Norwegian B787 - LGW based

[pudoc]

Quote Tesco all you like, but the war is on between supermarkets as to who can be the cheapest/best value. Sound familiar to you? Yes, that's right. It sounds like our airline industry these days. Let's say Tesco is the equivalent to a flag carrier, huge and once making lots of money, now there is a rise of Lidl and Aldi, the LoCos if you like.

It won't be long, new Tesco graduates will eventually lose their company car, next it'll be their discount, salaries will go down etc. Then the old Tesco managers will moan on the Supermaket Manages Rumour Network.

Just open your eyes, we are going through a revolution of cutting costs, which is affecting every single industry.

Trust me, I don't wish for this to happen and would never join NAS or accept such conditions, but for my/your sanity it's important to realise it's not just us it's happening to. Doctors/Surgeons on the NHS for one.

[pudoc]

That's true. I've seen the figures myself. And that's all because they are taking advantage of the increasing number of people use their shops. They need the right people to build on that. Compare it to China, expanding massively over the years and offering a load of cash for any button pusher who will join.

[captplaystation]

john smith


"I'm afraid your analogy doesn't work. Aldi and Lidl are two of the highest paying graduate employers in the UK (Aldi is officially the employer with the highest published graduate starting salary). They pay their checkout staff more than the "established" supermarkets too. Why do they do it? Because they need to attract the best people. Again, there's absolutely no incentive for airlines to do so."


Not so many years ago Ryanair paid top shilling to attract pilots to go, and stay, there , rather than have them fleeing to the Orange Mob (at that time operating the same type)

If the career of Supermarket Manager becomes so attractive, more will want to do it, and more competition amongst potential employees opens the door to . . . . .? give it to someone who will accept less.

Sorry to say, but managing a supermarket is not rocket science. I know how much you seem to enjoy coming on here talking down our profession as "semi-skilled-labour" , but really, pray tell me how being a "rising star" in the league of supermarket managers pans out then ?
You are employed at a particular site , where is your influence there ? if it is well placed geographically fine, if not ? you going to have the new by-pass rerouted to pass the door ? I don't think so.
You stock the products that your marque chooses , any influence there then ? nope don't think so. People like the products you sell, prices you charge ? yes, you have a successful franchise under your mighty rule, no ? it flops.
I find it rather difficult to comprehend how being in charge of a one dimensional building, open only during civilised hours, in some way equates in any form to a shift in the vein of what Mr Gammon Flaps has quoted, but then, I wouldn't as I am not a Troll who spends his time on an internet forum titled "PROFESSIONAL PILOTS rumour network", talking down the profession of pilot, or are you just trying to accustom us (and yourself) to the harsh realities of the current world we live in, which will also affect your beloved high-flyers currently managing Supermakets in due course.

I guess that would account for our differing levels of comprehension in the responsibilities/risks of store manager versus aircraft commander :roll eyes: Or is all that matters to you how much the individual in charge of a superstore can claim (with as previously explained, very little influence /intervention on his/her part ) to have passed through the tills on a busy Saturday afternoon. If so, I suggest you hang up any jacket with stripes on the sleeves in your profession & swop it for a grey suit/grey personality.

[Flying Clog]

"...... Pilots as a group seem to have delusions of grandeur; airline captain is simply not a £100k+ a year job. The market recognises that and is applying downward pressure, such that the correct level will be found. I've said many times before that the correct level will be around £30-40k for a captain, with FO as a non-salaried (or recruit-funded) "internship" position."

That's all very well John_Smith, until airplanes start dropping out of the skies.

Which is INEVITABLE with the quality of captain's being promoted and new joiners at these airlines that pay bugger all.

As far as I'm concerned, FO salary should start at 30k and rise to 60+k, and CNs 50k up to 120k. As a minimum really.

Heck, my pay slip last month was 25,000 euros as a 10 year FO! So I'm alright jack!

(willy waving mode off, it feels good to air it though!)

