ago Kjos boasted in the Norway press that he did not need the US Permit - link:
- Vi kan fly til krampa tar oss med de tillatelsene vi har - DN.no
* copy and paste to Google Translate
More recently, Kjos has written a begging letter to DOT Secretary Foxx pleading for the US Permit - link:
Kjos frir til Obama for å få trafikkrettigheter i USA - Aftenposten
In reply to the Kjos letter the Secretary of the European Transport Workers Union, Francos Ballastero, stated:
"In an attempt to pursue the policy stated in the employment agreement, the Spain based pilots have organized themselves under SEPLA, the Spanish pilots union, and have made repeated attempts to engage Norwegian or representatives of Norwegian, for the purposes of constructive talks. For the past six months these repeated attempts have been completely ignored by Norwegian. As a reply to these efforts made by the pilot representatives, Norwegian has stated it does not have any pilots in Spain, but an agency called OSM does"
Article 17 of the current US-EU Air Transport Agreement, Open-Skies, states: "The opportunites created by the Agreemnt are not intended to undermine the labor standards or the labor related rights and principles contained in the Parties respective laws"
Norwegian categorically does not meet the prerequisite requirement of Article 17. A US Permit cannot be granted.
The Norwegian Airline Group recruits, interviews, hires, determines the base, roster, days off, vacation, promotion opportunities, layoffs and may also terminate pilots and cabin crew. By EU law definition, Norwegian is the employer.
Pilots and cabin crew working for Norwegian in the UK are not working under the UK Employment Act 2008. As such, they have no claim whatsoever against Norwegian in any employment dispute. Nor do they have the right to union representation or collective agreement with Norwegian.
Pilots and cabin crew in the UK employed by an agency, are working under the Agency Workers Regulations 2010. Although Norwegian may have misrepresented itself as the "employer" on crew airport ID badges and US visa applications.
Since the March 31, 2008 effective date of the EU US Open-Skies Agreement, 57 EU carriers have applied and been granted US Permits. The average time between application and granting the requests was 55 days. After 15 months, the longest time of any application, the DOT is no closer to granting NAI its permit. Serious concerns remain regarding Norwegian's circumvention of employment rights and principles.
Several weeks ago Kjos boasted in the Norway press that he did not need the US Permit - link:
- Vi kan fly til krampa tar oss med de tillatelsene vi har - DN.no
* copy and paste to Google Translate
More recently, Kjos has written a begging letter to DOT Secretary Foxx pleading for the US Permit - link:
Kjos frir til Obama for å få trafikkrettigheter i USA - Aftenposten
In reply to the Kjos letter the Secretary of the European Transport Workers Union, Francos Ballastero, stated:
"In an attempt to pursue the policy stated in the employment agreement, the Spain based pilots have organized themselves under SEPLA, the Spanish pilots union, and have made repeated attempts to engage Norwegian or representatives of Norwegian, for the purposes of constructive talks. For the past six months these repeated attempts have been completely ignored by Norwegian. As a reply to these efforts made by the pilot representatives, Norwegian has stated it does not have any pilots in Spain, but an agency called OSM does"
Article 17 of the current US-EU Air Transport Agreement, Open-Skies, states: "The opportunites created by the Agreemnt are not intended to undermine the labor standards or the labor related rights and principles contained in the Parties respective laws"
Norwegian categorically does not meet the prerequisite requirement of Article 17. A US Permit cannot be granted.
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Aren't all the NLH crew now UK based? and if so, they will be subject to UK agency employment laws , in this respect, I fail to see what the 737 Pilots based in Spain have to do with the NLH DOT application, Incidentally, the Spanish are no blueprint for labour relations given their record of airline strikes and ATC strikes.. which brings me to the next point, if they are so unhappy in Spain, why don't they strike as usual.. answers on a postcard!
Last edited by Avenger; 25th Jul 2015 at 17:27.
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Agency pilots and cabin crew have no labor rights nor labor principles with their real employer, Norwegian - para 2 above (e.g. union representation and collective agreement).
If the Spanish agency pilots were to strike against Norwegian they could be summarily terminated without recourse. In a "direct employment relationship" striking pilots cannot be terminated without due process (recall the 600 directly employed pilots on strike in March). In the UK the difference between the Employment Act and the Agency Workers Regulations - right to strike vs immediate dismissal.
Kjos does not mind if agency pilots join one or ten unions, he has no obligation to communicate or even acknowledge any agency union, as evidenced by SEPLA's failed attempts.
The Kjos labor scheme circumvents the prerequisites of Article 17. Additionally, Kjos has stated in his application to the US DoT that agency crew are offered the same degree of job protection, terms and conditions as crew hired directly by Norwegian - they are not.
If the Spanish agency pilots were to strike against Norwegian they could be summarily terminated without recourse. In a "direct employment relationship" striking pilots cannot be terminated without due process (recall the 600 directly employed pilots on strike in March). In the UK the difference between the Employment Act and the Agency Workers Regulations - right to strike vs immediate dismissal.
Kjos does not mind if agency pilots join one or ten unions, he has no obligation to communicate or even acknowledge any agency union, as evidenced by SEPLA's failed attempts.
The Kjos labor scheme circumvents the prerequisites of Article 17. Additionally, Kjos has stated in his application to the US DoT that agency crew are offered the same degree of job protection, terms and conditions as crew hired directly by Norwegian - they are not.
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Avenger- the right to strike is a Human right in all western democracies. Circumventing the right to strike is a privalage restricted to Authoritarian states. Europe is currently going through a transitional phase which allows loopholes to emerge for unscrupulous employers to exploit. Fortunately the U.S. government are preventing this exploitation from being a commercial advantage.