It's all you muppets working for peanuts I'm worried about. I'll be sitting next to you soon, and I'm NOT happy with that.

Single pilot wide body ops is NOT my cup of tea thank you very much

[skyflyer737]

Whether we like it or not, John Smith is 100% correct. It's supply and demand and I am astonished how few pilots understand this.

I have seen both sides to the story. I've been in suits earning a corporate salary 'adding value' at several blue chip firms as a graduate and I've been in the right and left seats of airliners and despite the responsibilities and anti-social hours, the flying job is by far the easiest and I agree that it is semi-skilled labour.

Our salaries and conditions are pure economics. I wish it were not true but it is.

[Cliff Secord]

You know where this idea of being a pilot is semi skilled labor comes from don't you? It because people have some notion that other jobs require far more intellect. Some higher gravitas must takes place elsewhere. That's tosh. A hedge fund manager can make a fortune and be good at it without talking about splitting the atom day by day, as can an MD of any company. It's not high science for these jobs. Even for (God forbid I suggest this??) Doctors. These things people are good at it, the same as flying in aviation you have to be a certain standard of good at it determined by level to not get binned in the sim or crash. The same as they have to be to not be sacked for poor performance.

As to suggest aviation is semi skilled as if running a company or being a vet is some sort of higher zen trait - what absolute rubbish. It's only because you've not done these things you view them in such high regard. It's like a lot in life, you train for some some stuff, you apply it and use judgement. Granted, there are some things that actually do require a true higher mental cognitive gravitas - research science, higher levels of medicine -musical composers. But these guys are rare in quantity often aren't highly rewarded.

Conversely and against the arrogant presumption that only intellect is a measure of higher human perception of what is asirational achievement there are some people in life who could be said by that defination display some truly higher human secretly silent wonder in a different regard who aren't highly paid. Special forces soldiers perhaps, or volunteer workers in Siria.

The one thing I'll agree with John Smith with (amongst all his highly simplistic shakey, broad stroke arguments) is that the aviation pilot role will deteriorate to a 40-50k (equivalent to this year plus inflation to future years) a year role for captain.

[wiggy]

Cliff

Well said.

But yes, like you I think JS is correct in his predictions of where pilot pay will end up.

[bex88]

What a depressing thought. Supply and demand will shape salaries? Hard to argue with that but responsibility and accountability or cost of an accident will also influence it. In my airline we are short, wages are good and they are struggling to find enough "suitable" candidates (whatever they mean by that). The answer seems for us is work harder for the same salary. Good will and motivation go a long way.

Semi skilled? I don't agree with that. I have seen a number of very clever cadets from various backgrounds recently who are way outside of their depth. I think we can sometimes underestimate our skills. Seeing someone who is inexperienced highlights that. Up until then I may have agreed. You can't just throw any human into an aeroplane and expect a safe, efficient operation.

Was it not Stellios that said "if you think safety is expensive then you should see an accident". Safety starts as a culture and ultimately is our responsibility"

[skyflyer737]

I agree with almost all comments regarding getting to a level of competence is the key to an easy life in most jobs and was wrong to say flying an aircraft is a semi-skilled labour job.

However, the thread is mainly about how poor a package NLH are offering widebody crews - and yet they don't seem to have a problem filling the seats with some very capable and experienced guys so why on earth would they pay more if they don't have to?

Supply and demand again kicks in if Rex is right and for £40-£50k no one will do the job. Salaries would then start to rise again as required to attract people to do the job.

Perhaps the reason for my over reaction calling the job semi skilled labour is down to two things: 1: former colleagues in the business world and former students I studied with earning £100k + as consultants / doctors / lawyers / accountants work ludicrous hours (often 100+ hours a week at anti-social times) have studied WAY harder in their professions than I ever did for my flying job and in my view work much harder than most of us as pilots. 2: I get fed up being told by colleagues in the flightdeck we should all earn more while they sit there drinking coffee, playing games on their ipad and later settling down for a 20 min snooze at FL380. I love doing those things too and I hope I can continue earning six figure sums doing but I don't expect that to continue for several more decades. Friends on long haul at BA are often bidding for their next month's work based on how good the golf / wine / shopping / beaches / nightstops etc are at their destintations while being paid £100k+ for the inconvenience. Good on them! I'm delighted but is it sustainable long term?

As for being in charge of a $200m highly complex aircraft with several hundred lives in our hands - yes, this is a large responsibility but there are large numbers of us out there able to handle that responsibility, especially now that these modern aircraft take much of the 'work' away from us in both normal and non-normal situations. Until airlines cannot get their hands on enough pilots, I'm afraid salaries and conditions will drop. Simple economics. It's a shame as the party was good while it lasted.

[vernonthevelder]

But yes, like you I think JS is correct in his predictions of where pilot pay will end up.

Why is that then?

I am sure there are more reasons for it but one part is surely the supply side of the labor where student pilots despite large sacrifices in money, time and distance away from home still sign up. Nowadays also knowing the long term reward is not what it is used to be.

The second and perhaps more interesting here on PPRuNe is the need for airlines to change pilots perception of what fair remuneration actually is. In order to shift the supply curve. (It´s the winner after all in economics isn´t it?) It´s possible to attempt trying to do that, free of charge, using forums like this writing perhaps manifesting itself as ”it´s a job for monkies", “similar to collecting garbage on the street”, “same as driving a bus”,"unskilled", “like a shift in a coal mine in the beginning of the industrial revolution”, "I think it´s a 40k a year job" etc etc...

[swish266]

Selection process

Hi,
I got invited to do the online assessment yesterday. I did the 5 tests today.
Any ideas on how long before the next step? Will it be the sim?
Initially the "screening was supposed to take place in August-September".
Thanks.

[Avenger]

The essence of this debate is "choice" if you are an old guy( or girl) wanting to return to the UK, cut your own grass and spend time at home for less than you've been used to, so what, if you can afford it, what's the problem? Now, on the other hand if you are clawing your way up the ladder with a ruck sack of debt and feel you need more pay ( or are worth a whole lot more), your perspective will be different. We cannot dictate our pay and conditions, as observed, if you don't like it don't apply. The " moral high ground" stance that we should be paid XXX and have XX contracts, the airline is an outrage and shame to the industry is subjective. NAS will only pay what they have to and at the moment they can afford to pay less than others. My daughter moved to a private school as a teacher and doubled her overall package, if she moves back to the state system she will accept a cut.. same job, same workload,,Choice..A quick calculation I made showed if I returned to UK, paid UK tax and lived in my own house working for NAS, allowing for not renting abroad, no second car, no commuting flights I would be just 10K a year " worse off" but I will die in my own bed! I am not defending their stance simply agreeing with others that we wake up and smell the coffee

[JaxofMarlow]

Every now and then JS introduces his rather extreme and negative view of airline pilots and every time he gets the same reaction. His views are not all wrong but they are simplistic.

Supply and Demand does not dictate everything. It provides a guide to the parameters of pay. There will be a point where the bottom is hit and the supply will dry up. Then artificial influences come into play. Just ask a train driver. Higher paid than most FO's, their job is easy by comparison. The thing is on rails so cannot get lost and does not go up or down. There is no shortage of people trying to be one and they go on strike again next month for more money, which they will get. Now let me try to work out what the difference is…

To get the thread a little more on track. The view that a CEO is only responsible for profit and that supply and demand is all that matters is very simplistic. If this were entirely true and were the only drivers we would be seeing prices of all goods and salaries of all employees flying up and down continuously. There are many other influencers at play and some of these are reasonableness, moderation and fairness. These are principles applied by all the best companies and best CEOs in the world as they recognise that shareholder return, albeit vital, is not the only factor at play. An unhappy workforce can cost a business millions and badly hit shareholder return. And that is why Norwegian seek to employ the way they do. They are trying to get the best of both worlds by smashing employee costs and removing the potential for the consequent unhappy workforce to do anything about it.

[Tahitimax]

I did the online assessment last week as well. No news since then.

Any one went through the sim assessment ?
Is is on a 737 simulator ?

[cucuotto]

JS...you are delusional. People will never be happy of just having a job ,they may put it with it for a while. Than they will start sharpening the guillotine..and it will be aristocract's head to fall....be carefull.

[JaxofMarlow]

JS - you are loosing the plot. Can only assume you are looking to amuse yourself on a wet sunday afternoon.

[zeddb]

Everyone knows the glamour is gone, now as soon as the pay is gone too do you seriously think people are going to be lining up around the corner to take out a £100k+ loan to do an unpaid internship for an undetermined amount of time (possibly over ten years) only to then end up with a salary of 40-50k working your ass off with unsociable hours and the total lack of any stability?

I'm afraid that they will. Just look at the number of "cadets" lining up to pay vast sums to Ryanair or CTC or any of a number if these "schemes".

A lot of these spoilt little just want to be able to put themselves on arsebook or twitter wearing a pilot uniform. After two years they get bored then go and work in daddy's business when they realise that it isn't actually as glamorous as they think and that they might have to wait a while before being called captain.

Anyone who thinks there is little desire to do this job and little conception of what it actually entails should have a look in the "interviews and sponsorship" section. The lemmings are falling over themselves to give away their parent's money and if the rest of us get shafted as a result, what the hell do they care?

They don't and management are laughing all the way to the bank.

This should have been stopped about twenty years ago, but, as usual, pilots refuse to stick together, preferring to wave their around at each other and so nothing happened.

Fat too late now. JS is right to get the hell out. I wish I could.

[JaxofMarlow]

I already had in my previous post JS. But then you cap it off with "As they should be (management smashing the work force into submission). That should be one of the main goals of management. The days of companies striving for a happy, well motivated workforce are long gone. People now (and not just in aviation) are just grateful to have a job. Therefore, management would be mad not to do absolutely everything that they can to drive down employee conditions. A cowed workforce unable to fight for their conditions (and unwilling to do anything to effect change) is a wet dream for management and shareholders.

If you really think this is how successful companies are built then good luck to you. I hate to imagine what sort of "manager" you will be but I know with your attitude you will not survive.

There are many reasons for the decline in aviation as a satisfying and stable career and you quite rightly point out many of these. Top of the pile is greed followed closely by stupidity. But to claim that these are desirable characteristics of management today is frankly very sad for someone who is seeking a management career elsewhere.

I have first hand experience of a UK company where its management thought it was invincible and could do what it wanted. It rewarded greed and shut its eyes to the legality of actions for the sake of profit. At one stage not that long ago it was the biggest company in its field in the world. Now, it is an apologetic joke desperately relying on the loyalty of severely depleted staff to dig it back to acceptability.

[MonarchOrBust]

If, my aviation career started when I wished it had at 21, and I joined a low cost airline doing 4 sectors a day, 20 times a month, I too would be looking for a way out. As mentioned before JS, you're the product of too much too soon with no respite in between. We don't all have the same experience as you. Right now I'm in a job that has me flying 2 sectors 3 times per week. I thank the gods every night I didn't make easyJet. I'd probably end up like you. Self-righteous and completely clapped out. And do tell us, because we're waiting with bated breath, what exactly do you intend to do after aviation?

[Clandestino]

Originally Posted by JaxofMarlow

Every now and then JS introduces his rather extreme and negative view of airline pilots and every time he gets the same reaction.

In the days when Danny was the owner of PPRuNe, each and every page was graced with warning that folks posting here need not necessary be what they claim to be and there is risk of their main purpose being seeking reactions.

It would be very cynical of me to suggest that inflammatory posts and trolling are good for revenue from advertisements as they tend to attract clicks.

Oh well, I need to uphold my reputation of cynical , so there.